AI diplomacy is not logical

TLG · November 11, 2001, 09:09

Let me introduce you the "Me-IA-do-not-always-understand-what-the-human-player-wants-so-I-always-reject-his-offers-when-it-happens" :

Having 121 gold in treasury I contact Elizabeth to change 100 of my gold against 10 gold just to see how sterling pounds look like

Well, my advisor was right, they would never accept such a deal since she declined my offer.

TLG
Fixareus promotion tour 2001
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=33104

David Murray · November 11, 2001, 09:13

Well I'd be cautious and suspicious too if someone offered me a deal like that.

Zoetstofzoetje · November 11, 2001, 10:16

They always do that, like, if you offer them 10 gold pieces/turn and want 1 gold pieces/turn. My guess is Firaxis didn't get around to making the AI able to subtract numbers, because such a deal is illogical and unnecessary to begin with!

tishco · November 11, 2001, 10:18

DP

tishco · November 11, 2001, 10:18

what about 20 gold for 1 gold a turn for 20 turns!

Venger · November 11, 2001, 10:24

God I am SICK of seeing $hit like this. I'm still in my first game (can't help it, I kick ass on a big map and am rolling up the AI like a 5 cent whore). But I have seen piece after piece after piece of stuff like this that is clearly the result of shoving the game out the door and up our @$$...

I've noticed that the AI in trading just isn't very smart. Why won't it trade two luxuries for one? Why doesn't it realize a good deal from a bad deal? Why can it be extorted at one time and absolutely retardly indignant another? I can demand and get 15 gold a turn from a Civ with zero in the bank?

Control, control, you must learn control!

Venger

squid · November 11, 2001, 10:34

I don't talk with crazy people. I do not blame her.

Yes, this is stupid.

ixnay · November 11, 2001, 11:08

What I hate is when I ask the AI for a loan and they say "sorry, our treasury is empty"...then I look and they have about 5000 gold in it.

Oncle Boris · November 11, 2001, 11:17

Quote:

[SIZE=1]
I've noticed that the AI in trading just isn't very smart. Why won't it trade two luxuries for one? Why doesn't it realize a good deal from a bad deal? Why can it be extorted at one time and absolutely retardly indignant another? I can demand and get 15 gold a turn from a Civ with zero in the bank?

Control, control, you must learn control!

Venger

Actually, most AIs already have the maximum number of 8 luxuries. Having more will not help them. If you badly need a luxury, just offer 25-50 gold per turn, and most of the times the comp will agree.

And you can ask 15 gold/turn simply because an empty treasury does not mean you don't have revenues.

Peterk · November 11, 2001, 13:26

> God I am SICK of seeing $hit like this

Take it easy. They just didn't account for every stupid thing us users might try and do. The offer is pretty retarded to begin with so I'm not surprised that it fell through a hole in the code somehow. As long as the AI deals with "normal" trades ok, what's the big deal.

David Murray · November 11, 2001, 14:14

.

David Murray · November 11, 2001, 14:14

Yeh, this is a REALLY, REALLY big bug!

It REALLY epitomizes all the flaws in the AI!

I can just imagine the HORDES of Civvers who won't be able to sleep at night because the AI won't give them 10 gold in exchange for 100 and other such realistic, day-to-day agreements!

Yeh, terrible diplomacy system Firaxis!

Akaoz · November 11, 2001, 14:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

Actually, most AIs already have the maximum number of 8 luxuries. Having more will not help them. If you badly need a luxury, just offer 25-50 gold per turn, and most of the times the comp will agree.

And you can ask 15 gold/turn simply because an empty treasury does not mean you don't have revenues.

How many luxuries are there?

-Alech

Pyrodrew · November 11, 2001, 15:44

Quote:

Well I'd be cautious and suspicious too if someone offered me a deal like that.

I would be cautious too... but I would take it. And then when I'm pillaging their towns I would kindly say, "Oh by the way thank you for that loving gift earlier."

Quote:

Why won't it trade two luxuries for one?

I wondered about this too, but besides understanding Oncle Boris' points, Soren mentioned how luxuries are FAR more valuable to larger empires... which makes sense. If I have 30 democracy cities & contact a militaristic civilization with 10 cities... naturally a luxury is going to be far more valuable to the civilization with 30 cities. Additionally, your reputation, culture, & the other civ's attitude toward you also play a role. There seem to be many variables which come into play for trading... not just what is on the table.

When people don't understand something why not just inquire about it in a civil tone? Then if you don't get a reasonable answer start to rant/whine... if you must.

Rust · November 11, 2001, 15:54

I found that in my first game where I did what I said I would and kept all agreements, they made deals with me much easier. But in my new game they just have a smirk on there face and won't trade with me at all no matter how much i want to give them. I think it must be because I broke some military alliances earlier on.

Flash70 · November 11, 2001, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

Actually, most AIs already have the maximum number of 8 luxuries. Having more will not help them...

Not always. In several games I played, the AI did not have many luxuries and accepting my trade offer would have benefited him at least as much it would benefit me.
But still he made absurd demands like asking for two techs, large sum of money and another luxury in return for a single luxury I requested !

This behavior really annoyed me. So eventually what I did was trading my luxuries for money, then spending the money to increase the entertainment.

WyattMax · November 11, 2001, 17:48

@Avenger

Quote:

... first game (can't help it, I kick ass on a big map and a$$

Maybe it is time to move up from chiftain level to a real level ?

Sorry, couldn't resist

Ulfang · November 11, 2001, 18:02

Nahhhh It's us typically stubborn English!! You forgot to say PLEASE!!!

adaMada · November 11, 2001, 18:48

lol

I think this is a bug (deep thoughts

)... should be fixed in a patch. Lol, Soren, if you're reading this, any clue how this manages to happen (I'd think the AI would assign 100 gold a higher value than 10 gold so would accept the offer, based purely on what you've said so far...)? Just out of curiosity, of course...

-- adaMada

Rust · November 11, 2001, 19:30

Patch Readme v1.08
- AI now accepts 100 dollars in trade for 10
-sorry, due to time limitations.....

Adagio · November 12, 2001, 05:49

Haven't tried to make such a trade yet, but what bothers me more (when talking diplomacy) is the AI always want more than they want to give me.

How many times haven't I seen this: They want to talk to me, they propose the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" deal, but the table says this: "They offer World map; They want World map AND one or two techs".

If I want to make a deal, let's say a map for a map, they just get annoyed

even if I have the most knowledge about the world. In some Firaxis chat short time ago (never remember names

) it was mentioned the AI doesn't see who is AI and who is human, but I just can't make this fit right in, because the AI always want more than the other one, if that is so, the AI can never make a deal with an other AI, but I still see AI making deals...how can this be if they both want more than they will give

Grim Legacy · November 12, 2001, 05:57

Seems your culture rating is in the picture too. Check the histograph score. I've noticed that keeping up with the enemies greatly facilitates trade.

Also: betrayal on your part makes them very wary, betrayal on their part makes them very humble.

Adagio · November 12, 2001, 08:31

It's getting stranger now. I just tried to make a deal. The deal was a tech from them for a tech + 50 gold, the adviser said "We're getting close to a deal here", now I added 50 gold (Just to test it...) and now the adviser said: "They will never accept such a deal"...

If this aint strange (ok, it doesn't beat the 100 gold for 10 gold, but it's close

)

Grim Legacy · November 12, 2001, 08:51

Quote:

Originally posted by ADG
It's getting stranger now. I just tried to make a deal. The deal was a tech from them for a tech + 50 gold, the adviser said "We're getting close to a deal here", now I added 50 gold (Just to test it...) and now the adviser said: "They will never accept such a deal"...

If this aint strange (ok, it doesn't beat the 100 gold for 10 gold, but it's close

)

Changed the techs on the table?

Adagio · November 12, 2001, 08:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy

Changed the techs on the table?

Nope, the only thing I changed was adding those 50 gold. And I'm sure because there where only one tech possible each place

Venger · November 12, 2001, 08:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy
Seems your culture rating is in the picture too. Check the histograph score. I've noticed that keeping up with the enemies greatly facilitates trade.

Also: betrayal on your part makes them very wary, betrayal on their part makes them very humble.

As to power affecting trade, so far that's nonsense. I'm the most powerful nation on the map and the AI STILL doesn't accept fair trading. Want to trade a luxury? They want THREE in exchange at this point. Trade a tech? No, they want two techs AND gold. Apparently the AI routine that determines what a AI Civ needs simply takes what you offer and multiplies it...

Now, as to "betrayal" - that may make some sense. However, what constitutes betrayal? Bulding cities on my continent that I decide I cannot leave intact? Sorry, that's not betrayal. Betrayal should be breaking a treaty mutual advantage, not simply peace.

In Civ3, you get two options - war or peace. What if I don't want a stinking peace treaty with you but don't want war either? Doesn't seem possible. Again, still playing my LONG first game, so there may be something I am missing on this particular point.

However, the Aztecs, who have on many occassions demanded something or threatened war, and never had the nuts to do it, shouldn't get any "indignation points" when I finally open an old fashioned Can O Whoopas$ on him...

Venger

Grim Legacy · November 12, 2001, 09:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger

As to power affecting trade, so far that's nonsense. I'm the most powerful nation on the map and the AI STILL doesn't accept fair trading. Want to trade a luxury? They want THREE in exchange at this point. Trade a tech? No, they want two techs AND gold. Apparently the AI routine that determines what a AI Civ needs simply takes what you offer and multiplies it...

"power"? I said culture. Read more carefully next time, eh.

In fact, I think military/population/production power strikes negatively on the bargaining: you get too strong for the opponents taste, and they become reluctant to make you richer.

Quote:

Now, as to "betrayal" - that may make some sense. However, what constitutes betrayal? Bulding cities on my continent that I decide I cannot leave intact? Sorry, that's not betrayal. Betrayal should be breaking a treaty mutual advantage, not simply peace.

In Civ3, you get two options - war or peace. What if I don't want a stinking peace treaty with you but don't want war either? Doesn't seem possible. Again, still playing my LONG first game, so there may be something I am missing on this particular point.

However, the Aztecs, who have on many occassions demanded something or threatened war, and never had the nuts to do it, shouldn't get any "indignation points" when I finally open an old fashioned Can O Whoopas$ on him...

Ya ya, too bad for you. Betrayal is simply going to war or breaking an alliance or any of such pre-defined actions. Territorial harassment, threats and such do not fall into this category. Such is life in Civ. Instead of complaining about it, you could try to harness these means by yourself and know you're not losing any 'trust points'.

Venger · November 12, 2001, 09:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy

"power"? I said culture. Read more carefully next time, eh.

Same diff. I have the most culture too. Why would that encourage them to trade with me anyways? Trading should be done on the parties own best interest, not because they think your culture is cool. Either you need Dye and Horses, or you don't. Either the deal if fair, or it isn't. That's that. [/quote]

Quote:

In fact, I think military/population/production power strikes negatively on the bargaining: you get too strong for the opponents taste, and they become reluctant to make you richer.

Which makes SOME sense, but it's not a zero sum gain either. It's complete and utter stupidity is shown in the post at the top of the thread - 100 gold is rejected for 10. This is SIMPLY RIDICULOUS. No amount of "culture" or "you're too strong" makes 100 for 10 a bad deal. What the deal shows is that the trading algorithm needs major work - this is what we get for not playtesting the game...

Quote:

Ya ya, too bad for you. Betrayal is simply going to war or breaking an alliance or any of such pre-defined actions.

Breaking an alliance is not the same as going to war. That the game is designed to reflect that means the defect is in the game, not in the fact.

Quote:

Territorial harassment, threats and such do not fall into this category. Such is life in Civ.

Same as above. It should fall into the category. The failure to is a gameplay flaw.

Quote:

Instead of complaining about it, you could try to harness these means by yourself and know you're not losing any 'trust points'.

Not sure what you mean here...

Venger

mathgoulet · November 12, 2001, 11:04

I wonder if you could do the opposite, giving 10 golds and asking for 100!

Aiya · November 12, 2001, 11:16

I was playing last night as japanese and my ally, persians, was at war against the babylonians. I was just making sure that my ally was happy with the way the war was going and asked to extend the war (not really needed). But I thought, what the heck.

To my surprise, when I asked them to sign a military alliance, they requested 1000+ gold per turn, 1500 gold lump, and 3 techs!!!! I was like WTF!

It didn't matter, they were still at war. But I got pissed, and revolked all my trades with my ally (saltpeter and rubber). Then proceeded to clean out the map. Stupid Ally, now you die with the rest for being so stupid!