My approach to war in the industrial age

[Monoriu]

I have played civ1, civ2, Smac, CTP1, and CTP2. I have to say that the combat system of civ 3 is the best of them all, and by a wide margin. I don't understand why I keep seeing comments on this board that the combat system is bad, AI gets cheats, tanks always lose to spearmen, cities can't be defended, bombardment is useless, etc.

I have finished a game on Regent level, standard map, 8 civs, with a domination victory. Only one war was fought in the entire game, and it was me against a coalition of 7 AI civs in the late industrial age (everybody using cavalry, infantry, early tanks, artillery, ironclads, frigates, destroyers, some battleships). I was economically the strongest civ, but all 8 civs had the same techs and units.

I want to write about how it is entirely possible to easily win against technologically equal and numerically far superior coalition AI forces. One word before I begin though, I have disabled all air units because air superiority is broken.

I. Be prepared!

I started the war, and I didn't start it until I was fully prepared. Shopping list for starting a war -

a. Technology. At the start of the war I have all the techs for cavalry, infantry, ironclads, and most importantly, communism.
b. Resources. I have 1 coal, 1 rubber, and 1 oil. All 3 squares had a fort built and 2 infantry protecting each tile. The saltpeter and horse tiles are also garrisoned.
c. Cities. All cities have harbours (where applicable), barracks, and all city improvements I could build. The battlefield medicine small wonder is also built.
d. Improvements. Most tiles had railroads, irrigations, and mines. All the border tiles and fort tiles have railroad access.
e. City garrisons. All cities had 2 infantry units as garrisons.
f. Border fortifications. I have fortresses built along the borders. It didn't cover every square, but it covered all the choke points and weak spots (grassland, deserts, plains). Of course, these forts are all garrisoned by infantry units.
g. Naval patrols. I had about 20-25 ironclads lined up along the entire water border so that no incoming ships will get unnoticed.
h. Invasion army. I had about 20 infantry (in addition to all the garrisons), 15 artillery, and 5 cavalry units near my first intended victim.
i. Spare workers and settlers. I have no intention to take enemy cities except those with wonders (no prisoners ). So I had a few settlers ready to build cities on razed sites. Of course, spare workers are also availble to work the tiles of "new territories". Building roads and forts in new territories is very important.


II. Start the war!

I picked my intended victim (Egypt, the second strongest civ in game) and declared war. The rest of the AI nations declared war on me (expected) because they had inter-locking mutual protection pacts (remember, this post is about how to fight wars. Yes I know its a bad example of diplomacy )

III. Start the offensive!

My invasion army at once set into motion.

HOW TO CONDUCT AN OFFENSIVE WITH MINMUM CASULTIES:

a. Form a solid, continuous line of infantry along the border. By solid and continuous, I mean EVERY SINGLE square is occupied so that absolutely no AI units can move through from ANY direction, including diagonally, without killing your units. Every tile of the wall should contain 2 infantry units. One of the squares should contain the invasion army.

b. The invasion army alone (in addition to the human wall) should consist of at least 12 artillery pieces and NOT FEWER THAN 10 FULL STRENGTH infantry units.

c. Have some cavalry units along the human wall, on top of the infantry units.

d. The whole wall should advance as a whole. At no point should there be any holes in the wall. It must be placed so that no AI units can move through because if there is a hole, the AI will try to get through. Make sure that the AI cannot move through diagonally.

e. If you encounter enemy units in the open fields, start combat by opening bombardment, using artillery of the invasion army. No one should attack unless the top enemy unit has been reduced to a strength of ONE. Yes ONE. even if the enemy unit has TWO strength, wait till the next turn and then bombard him again.

f. Then the cavalry units should attack. After they have defeated the enemy units, they should withdraw. NEVER, EVER LEAVE A CAVALRY UNIT OR TANK OUT IN THE OPEN WITHOUT INFANTRY SUPPORT. They should always stay on top, or behind the infantry wall before or after combat. If you don't have enough cavalry and must attack with infantry, do so with any surplus infantry units you have. Make sure that you still have an intact, full strength, 2 infantry per tile human wall left after these battles. Or if the AI has a stack, you can attack with infantry and only use a cavalry unit to kill the last unit of the stack so that your cavalry will be the only one that advances, and you can move it back.

g. Intact Human wall with invasion army should advance again after getting rid of enemy units in the field. All wounded units should withdraw to the nearest barracks, even if they have only lost 1 strength. Wounded units are magnets for AI units.

h. If the enemy counterattacks so that part of the wall is damaged or collasped, plug in the hole with reinforcements and don't advance until the hole is filled. Withdraw if necessary.

i. Move wall and invasion army right next to intended target AI city. This invasion army should preferably sit on good defensive terrain. Why 10 infantry for the invasion army alone? 6 infantry and any available cavalry will attack the city and will be expected to die/take casulties. THESE UNITS MUST BE ABLE TO TAKE THE CITY WITHIN ONE TURN OTHERWISE THE ENEMY WILL HEAL OR RECEIVE REINFORCEMENTS. 2 full strength infantry will stay behind and protect the artillery pieces and the wounded units. 2 full strength infantry units will advance into the razed/captured city to protect the wounded infantry that first advanced into the city AND garrison the city. Trust me, 1 full strength infantry is NOT enough to protect anything.

j. Open bombardment. The goal is to reduce the population of the city to below 6. If the artillery cannot finish the job this turn, NOBODY ATTACKS. Wait until next turn and don't attack until the population is below 6.

k. Once the city's pop. is below 6 and hopefully the enemy garrison has taken some damage, attack with 6 infantry and any cavalry you have. They should win. If they lose, the human wall should stay where they are until reinforcements arrive to attack the city again.

l. Once they have taken/razed the city, 2 fresh infantry units should advance into the city tile to protect the infantry unit (most likely wounded) that first advanced into the city. If the city is razed a settler unit should move forward and found a city (you do have one waiting for the job, right?).

m. In the next turn, withdraw all wounded units to nearest barracks, and the human wall should resume the advance after getting reinforcements as appropriate.

I conquered the world in this fashion. I had no technological advantage, the AI used the same units as I did. They had a huge numerical advantage, but my units killed a lot more AI units this way than they killed mine.

IV. Defend your homeland (land)!

Most of the time, I was facing 3-4 land "fronts". I only had enough forces to conduct offensive in one of the fronts. All the other fronts stayed on the defense. Here is what I do to conduct an effective defence, by effective, I mean I could kill every invading AI unit while suffering minimum casulties and without losing any cities or resources. These aren't steps, just notes.

a. Again, build a continuous, solid line of infantry to protect your homeland. This time they should all sit on forts. If you are short of infantry (I always was), place 1 infantry in hills/jungle/mountains/forests. All others should have 2.

b. Counterattacking is the key to a good defense, don't just sit there and be slaughtered. In addition to my strategies already mentioned (bombardment before attacking, use cavalry to attack then withdraw, never leave wounded units at the front, never leave cavalry units at th front without infantry support), there are a few things unique to defence to be listed below.

c. In defending, you don't need to counterattack everywhere because you are not trying to gain ground. Attack if the enemy is sitting on bad defensive terrain, don't attack the infantry unit sitting on a mountain, because you don't need to.

d. Lure the enemy in. Deliberately leave a hole of your defence line where there is bad defensive terrain open and watch the enemy pour in. Make sure that all good defensive terrain nearby is occupied so that the enemy units will end the turn in bad terrain. Next turn close the gap (so wounded units can't get out), bombard them and slaughter them. Good for luring in enemy units sitting on hills.


V. Defend your homeland (sea)!

It is not economical to form a wall of ships along the coast. So I used a more fluid form of defence.

a. Have groups of 3-4 ships patrolling the coast and try to spread out the groups to spot incoming ships.

b. If you spot small groups of 1-2 ships coming, use 1-2 ships for bombardment, and then melee attack with the rest. It is not economical to always reduce AI ships to 1 strength, but nevertheless bombardment should always be necessary before any melee attacks. What if they have 2 ships and you only have 3? 2 bombardments and 1 melee attack, or 1 bombardment, 1 melee attack, then bombard the second ship. You can always finish the last ship in the next turn.

c. If you spot large groups of ships incoming, use bombardment to weaken them only. Don't melee attack because the AI loves to attack wounded ships. Weaken them until sufficient reinforcements come.

d. Again, don't leave wounded ships in the open. Always withdraw them if given the chance. Ships are precious and expensive.

e. Always use technologically superior ships to melee attack and weaker ships to scout and bombard.

f. Turn the grid lines on. It really helps to know for sure how many ships you can use in the current turn.


VI. Strategy matters

a. I only built veteran units.

b. Watch production so that you only build the units you need most.

c. Aim for enemy resouces! I think there is only just enough resouces for everybody in the game. My guess is, if there are 8 civs in the game there will probably be only 8-10 oil in the game. That means, if you control 4-5 oil/rubber/saltpetter, somebody else in the game is without them. When I was fighting the Indians they kept using infantry. But when I took a couple of rubber tiles I started to see riflemen a lot more often. When I controlled their last source of saltpetter I began to see spearmen appearing.

d. Shorten the line! Manning the human walls is a huge drain on resources. Don't leave "bulges" as it takes a lot fewer units to man a straight human wall.

e. What if you don't have enough forces to form a wall? Yes, it is entirely possible to just send an invasion army alone deep inside enemy territory to raze a few cities. I tried that but didn't like the results, because if I don't form a wall, the enemy will invade and its ugly. It is impossible to defend everywhere and crisis after crisis pop up here and there as the AI moved 10 cavalry units as a stack. They also love to pillage. By forming a wall, I don't have to worry about defending cities, or losing tile improvements to pillaging. I can also economize troops as I only have to worry about what happens in front of the wall, and everything behind it is safe.

f. NEVER, ever move your city garrisons. The AI doesn't seem to have a combat advantage but it DOES seem to know your entire troop dispositions. It is tempting to finish that lone cavalry unit near the front by using one of the city garrisons, but this will be inviting a naval landing from behind.

g. BE PATIENT. This method takes a LOOOONNG time. I often battled hordes and hordes of AI units in the open fields before my wall could close in to the enemy cities. Attack and defend systemmatically.

h. The first priority should always be conservation of military strength. When in doubt, hold back and don't unnecessarily waste troops. Only attack in the open when you are sure you can win. Only advance into an open tile (grassland, plains, deserts)with at least 2 full strength infantry units. Always withdraw wounded units. Use bombardment. Exercise caution. The only time when massive casulties are tolerated is when assulting a city. This whole game is about production: if you produce more units than you lose every turn, you are winning and you are getting stronger and stronger. If you don't have enough forces to attack, just defend your borders until you have massed sufficient units for attack.


This is what I do. Let's hear how other's do it. But several things are sure:

a. combat is not broken. IMHO its a lot better than combat in civ2. The AI is very, very challenging and is very good at both offence and defence.
b. the AI doesn't cheat in combat. It doesnt' have an advantage, beyond knowing where your forces are.
c. bombardment is extremely useful if used right.


I am playing on Monarch level now, currently building up for another world war I may have to change some of my opinion then. Who knows.

[Skanky Burns]

Excellent post

Now a request. Could you post a screenshot of your
- defensive front
- offencive front
- homeland
- the minimap
and any others that would help

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Monoriu
c. Aim for enemy resouces! I think there is only just enough resouces for everybody in the game. My guess is, if there are 8 civs in the game there will probably be only 8-10 oil in the game. That means, if you control 4-5 oil/rubber/saltpetter, somebody else in the game is without them. When I was fighting the Indians they kept using infantry. But when I took a couple of rubber tiles I started to see riflemen a lot more often. When I controlled their last source of saltpetter I began to see spearmen appearing.

You had me until right here. Saltpeter is not a requirement for riflemen.

The AI will continue to build riflemen without saltpeter.

[Monoriu]

"You had me until right here. Saltpeter is not a requirement for riflemen.

The AI will continue to build riflemen without saltpeter."



I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Monoriu]

Excellent post

Now a request. Could you post a screenshot of your
- defensive front
- offencive front
- homeland
- the minimap
and any others that would help


Yes, if somebody can give me a step-by-step newbie tutorial style explanation of how to take a screenshot, and how to post it

[nato]

This is what I do. Let's hear how other's do it.

Here is my fighting technique. It revolves around keeping a few squares safe, and ignoring the rest. It is a very minimalist style compared to yours. (I am on Monarch level btw.)

I keep all my units on as few "safe squares" as possible. I have found lone units get picked off. By keeping everyone together, the strongest defender fights, protecting damaged units.

I have one large stack for attacking and taking cities, the invasion force. Behind them are smaller stacks garrisoning cities or a FEW key points, these are garrison stacks. I try to make as few stacks as possible. This requires less troops and keeps what troops I do have concentrated.

All stacks have enough defenders, Spearmen, Rifles, or Infantry, to be pretty safe from attack. They also have a few fast attackers, Horsemen, Calvary, or Tanks. Garrison stacks are like 4 defenders and 2 fast attackers or so.

The invasion force stack has lots of defenders and a good amount of fast attackers. It also has a lot of artillery. Last game I had 20 Cannons, later 30 Artillery. Cities are bombarded before attacking, often putting every defender down to one red hit point left. Then the fast attackers finish them off and capture the city. Defenders are moved from the invasion force to the city. There has to be enough to make both the newly captured city and the artillery stack safe.

I generally ignore enemy units not in cities. They either wander around or attack one of my strongly defended stacks. This tends to leave near dead enemy fast attackers nearby. Picking those guys off is important. If there is an enemy stack next to my garrisons, first I send in units with one movement point. They kill the near dead enemy, then bounce back to my safe stack since there are still enemy units in the square. When there is only one enemy left, or to pick off loners, I send the garrison's fast attackers. They kill the enemy, then use their extra movement to move back to the safe square.

Like you I also always pull back hurt units so they can heal. The first thing a conquered city builds is a barracks, so it is a frontline repair facility. Also, although every attack I make is a near certain win situation, this goes double for elite units. I never risk them, but always use them over non-elites for a sure win situation to maximize chances of getting a leader. So ironically the elites get the easiest targets.

The key is keeping everyone on a few safe squares. It works great to have safe squares 3 moves away from each other as you conquer enemy territory. This way reinforcements coming in stay safe. Before rails, you can leapfrog guys in in one single turn. Conquering cities has a downside in that it adds to the number of safe squares you must maintain.

All my battles are thus either me attacking near dead enemies, or enemies attacking my heavily defended safe squares. I have killed tons of enemy units and hardly taken any losses this way. I have never taken on the whole world with it, but I have taken on 3 other civs all roughly equal to my own.

One of the cool things is it only needs one big army built at the start, and a small stream of new defenders to garrison newly taken cities. Most of my cities continue building improvements. I like it because it follows the ideas of concentration, economy of force, and that funny Sun Tzu quote about fighting only when you are certain to win.


Ok thats how I fight. The idea of killing lots of enemies while taking few losses is real big to me. Since you mentioned that as well, I thought it was pertinant.

I like your strategy ... but how do you ever get enough defenders to form these walls? That must take TONS of troops. Still once it is established it must be pretty unstoppable. Although you are using maximum infantry and I am using minimum, I think our ways are pretty similar ... slow but certain.

[LaRusso]

do you use mobilization for that huge wall?

[FeathersMcGraw]

This post suggests two changes from "classic Civ" military strategy that I've finally gotten my head around.

1) You might as well build as large an army as you can. Without unit support costs hampering your production, you can (and need to) keep both your borders and your interior well-defended. The weakness inherent in all units means that single defensive units holed up in your border cities won't withstand much, even with superior technology.

2) Single dominant fighting units (against comparable technology) don't really exist any more. In Civ 1, the chariot was pretty much a key to early domination of a continent (you can still see this in SMAC in the form of the Impact Speeder ). In Civ 2, it was the Armor unit. I'd say the closest thing to a "build lots of these and forget about it" unit is probably the knight, but it seems to me that new effective military strategies in Civ 3 absolutely require the use of mixed units.

Other things that I'm just now figuring out:

3) You might as well build roads everywhere. Enemies can't make use of them, and the inherent weakness of units makes maintaining reinforcements/retreat pathways vital. Not to mention, the ones near your cities are also likely going to generate some additional modicum of commerce, too.

4) Some of those useless city improvements aren't so useless. Old school Civ players probably played the city specialization game, where one city with huge production would crank out armies/Wonders, one city could generate food (to be shared via caravans), etc. Your massive production city might not have created enough trade to justify a library before, but now you get the cultural bonus associated with it, which means more territory covered by your empire, extending the zone of control where your enemies' movements are hampered and yours (assuming a road network) are enhanced. Plus, you get to pick up some free border cities now and then.

5) To a large extent, even builders need to adhere to the above, because aggressive computer civilizations don't seem to take either superior military might or technology into account when deciding to declare war. Unless, of course, my advisors were just lying.

[Silver]

the way i fight in civ3 is i build up stacks of 10-15 units, plus 3-4 cannons/art/cats, etc.

i then pick 3 to 5 points on the map/border where i can get to a enemy city in 1 to 2 turns.(its faster when you got mech inf, and tanks tho, compared to musketmen and horsemen.)

i then launch a attack on those 3 to 5 points and take them using the art/cannons/cat,etc to bombard enemy citys to weaken them before sending in my main units. i fortify the units in those cities/points until the resistance is gone, then i launch a coordinated assualt right down the enemy roads/rail. depending on where i begin my assualt i can cut a enemy in two before they can react in force. it works especially well if the enemy is on a contenent like N.America, or Africa.. as they really dont have room to move around, and you can quickly push to the sea.

i do not build a large military force.. i always keep my military under 100 units total. i like making like 500+$ a turn.. as a demo, and military units are a drag on that.

i pull units from the interior cities to support the ones on the invasion, i figure if the enemy is strong enough to throw off a pronged assualt and over run the outer cities im screwed anyways =P

anyways, this strategy is used for a quick and total land defeat of a enemy comparable in size or has a larger military(if your military has better tech, it helps alot when fighting larger foes.)

those of you who say its only viable to take a few cities at a time i think are wrong..

as you can easily rush the enemy, and inflict massive amounts of damage on them.

i have not tested this attack pattern on asia/russia continents, as the comp has not placed me there yet. however i have conquered africa then pushed east to china by doing a three pronged assualt on the zulus, from the north west and the west on 2 differnt roads, and with marines from 2 transports backed by 2 carriers with f-15's from the south west ontol the indian pennisula.

anyways ta ta for now.

[Quint]

The human wall seems a little wastefull to me. I'd rather use the resources to set up a mobile defensive force and kill the computer as he is reaching for me, rather than let him use attacking units to kill my defenders. When I fight I prefer to attack him, not the other way around.

The again my defense strategy revolves around scorched earth in the battle zone so it takes the computer a while to get to me, even with fast moving forces.

[cort]

Originally posted by Monoriu

HOW TO CONDUCT AN OFFENSIVE WITH MINMUM CASULTIES:

e. If you encounter enemy units in the open fields, start combat by opening bombardment, using artillery of the invasion army. No one should attack unless the top enemy unit has been reduced to a strength of ONE. Yes ONE. even if the enemy unit has TWO strength, wait till the next turn and then bombard him again.

f. Then the cavalry units should attack. After they have defeated the enemy units, they should withdraw. NEVER, EVER LEAVE A CAVALRY UNIT OR TANK OUT IN THE OPEN WITHOUT INFANTRY SUPPORT. They should always stay on top, or behind the infantry wall before or after combat. If you don't have enough cavalry and must attack with infantry, do so with any surplus infantry units you have. Make sure that you still have an intact, full strength, 2 infantry per tile human wall left after these battles. Or if the AI has a stack, you can attack with infantry and only use a cavalry unit to kill the last unit of the stack so that your cavalry will be the only one that advances, and you can move it back.

g. Intact Human wall with invasion army should advance again after getting rid of enemy units in the field. All wounded units should withdraw to the nearest barracks, even if they have only lost 1 strength. Wounded units are magnets for AI units.

h. If the enemy counterattacks so that part of the wall is damaged or collasped, plug in the hole with reinforcements and don't advance until the hole is filled. Withdraw if necessary.

moving units as a human wall?!
pardon me but this is the silliest combat strategy i have ever heard of

i am looking forward to match against your like in multiplayer, perhaps you are the reason why they published the game without multiplayer support ; so that you have some time to develop a kind of strategy other than that idiotic "get me more soldiers" of yours..

[narmox]

when you see a good screen, press PrintScreen on your keyboard. This will put the image in the clipboard, and you can paste it in your favorite drawing program (even MS Paint if you want), then save it to whatever format you like...

[Morganstern]

On the topic of CIV 3 warfare, I'm finding that my catapults fail every time against stacks of enemy invaders, even when I have 3 catapults in the city. They also almost always fail when one or two units are on a mountain, which might be explained by the relative height of the catapult and target. Are others getting this result, or am I doing something wrong?

BTW, I agree with Monoriu that the CIV 3 warfare model is very good. On the second level, my units defeat the AI units on appropriate levels.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally posted by cort


moving units as a human wall?!
pardon me but this is the silliest combat strategy i have ever heard of

i am looking forward to match against your like in multiplayer, perhaps you are the reason why they published the game without multiplayer support ; so that you have some time to develop a kind of strategy other than that idiotic "get me more soldiers" of yours..

Who are you? What is your problem?

[nato]

Seriously cort that is a lousy attitude, especially after he went to so much trouble to type such a detailed description.

In any event, it is true that the human wall would take an enormouse investment in troops and resources. I'm much too mindful of economy of force to go for something like that. However, if he actually gets such a thing set up, it sounds like a pretty much guaranteed, nothing-left-to-chance way to wipe out an AI.

In any event, the reason why MP can be so unpleasent isn't different strategies ... its people with attitudes like yours.

[Kc7mxo]

An interesting strategy, and I have used human walls to push annoying non hostile people who i don't feel like pissing off out of my empire.

[SofaKing]

Catapults have been pretty worthless for me. I tried massing 5 or 6 to bombard a city prior to an assault. It didn't yield anything. I haven't made much use of cannons, but artillery is quite effective. In fact, I've been pretty successful with slash and burn, rather than standard land grab invasions. A group of two artillery pieces, a cavalry, and 3 infantry can destroy a ton of terrain. I find a hill or forest and park all the units. The infantry protects the artillery, the artillery beats the jesus out of all of the terrain, and the cavalry hits any targets of opportunity (workers). Once you do it to enough cities, the enemy's economy totally shuts down. The only problem is that before battlefield medicine, the group has a definite shelf life. Fortunately, it is a relatively cheap investment in resources, so you can usualy deliver 3 or 4 groups to the enemy's territory.

[zebulon]

When my enemy has an extensive rail net and a strong military, I generally attack with a rolling artillery/bomber barrage, tearing up rails and roads. I discovered that sending spearheads into an enemy nation without this preparation results in a massive retaliation, since the entire empire can instantanously transport defenders by rail to my breakthroughs.

When on the receiving end I use an alternate strategy: I use my extensive rail net to quickly concentrate artillery on enemy penetration points and then whittle the attackers down for cavalry or armor to mop up.

The trick of course is to not let the enemy capture your stack of 10 - 15 artillery pieces.

I have yet to see the AI use concentrated artillery in such a manner, but I have seen huge bomber attacks. The AI is pretty crafty when it comes to picking weak spots, like when it sends bombers at my rubber and oil production sites.

[Monoriu]

Thank you for all the replies, especially those of you who shared your strategies with us.

I didn't use the "wall" tactic right from the beginning. This is my second game (first game was a disaster). I knew from the start that I would be fighting 1:7. At first I just packed my guys into one single stack and then garrisoned the rest of the borders with some infantry units here and there. As my invasion force moved forward, AI units from 4 (the other 3 were on another continent) different countries poured through all the various borders and they numbered almost 100. I have to move city garrisons, pull back invasion forces, buy units, switch all production to infantry, and for many turns I still didn't have enough units to patch everything up (although I never lost a city). I didn't have enough units to attack all the invading AI units, so I just formed a wall to stop them from going further. That's how the "wall" was born. I soon found that a wall was more effective and economical than having dozens of cavalry running rampant inside my territory, picking off lone units, attacking cities and pillaging improvements.

I had no idea how many units were needed, I didn't count for the last game. But in the current game (Monarch, large map, 16 civs), I am building up for a wall in the anticipated "final battle for world domination". I have almost finished building up for a wall plus invasion army, and the last count of my forces is about 140 infantry, 10 cavalry (no saltpeter), 20 destroyers, and 40 artillery. With all the cities at max population, all with factories, all tiles irrigated and mined with rail, hoover dam built, I have more than a dozen cities that can produce an infantry in 2 turns. Do the math and it is not as impossible as it sounds.

LaRusso: No, I don't use mobolization. I was fighting 7 civs and its impossible to make peace with all of them at once. Even if one of them begs for peace, it will backstab me in about 3-5 turns. So once I have switched to mobolization, there is no way I can turn back. I don't want to be deprived of the ability to build wonders and city improvements for the rest of the game. I don't draft citizens either.

Nato: I like your idea as well. Next time I may try it out. Actually, if I fight a war in the ancient or middle ages, the "wall" tactic is impossible because production is so slow.

Quint: I use 2 kinds of walls: the moving wall for offense, and the static wall for defense. A defensive wall sitting on forts and hills doesn't need as many units as a moving, fighting wall. I was facing 5 different land fronts facing 3 different civs at the beginning of the war. I cannot attack everywhere. I can only attack in one front.

Cort: Silly as it may sound, this tactic utterly destroyed the armed forces of 7 civs united against me at Regent level with the same techs as mine.

Narmox: How to post the screenshot though?

[Jokka das Trevas]

Well, to take out republics and democracies faster, you would do well to attack tatically on harbors and roads connecting the empire (including its connection with OTHER empires)

The loss of luxuries wil make people go mad, and no garrisons to solve this are permitted.

Cities burning all the way.

[Enigma]

I enjoy combat in the industrial age also, but used a very different approach. My preparation was much the same, but how I did it was quite different.

I garrisoned 2-4 units on my *border* cities, cities that can't be reached by calvalry in 1 turn had 1 defender, cities that cannot be reached by calvalry in 2 turns had *no* defenders unless police were needed.

My *offensive* unit ratios were as follows
Infantry 1 part
Calvalry 2 parts
Artillery 3 parts

This allowed for incredibly fast conquering. I was fighting the French, and I kept enemy cities in position so that I could keep the territory behind them.

I was cranking out settlers to use offensively, I would often found a city right next to an enemy city so that my artillery woudn't waste any turns moving. I based most of this strategy around maximizing my use of artillery so that they didn't spend turns moving.

I never used infantry on the offensive, only calvalry. Calvalry will withdraw if it loses a battle, and even when the enemies have 1 HP I frequently lose with infantry.

Communism is a must, I did use the draft to reinforce cities when needed, conscripts are great cannon fodder.

I usually had all of my units stacked in 3 squares, tops. At the MOST. Everything else was in cities where it is less vulnerable to rampaging French calvalry. I rely on rails to reinforce beleagered cities.

I minimize the number of troops in enemy territory, I *always* try to initiate bombardments from friendly territory. This means that my troops almost never leave my empire wide rail web.

I bombard cities until every unit is red and the city is below size 6. Kills a lot of civilians.

This was quite effective against the French, their empire was about 2 times as large as mine, and they had a 3 tech advantage in the late industrial age (I was Americans, on Monarch difficulty). But using Communism and a lot of artillery I perservered.

I lost VERY few units doing this, the French almost never attacked my units. I conquered their core cities in about 8-12 turns, then I treated with them for 20 turns so they would give me tech/money. At this point I had tanks and rolled over them in 2-3 turns.

I always try to get wars over ASAP, I do not like the resource drain or the lack of tech coming in

Disdvantages of my strat as compared to yours-
A concentrated attack could capture a lot of artillery
An assault using mixed calvalry/infantry while finding some way of preventing my artillery from reaching the beleagured city could prove troublesome
Weak against multidirectional attacks
I ended up wanting to raze the cities I killed... but you can't do that in this game =[

Advantages-
MOBILITY!
Speed of conquest
Very few units killed due to calvalry retreating and reusability of artillery
Heavy calvalry is good at countering enemy counterattacks at any corner of your rail empire.

Anyways I am amazed to hear you approached this so differently... cool!

My cities weren't terribly productive, I had very few productive squares in my empire, and bad corruption.

I would probably drastically increase the infantry if I was playing against a human player. However the important thing is that 2/3's of my force is ALWAYS on my main empire rail system (this conquesting was on the same continent) I never really felt it necessary to spread out my defenses.

[jbird]

edit: double post

Jbird

[jbird]

Hmm, most of your tactics are sound, but I too oppose the "human wall" defensive technique. It costs too much, and similar results can be had for cheaper outlays of expense.

Now, here's what I do instead. I make my border hedgehogged with fortresses, on every other square, right along my border. Each of these fortresses has 2 infantry and 2 artillery in them (or 3 depending on the enemy's overall strength), and I try to set them up on the best terrain I can find (or i'll plant trees for the extra defensive bonus in that square). This works best where your culture has pushed your borders out 3 squares from the city itself. The enemy has NO units that can move more than 3 squares. I use this to my advantage. So, the enemy starts on the outside of my border, moves next to the fortress on his first move, one step closer to my interior with the second move, and one further move to the interior on his third move.

This leaves the enemy force within range of at least one fortress' artillery, and also at least one city's worth of artillery. All of this artillery is able to pound the enemy force, which is mopped up by Cavalry garrisoned in the cities (or tanks if you got 'em).

Also, this tactic allows my artillery to soften up any other enemy units even approaching my borders. This causes these stragglers to be out of the fight for effectively 3 turns minimum, as they must take one turn to get to a city, another to heal, and a third to get back to where they were. Also, if you use the artillery to *destroy* the road network outside your borders, this costs them even more movement points to get to anything worthwhile.

This isn't nearly as useful for long fronts as it is narrow chokepoints. I like it better than the solid wall as it is able to use the artillery to do some offensive action to delay the enemy, and my mobile cavalry/tank force can respond to threats and breakthroughs a bit better than a wall can react.

Also, a point for clarity's sake: I don't pursue this tactic most of the time, but only when i've been at peace and allowed to build a massive military. My offensive strategy is *quite* different as well, as I pursue a "battlefield isolation" policy to forcibly deny the enemy the ability to reinforce the city under attack as well as to deny strategic resources to the city or cities in question.

HOWEVER

The main point of the author's original point is exactly correct, imo. Unlike in other civ games, one must *plan* an offensive, and *build* an army. You can't just waltz in with 4 tanks and 3 riflemen and take over the French (although this might be historically accurate, but that's beside the point lol)

Plan, build, execute. (Oh, and have a plan for if it all goes to #$(*#&)

Jbird

[Monoriu]

Wonderful, more people sharing their strategies.

I just want to make one thing clear: I am a newbie at this game. I am not saying that the "wall" tactic is the best. This was just one way of doing it.

I want to share more of my experience.

In my last game I was facing the Japanese in the south, and the Egyptians to the NE. They were allied against me and had right of passages.

Originally I was fighting both of them on two separate fronts. I didn't use the wall then and fought a mobile defence. I stationed units at the Japanese front at intervals and strong points. The Japanese would ignore the forts and mountains, and march through the holes in the defence line.

Then I produced more troops and sealed the Japanese front with a wall so that no one can get through without a fight. What happened next was the Japanese moved their troops into the unsealed Egyptian front and attacked from there, together with the Egyptians. When I deliberately opened a hole in the wall facing the Japanese, some Japanese troops began to move through the hole instead of marching into Egyptian territory.

I think the AI has an objective in mind, probably one of my cities near the Japanese front. However, it doesn't want to fight along the way, so it will move its troops along the shortest undefended route to its objective.

What I am saying here, is that it maybe possible to control and predict where the AI strikes. Say, if I want to relieve pressure on the Egyptian front, I leave a hole on the Japanese front. If I want to concentrate fighting on the Egyptian front, I seal the Japanese front. Kinda like a switch.

[cort]

Originally posted by nato
Seriously cort that is a lousy attitude, especially after he went to so much trouble to type such a detailed description.

In any event, it is true that the human wall would take an enormouse investment in troops and resources. I'm much too mindful of economy of force to go for something like that. However, if he actually gets such a thing set up, it sounds like a pretty much guaranteed, nothing-left-to-chance way to wipe out an AI.

In any event, the reason why MP can be so unpleasent isn't different strategies ... its people with attitudes like yours.

ok guys you are right, i have gone too far. my apologies for the attitude Monoriu.

then again, what i wanted to say is that it will be fun (if fraxis enables us sometime) to play against people employing their counter-AI tactics against humans.

[notyoueither]

I find offensive stacks of 2 to 4 infantry with 2 to 4 artillery and 3 to 6 fast attackers (Cav, Tanks) to be very useful. However, my circumstances have allowed me to be somewhat more flippant in their use than it seems you would approve of.

BTW. I have to wonder whether I have the same game as you guys.

I'm playing Monarch. I have put a lot of effort into diplomacy (every 5 turns I make the rounds, doing deals, singing songs, AHEM, I mean, oh whatever... ) I have never been at war with more than 2 other AI powers. Most of the time they are coming to me asking me to intervene in their trade squabbles or land wars. I find them quite receptive to requests for Military Alliances against so-and-so, thus my enemy is at war with 2 or 3 or 7 other AIs (I think I had everyone in the game at war with the Egyptians, that would be me and about 12 other civs at the time).

This has allowed me to dominate North and South America. I occupy all of North America in my current game (first that I have continued through Industrial Era) and I dominate South America from my nice warm Egyptian cities in the Northern Brazilian plains. The most interesting part of this situation is my Zulu lap dog who cuurently continues to inhabit Central America by my sufferance (I never would have thought it possible )

At any rate, I have found that trade and diplomacy have reduced the need for a military (aside from the intentional excercizes that all young Romans need, like destroying the German civilization). I went most of the game with an effective army (for campaigning, aside from 1 or 2 infantry per city garrisons) of 8 Infantry, 12 Cav-Tanks and 8 Artillery.

I took Paris with 6 Archers right off the bat (they disappeared, only to later make a reappearance in South America). I gutted the Germans with 20 Legions in the Ancient-Midieval period. I gutted the Egyptians with 8 Infantry, 12 Cav, 8 Art in the Industrial period (discovered tanks the turn that I took Thebes). Since then I haven't had to fight a major war. Against the Germans and Egyptians I had to build replacements.

The strengths I mentioned would be establishment (ie. what I normally had). I think I have 5 BBs, 2 DDs and a nuclear sub right now. I also built 4 bombers and 2 fighters out of curiosity.

BTW, it's 1750. I'm building Apollo Program, Seti Program and United Nations at the moment. All the while the AI civs are boiling about spoiling for a fight with anyone but their best friend, Caesar. I must admit that the 20 Babylonian Iron Clads that showed up off the South American colonies caused some concern within certian circles in the Capital. We have embarked on an earnest Naval construction program since that date . At any rate, they sailed on.

[cort]

Originally posted by Monoriu

I had no idea how many units were needed, I didn't count for the last game. But in the current game (Monarch, large map, 16 civs), I am building up for a wall in the anticipated "final battle for world domination". I have almost finished building up for a wall plus invasion army, and the last count of my forces is about 140 infantry, 10 cavalry (no saltpeter), 20 destroyers, and 40 artillery. With all the cities at max population, all with factories, all tiles irrigated and mined with rail, hoover dam built, I have more than a dozen cities that can produce an infantry in 2 turns. Do the math and it is not as impossible as it sounds.

well, once i had a similar situation, i was at war with two of my pathetic neighbors, English and Egyptians, doing a quite well threesome.
all of a sudden russia intervened and my borders were full of hordes of cossaks approaching. i didnot spend the time
to count them but it was probably more than 50.
needless to say, my total unit count was not even close.
so what i did? tracked down the strongest neighbor of russia, bribed him with a couple of techs and the next turn cossaks were on their way back to defend their home country.

if you do not like the diplomacy at all and insist on fighting the war by yourself, i suggest you to build more artillery. since they do not lose any hit points, they are extremely useful both on offense and defense.

and enemy entering your territory is not bad. i mean they cant move, they cant heal. i always prefer fighting important battles within two-three tiles of my terriory rather than on borders unless i am out to city capturing