How Joan D'Arc beat me up without saying a word

D4everman · November 12, 2001, 20:16

Damn! Fifty game years or so and hours of my time down the drain. I'm kinda pissed.

Me: Greece, 1868. I'm doing fine. I have a small but good tech lead and I'm building my spaceship. Through the ages I've had several wars with France and germany. I know there'll be more, but I've been building up a sizable military and getting them ready to go in to battle fast. As a democracy I know i can't keep going in war time for too long.

Well, then Rome, my neighbor to the west comes a' askin' for a Mutual protection Pact. I agree seeing how I'll get some fine Roman Ivory to keep the masses happy. Then Rome gets into war with germany...who is allied with france. Yep, i knew I'd be fighting them again. Germany is really more of a nuisance than a threat. they're on the other side of the planet and the most trouble they cause is sending one ironclad at a time to bombard my shores and then get killed by my battleships. But France....Grrrrr

sinead...I mean joan, has somehow taken her jerkwater nation from the stone age and running a close second to me in tech. She also hates me...really really hates me....since I took three cities from her in our last skirmish. And she's got a whole continent to herself close enough to be a threat. Suddenly about fifteen french ironclads and four battleships hove into view of a small useless city on my coast (that I took from the Egyptians when they goy uppity.) They bombard that city until EVERY single improvement is gone. But I don't care because while Joan's naval force is hitting an insignificant town I'm shipping two transports full of marines, tanks and mech infantry, a carrier loaded with bombers, three battleships, one destroyer and two submarines to her coast intent on giving France such a bloody nose that they'll never wanna screw with me again. I also sent a transport full of marines and tanks, two other battleships, and another carrier to the Germans so I can whoop up on bismarck. Oh, I put up a token resistance to Joans ironclads. Bombing them with planes every turn until they were battered enough to pull out.

Then it happened. War weariness. Crap. Just as I reached Germany! France was closer, but i had to move at a snails pace so my ships could provide cover for the transports and carrier in case she had a ship lurking out there)

And also...maybe Caesar should rent "Gladiator" or something but he is the wimpiest roman to ever live. The romans do absolutely NOTHING but say they declare war on France and Germany. They don't even send a token force to the fight. (I feel like quoting the President "If you're not with us you're against us!")

Well, I figure I've got about one turn before the civil disorder becomes a REAL problem so I try to make peace and call off my attack. No dice.Neither bismarck or Joan will talk to me. Fine. Bloody nose time. I take a german city and raze it. I needed one more turn to have my troops in position to hit France.

Next turn: rampant civil disorder. All of the infrastructure I spent thousands of game years building and HOURS of my time (not eating, not getting fresh air, not getting my ass outta this chair...damn you sid!) Research centers, Colloseums, banks, marketplaces, etc all being destroyed. Firaxis, you really need to tone that down a bit. For Petes sake is not like peace crazed Philadelphians burned the Franklin Institute to the ground in 1944 because they were tired of war.

Another turn goes by...now I'm in trouble. My entire nation is going bananas. Bismarck answers me this time and we make peace. Jerk. But Joan won't talk to me. I launch my assualt force, and I'm pissed off . I take one city and raze it.

Another turn goes by....the sole marine that made it to the city gets whacked when Joan's tanks ride the rails to his position. Then amazingly a settler appears and REBUILDS the city garrisoned with a musketeer. I sue for peace. Joan won't talk to me. Greece is going ape and i can't make it stop until I can make peace!

Next turn. Now i'm really mad. Even if the civil disorder stopped right then so many improvements have been destroyed its gonna suck trying to salvage my civ. and Joans only just behind me in building the spaceship. Crud! She still won't talk to me. I launch my second assualt. I destroy the city she just rebuilt, blast the next one with my bombers and unleash the marines on it, razing it. HA! Now I'll bet the cue ball will listen to me.

Next turn. Nope. she won't. I've got cities starving now. No choice. I'll have to restart from my last save and NOT agree to Rome's stupid pact. But it raises a question....a warlike civ can defeat a more powerful peaceful civ just by declaring war! Think about it. Once war is declared you're...at war! And even if Joan didn't attack my civ would break down from war weariness. All she has to do is NOT make a peace agreement and the peaceful civ will tear itself apart. Keep in mind i had police stations, military academy and Universal Suffrage and still I couldn't control the disorder or make peace. I can't believe that. There has to a way around that and if not the patch better fix it. I shouldn't have to switch governments just because I'm at war for a short period (and that would have done the same damage...the five or six turnsd of anarchy would have wrecked infrastructure)

I hope someone has some advice on how to handle this. Heck, I hope Soren reads this and gives me an answer. My leave is OVER tomorrow and I'd really like to finish at least one game before its back to the real army!

Malkuth · November 12, 2001, 20:25

Dude, from what im reading on the boards it sounds like were the beta testers for this game. So it should be fixed if we put up a big stink. Even though I have not reached your stage of the games, theirs still some annoying things going on in earlier years too. Sounds like Im not going to go to Democracy though, not after what you just said.

I am having fun with the Early years of my civ though. Blast of a war with the Azteks, Swordmens, Musketeers, pikemen, yippeee.

Ballz1998 · November 12, 2001, 20:31

cause hardly any problems... keep all your troops at home to fend off her attack and your citizens probly wont be annoyed. It seems like the more troops you have outside your (or an allies) borders the more war weariness there is. I waged war with the egyptians for a long time and only allowed a few units to go outside of my borders.

playshogi · November 12, 2001, 20:40

No, it doesn't matter. If you have a mutual defense pact and that 2nd nation get involved in a war, the game rules DEMAND that you declare war on the aggressors. You CANNOT renege on this. Since you've declared war, war weariness becomes a BIG issue if you're a democracy. I guess, I was lucky, I was able to make peace before civil disorder got out of hand. However, I won't agree to any mutual defense pacts in the future.

Sevorak · November 12, 2001, 20:42

Sounds like Communism time to me.

If you have to make war, don't stick to a representative government. The +1 trade isn't worth all your war weary citizens turning your cities into scrapyards.

-Sev

Venger · November 12, 2001, 21:07

Sev -

My problem with this is on two fronts:

1) Communism is morally bankrupt and I cannot bring myself to use it, even in a game.

2) A democracy can create the most powerful unified war machine the world has even known

Civ3 would do well to differentiate between the tolerance of a soceity for aggressive opportunism and self defense. Supposedly the game notices this - starting a war is supposedly harder on the society than not. But to saddle a democracy with war weariness arbitrarily is kinda crappy...

Venger

GNGSpam · November 12, 2001, 21:17

I love how people complain about the computer using very human tactics.

One example is everyone is po'ed that they build cities right next to your border.

I do the same thing in an attempt to culture capture their cities and in general push back and contain their culture expansion

Heaven forbide the computer do something intelligent

This also is an example of just smart play on the computers part. If you want a historical equivlant think Vietnam v the US. Their using war weariness against you. Your unable to control their land obviously, only destroy portions that they rebuild, and it would seem like your own citzens are doing more damage to you then your doing to her.

Just smart play.

The best suggestion unfourtantly is switch to Communism. You probably should have done this on the onset of war.

In the meantime, DONT LET CIVIL UNREST SIT. Go through, jack up luxuries, turn people into entertainers. Just got through everycity and click on the city in the larbor distrubtion screen. Itll adjust it so you have enough entertainers to keep city in order with optimal food production. You may still have starvation, but hey, war calls for sacrafices, and at least you keep the improvements working.

MrBlud · November 12, 2001, 21:19

Mutual protection packs are tricky. I have only agreed to one because the civ (england) is also allied with Russia and they have a whole continent to themselves. If anyone attacked them they would have 3 civs against them and the only ones that could wage a land war would be against me. Which would be foolish because I have a mechanical infantry fortified in each city and a wall of fortresses around every entrance in to my Civ. So it would be a useless war.

mharmless · November 12, 2001, 21:19

Quote:

Another turn goes by...now I'm in trouble. My entire nation is going bananas. Bismarck answers me this time and we make peace. Jerk. But Joan won't talk to me. I launch my assualt force, and I'm pissed off . I take one city and raze it.

Quote:

Next turn. Now i'm really mad. Even if the civil disorder stopped right then so many improvements have been destroyed its gonna suck trying to salvage my civ. and Joans only just behind me in building the spaceship. Crud! She still won't talk to me. I launch my second assualt. I destroy the city she just rebuilt, blast the next one with my bombers and unleash the marines on it, razing it. HA! Now I'll bet the cue ball will listen to me.

Yeah, that sounds like a defensive war to me...
They bombard some cities, so you attempt some genocide...

I can see why war weariness was a problem for you in this instance. The only times I've gotten away with offensive and genocidal wars as a democracy has been against civs that attacked me first and razed some of my cities.

Citizens do not seem to ever tire of a defensive war. As long as you are inside your borders, no problem. Hell, for that matter a mutual defense pact will not trigger as long as you are killing their units inside your boarder. But the moment you take the fight to them, you are engaging in an offensive war and will have to deal with unrest and mutual defense pacts.

Sevorak · November 12, 2001, 21:22

Venger,

If you can't bring yourself to use Communism, don't get into extended wars. I do all of my warfare in Republic or Democracy, but I make them short and directed toward small, specific objectives, and I sign peace often to keep the activists off my back.

Sure, Democracies can produce the most powerful war machines - but how will the people at home react to war? That's the big issue, and activists would scream a collective howl of rage if, say, the United States declared war on Mexico without provocation and captured cities and killed hundreds of thousands of Mexicans. (some people would argue this has already happened, but I wouldn't have called the US a modern democracy back then).

One thing though - Mutual Protection Pacts appear to trigger "offensive-war" war-weariness since you're declaring war on someone else. IMO, it should trigger "defensive-war" war-weariness, which gives you happier people at the beginning and lets you carry on war for a lot longer. Since you're simply aiding an ally, preserving civilization as we know it, defending freedom and democracy, etc, etc, etc.

-Sev

Monoriu · November 12, 2001, 21:28

Everman, why don't you use communism?

I am actually very happy about reading this. Ask yourself, if you are fighting the AI, and you know that his cities are going up in flames, and all he is doing is sending two transports of troops attacking one city, would you sue for peace? Nope. The AI is doing the smart thing. I love games with smart AIs.

Ludwig · November 12, 2001, 21:48

As late in the game as it was here, you should have plenty of funds. Couldn't you just have set your science spending to zero and used all your money for happiness? That should at least have kept your core from rioting. Under democracy, I've found that the cities that stay in riot mode when I do this are typically the cities that are only producing a shield or two anyway, due to corruption.

Sure, no science for a while, but once your cities are under control you won't be so desperate for peace. When you're desperate for peace it never seems to come...does it?

D4everman · November 12, 2001, 22:03

I love how people complain about the computer using very human tactics.

GNGSpam, I shoulda explained better....I'm not pissed about France beating me....I'm pissed because now I'll be up all night finishing this game. The "Just one more turn" thing has had its hooks into me for awhile. About the computer's tactics....when I realized what was happening I was impressed. Not happy about it, but impressed. Joan D' Arc pretty much had my entire MIGHTY nation grinding to a halt without really doing anything.

However I do think the War Weariness is a little high. I can understand research slowing down, maybe tax revenues halved and a few riots in some cities...but EVERY city going nuts and destroying things? And its a little unfair for it to happen when you can't make peace. I just think the WW should be toned down a bit.

In the meantime, DONT LET CIVIL UNREST SIT. Go through, jack up luxuries, turn people into entertainers. Just got through everycity and click on the city in the larbor distrubtion screen.

That doesn't work with War weariness. The only way to stop it is to end the war. I tried it.

mHarmless:

They bombard some cities, so you attempt some genocide...

I "edited" part of the story. You see, I reloaded the game a few times to see if there was something I was doing that I could control to stop the weariness. I even tried for peace before my attack force was launched from my shores. I got frustrated that I was being shoehorned into this disorder, so I thought maybe if become completely ruthless they'll (the Germans and the French) roll over because I'm crazy. Otherwize I'd never raze a city. My entire game has been fighting defensive wars and trying to stay at peace. But in the long run, its just a game....geez, its not like i REALLY burned an entire city to the ground killing the inhabitants.

Everman, why don't you use communism?

I suppose I would have if i was going for a war time strategy. But I was....am...hoping for a space ship win and Democracy seemed good for that kind of game. With the exception of the French and the Germans I get along with every other civ. Yeah, the Japanese are pissed at me but we still manage to trade and make peace most of the time. The egyptians are "annoyed" with me but thats only because I kicked their ass way back in medieval times and stopped their expansion. (and thinking about it, Cleopatra has tried to set me up! After a long period after our war I asked China if we could end the trade embargo against Egypt. I wanted to get some luxuries from her....then Cleo asked ME for a Mutual Protection Pact. I turned her down because Egypt has been at war with SOMEONE throughout the game. An MPP with her would put me at odds with everyone.)

Sev:

One thing though - Mutual Protection Pacts appear to trigger "offensive-war" war-weariness since you're declaring war on someone else. IMO, it should trigger "defensive-war" war-weariness, which gives you happier people at the beginning and lets you carry on war for a lot longer. Since you're simply aiding an ally, preserving civilization as we know it, defending freedom and democracy, etc, etc, etc.

I agree Sev. I didn't want to take any cities from my foes, but I'll admit I wanted to weaken France. They were getting too strong, they were too aggressive and they were too close to me. Democracy doesn't mean "stupid." If the romans looked like they were gonna be trouble earlier in the game I would have tried to cripple them too.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify....I think its great that the AI could be so devious, but I think the War weariness is too high. Thats justt my opinion, but I hope they tweak it a little to make it less of a problem. On a large map you'll be neck deep in anarchy before you even get to your enemy! (like me)

A question...does switching to War Time footing on the Domestic Advisor screen have any effect on Weariness? If so then its really a goof on my part and a clever plan for Joan.

Enigma · November 12, 2001, 22:13

Argh, I typed a long post then accidentally deleted it. Democracy's war weariness it totally reasonable purely for balance reasons, Communism is the late game "war" government, Democracy is the "peace" government.

Democracy is WAAY too good not to need to have to be balanced out w/ war weariness... you should be able to fight defensive wars well anyways.

yin26 · November 12, 2001, 22:18

Yes, in my initial testing of the game I came to the conclusion: "Don't enter a Mutual Defense Pact unless it's with the Top Dog." And so I would now and "...and if you *are* the Top Dog, don't enter one for any reason."

In fact, this makes sense. If you want to enjoy the fruits of Democracy, you have to avoid war except for those in which you can Blitzkrieg and get it over with fast (sound like the U.S. a bit?). While I think Firaxis might have gone a bit far with the concept, it's still quite cool. Basically, once you switch to Democracy, you've got to go for a different kind of win than through war.

Oh, and I *love* that you can't simply ignore your pact.

yin26 · November 12, 2001, 22:20

Also here's an idea: If you plan to go to war as a Democacy, have your ships absolutely loaded with material just off the enemy's coast/border so that the MOMENT war is declared, you are already there. Like the aircraft carriers hanging out in the Gulf.

You probably would have gotten the desired result if you didn't have to wait during war time for your ships to cross the ocean.

yin26 · November 12, 2001, 22:22

As I understand, unlike in Civ2, taking units out of the city does *not* cause unhappiness, right? (not talking about the units that give you stability in the first place, of course). It this right?

klesh · November 12, 2001, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger
1) Communism is morally bankrupt and I cannot bring myself to use it, even in a game.

You sir, deserve the whooping little Joanie is giving you then!

-FMK.

Kc7mxo · November 13, 2001, 00:00

War wearyness is a hassle. Especially when they won't talk to you.

And razing cities is the smartest thing to do. Do I want to capture some crappy worthless city on japan's border so they can recapture it in a couple turns and take a huge friking chunk outa my treasury?

"Ahh, we have at last captured the japanese's port of Nantucket. Quickly men, take 1000 gold from our treasury and ship it over there in time for tea!"

What? Who would put their fricking treasury in a captured city?

Venger · November 13, 2001, 00:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Enigma

Democracy is WAAY too good not to need to have to be balanced out w/ war weariness... you should be able to fight defensive wars well anyways.

The problem is, what constitutes a "defensive war". If you are attacked first? Well, does that mean you can defeat those units but not solve the problem at it's source? That means a democracy cannot fight in WWI, WWII, Iraq...

I think war weariness would work better as defined as a long war with no movement. I don't care WHO it is, nobody tires of success, and a democracy rolling over an opponent will not suffer war wearniess. However, losing unit after unit with litter reward far from shore, yeah that ought to trigger war weariness.

But would Pearl Harbor consitute a defensive war or offensive war? If it's an offensive war as soon as we go to Japan and Europe, it's broken...

Venger

Venger · November 13, 2001, 00:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh

You sir, deserve the whooping little Joanie is giving you then!

-FMK.

Hey, it's not me getting beaten by the French. $hit, you know it's a game if the French are beating up somebody...

And someone in Volgograd ought to know what a corrupt and reprehensible form of government communism is...

Venger

Setsuna · November 13, 2001, 00:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
"Ahh, we have at last captured the japanese's port of Nantucket. Quickly men, take 1000 gold from our treasury and ship it over there in time for tea!"

What? Who would put their fricking treasury in a captured city?

War weariness is an interesting idea. It ceases to be interesting right about the time your people decide that steam rolling over an aggressive foreign country warrants destroying their own homes and setting their hair on fire.

Larz Smith · November 13, 2001, 00:59

So its not the French who are the real threat its the "allies" in Rome. Ive done the same trick myself a few times in the last game I played....basically my civ went 3000 years without a war, but come in the 1700's I realize that I need another source of iron when 1 of my only 2 source ran out.....so I signed a few protection pacts and turned my eyes toward the lone English settlement with iron fairly close to my borders.....I take the city in 2 turns and then sue for peace with the British....then I sit back n watch the rest of the world sign pacts and turn on poor England and flex their military muscles while I sit back at peace and race ahead to win diplomatically

WhiskeyJuvenile · November 13, 2001, 01:33

I haven't noticed that a war economy actually does anything, but that might just be me.

I never raze cities, and I've yet to have a problem with that. Just flood troops in, and use that new base as a new base of ops. Great for post-flight/airport scenarios, and also speeds up rate of movement... i guess...

dexters · November 13, 2001, 01:41

For your money, go with Republic. Civil disorders cause less harm to your civ.

David Murray · November 13, 2001, 03:33

Why don't you guys try out the "Fascist patch" (in the Civ3 Files section). It adds a fascist government type, which might be better at waging war.

I wish fundamentalism hadn't been taken out...I mean, four governments in the original game is hardly enough of a choice. A military dictatorship govt., a kind of updated despotism for later in the game, would be quite nice, too.

LaRusso · November 13, 2001, 10:13

heh
d4everman...did you try conscripting? it adds to discontent.
my mighty greek democracy waged a 20 yrs war against egyptians in a grand coalition. they razed one of my cities, there were massive battles, i conscripted a LOT (at least twice per city) and i starved my pop with some massive betty garble like entertainment but we eventually won. there was genocide aplenty. well war is hell and make sure you do not have to wage it unless you can score a decisive one.

klesh · November 13, 2001, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger

Hey, it's not me getting beaten by the French. $hit, you know it's a game if the French are beating up somebody...

You are correct there!

Quote:

And someone in Volgograd ought to know what a corrupt and reprehensible form of government communism is...

How old are you? I would presume that you are more fammiliar with how corrupt and reprehensible a form of government State Capitalism is.

-FMK.

LaRusso · November 13, 2001, 11:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger
And someone in Volgograd ought to know what a corrupt and reprehensible form of government communism is...

yup, any government that changes the name of the city to volgograd deserves to be wiped out

Guynemer · November 13, 2001, 15:09

"How Joan D'Arc beat me up without saying a word"

That sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

Seriously though, reading through this thread, people seem to be having far more trouble with wartime democracy than I do... since switching to Demo, I've only gone to war once, and it was declared on me because I refused the Shaka's demand for saltpeter. It took a while to wipe him out, even with almost everyone else pitching in, but I never had any war weariness. How much infrastructure did you have? I had access to six luxuries plus every happiness improvement and wonder in my cities, all but one of which were size 12... perhaps you just need a completely mad pro-happiness set-up to survive war weariness?