Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese - Page 6

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 07:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Regarding Wonders and Triggering the Golden Age:

I believe we are starting to have a problem here:

- If Zealot is right and Wonders are not an easy way (at least not as easy as winning a battle with a UU) to start GA then the Portuguese Civilization is bound to become handicaped.

Thats exactly what I've been talking about.
It seems that the "date" of a GA to trigger is also related. For what I read, the Americans have a great difficulty in triggering an early GAwith wonders, since their UU is the late F-15. The same happens with the Germans, or even the French. On the other hand, Civs like the Egiptians or the Greeks usualy have an early GA if they build a wonder with the needed atributes. But it's still far more expensive, slow and difficult to trigger a GA with it in the place of a victorious UU.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Regarding the Nau (or Nao as it seems to be the prefered name):

Again, this is the opinion of someone who never played CIV III.
However, I see the Nau much like a pretty armless (ie no attack points) big carrier ship (ie, with one or 2 more carry points than the caravel) and maybe quicker than the caravel (I can accept it is not as accurate as the rest).
The problem I have with the Portuguese UU as it is proposed in the main thread is that it is much weaker than the Dutch's in all the aspects, when, to be accurate, it's not that clear that it was. The Portuguese were much tied with the Dutch when accounting all the battles they won against each other.
But as a pro-expansion, non military unit (I know some don't agree with this particular point) I whould prefer a
Nau like this 0:2:5 (5).

Ecowiz, keep it Nau.

And forget about the idea of an armless ship. Just forget it.
Now, about those battles against the Dutch, we could do a little research on historic battles, and make a comparison on how is going to be the Dutch UU. And then discuss on how tweeked should the Portuguese UU be.

As for now, I propose that we start thinking on either the Templar, 5/3/2, needs horses and feudalism; or the Nau, 1/2/5 (4), needs navigation, and acts like a Galleon when magnetism is discovered (ie, doesn't get lost when magnetism is discovered). This will make the portuguese to have a unit like the galleon, but before anyone else can, since the others only have caravels. And the Nau should not need an upgrade to the Galleon.

Jay Bee · December 12, 2001, 08:18

No, call it nao! (he, he, sorry I couldn't help it)

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 09:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee
No, call it nao! (he, he, sorry I couldn't help it)

I think someone is being provocative here...

I propose we start spaming on the Spanish forum, just to piss Jay Bee! And in portuguese!

Jay Bee · December 12, 2001, 09:15

Yo won't piss me he he, I have invited you all to visit several hundred times already. Only you came, but disappeared shortly thereafter

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 09:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Only you came, but disappeared shortly thereafter

Maybe it's because some of us have a job...

Right JayKay?

And thank you for your invitation on spamming! I'm needing some more posts to get my own avatar!

Jay Bee · December 12, 2001, 09:45

Despite the job, some of you visit the Civ3 quite often

I did not invite you to spam but to contribute to Iberian discussions

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 09:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Despite the job, some of you visit the Civ3 quite often

Hey, it's our duty as good Apolytoners!

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee
I did not invite you to spam but to contribute to Iberian discussions

What? No spam?

Then I'm not interested, thank you.

And I really need to get back to work...

JayKay · December 12, 2001, 10:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
Maybe it's because some of us have a job...

Right JayKay?

Indeed, Zealot! You speak the truth!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

JayKay · December 12, 2001, 10:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
As for now, I propose that we start thinking on either the Templar, 5/3/2, needs horses and feudalism;

Shouldn't the Templar require Iron too?

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Jay Bee
I did not invite you to spam but to contribute to Iberian discussions

BTW, what kind of discussions do you have in mind, my friend?

Quote:

Originally posted by JayKay
Shouldn't the Templar require Iron too?

Well, if the knights require Iron, then the Templar should too. I don't remeber right now. I haven't played Civ 3 for over a week!

And we need to find a more appropriate name for those Portuguese knights. The real Templars were disbanded shortly after the end of the Christian crusades.

JayKay · December 12, 2001, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
Well, if the knights require Iron, then the Templar should too. I don't remeber right now. I haven't played Civ 3 for over a week!

Well...The Knights do require Iron, of course, or where did they get the metal for swords and armor?

Why don't you play Civ 3 for a week? Don't you like the game?

Well...as a matter of fact, even i thought of droping the game since the combat system is more like a casino roulette!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

Zealot · December 12, 2001, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by JayKay
Why don't you play Civ 3 for a week? Don't you like the game?

Well...

I like it, but don't forget that I can only play at work!

And I'm getting more and more work!

On the other hand, the good news is that I already have cable internet at home!

Weeeee!

Ecowiz Returns · December 13, 2001, 10:30

So, what will it be?

A 1/2/5 (5) Nau or a 5/3/2 Templar_like Unit (we have to find a name for these guys - problem is I don't seem to remember any)?

I vote for the Nau

Reasons:

More representative.

Better for a Maritim Expansionist Civ as it was the Portuguese.

Templar_like Unit is not very representative (we have no heroes that among such fighters).

However, I accept any argument based on the strategy problems
that may appear in Civ III, with the Nau, because I didn't play the game, yet. If everyone agrees on those, I will drop my vote.

Another thing
If we decide for the Nau we have to guarantee these characteristics, otherwize as soon as a Galleon appears the Nau is obsolete, which is not that historically correct.

JayKay · December 13, 2001, 11:01

These are characteristics of the Caravel and the Galleon:

Caravel:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 3
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 3
Obs: Danger of sinking in ocean squares

Galleon:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 4
Cost: 60
Transport Capacity: 4
Obs: No Danger of sinking

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Another thing
If we decide for the Nau we have to guarantee these characteristics, otherwize as soon as a Galleon appears the Nau is obsolete, which is not that historically correct.

Ir order to prevent this i propose the following characteristics for the Nau:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 4 (was 3)
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 4 (was 3)
Obs: No Danger of sinking (was Danger of sinking in ocean squares)

This way the Nau will be mostly like a cheaper Galleon!

Do you think it's a too powerful unit for it's time? Or maybe unrealistic?

What do you guys think?
_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

carioca · December 13, 2001, 14:16

Quote:

Originally posted by JayKay
These are characteristics of the Caravel and the Galleon:

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 4 (was 3)
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 4 (was 3)
Obs: No Danger of sinking (was Danger of sinking in ocean squares)

This way the Nau will be mostly like a cheaper Galleon!

Do you think it's a too powerful unit for it's time? Or maybe unrealistic?

Looks fine, but if that doesnt work, go with Banderantes
2/3/1 treats all squares as roads

Ecowiz Returns · December 14, 2001, 05:58

Jay Kay's suggestion looks fine by me too.

Zealot, I believe it is your call.

Question: Should we open this question to another thread, with a poll, so that everybody may vote?

If so, Zealot could prepare an explanation about the Knights of The Order of Christ (or the Post-Templar Knights, or the Knighs Former Known as The Templars...

).

Jay Kay, can you prepare the Explanation about the Nau?

About the Bandeirantes - It's a nice idea, carioca, but i have a feeling it would put the Golden Age, again, after the time it should be, ie, the end of the Medieval Age. But, maybe in Civ it is not the case.

What do you think: should it also enter the poll?

Maybe we can mature the idea a little bit: for instance, everybody posts here the description of the UU (carioca, you could do the Bandeirantes), refering the historical context, and the strategic implications, the required techs and resources...; then we put them is a new thread.
What do you think?

Zealot · December 14, 2001, 13:36

I've been watching the Civilopedia entry for the galleon, and made a little research about the portuguese ships too.

My oppinion is that the Nau is like a galleon, but it was used by the Portuguese before other European countries. But to be honest, I think that by the time Brazil was discovered, Magnetism (or what is described in the Civilopedia as such) had already been "discovered".

In short, the Portuguese had better caravels and galleons than others for - I think I can say - a couple of centuries.
Now, to make just a UU, and since the Nau is more useful than a caravel,

we have to compare the Nau with the galleon in Civ 3.

So I propose that the Nau should be the Portuguese UU when Navigation is discovered, doesn't get lost (since they discovered the Azores around 1420, and that's pretty ocean tiles around those islands

), isn't replaced by the galleon, but has the same price as the galleon (so that one can still build a caravel, which is cheaper, since it was also used by the Portuguese), AND has +1 movement AND +1 transportation capacity than the galleon. This bonus is extremely necessary to reflect the large number of colonies founded in both Western and Eastern Africa, India, China, Indonesia and Brazil, in such a short amount of time.

Case closed.

I don't have time to make a research for the knights. Read the url I posted about them in page 2 (I think) on this thread.
Now, whose call is it now?

Ecowiz Returns · December 14, 2001, 13:56

I believe it is our call now.

What you wrote makes perfect sense to me.

However, what you are proposing is a UU like the Dutch's, only available earlier to the Portuguese.

Come to think of it, that also makes perfect sense to me!

The only thing I didn't understood was this:
- Would you prefer such a unit over the "Templars"?
or
- Are we keeping the idea of a poll?

Back to you, Zealot.

Zealot · December 17, 2001, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
The only thing I didn't understood was this:
- Would you prefer such a unit over the "Templars"?
or
- Are we keeping the idea of a poll?

Gee, I'm feeling like the boss around here!

I don't have enough time to research anything. But I don't think we need to make a poll.

About the Dutch UU, a few days ago, I read that they were still discussing how should the unit be like. So, if they haven't reached a common oppinion, we'll just post this on the thread of the extra-pack civs with our Nau before they do!

Now go find out how the Dutch are doing! I'm ordering you!

JayKay · December 17, 2001, 07:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
...AND has +1 movement AND +1 transportation capacity than the galleon.

Aldo i do agree with your historical documentation, i must say i totally disagree with your proposal to the Nau characteristics, since +1 movement than the galleon would make the Nau faster than the Ironclad (not likely) and with the same speed as the Destroyer/Battleship/AEGIS (totally unlikely)!

I think my first proposal to make the Nau a cheaper Galleon would be more balanced and (perhaps) accurante!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

Zealot · December 17, 2001, 07:57

Quote:

Originally posted by JayKay
Aldo i do agree with your historical documentation, i must say i totally disagree with your proposal to the Nau characteristics, since +1 movement than the galleon would make the Nau faster than the Ironclad (not likely) and with the same speed as the Destroyer/Battleship/AEGIS (totally unlikely)!

I think my first proposal to make the Nau a cheaper Galleon would be more balanced and (perhaps) accurante!

Ok, JayKay, i'll have to go your way on this subject.
I won't say anything else, since I already had written a post about it, but I managed to make it vanish...

JayKay · December 17, 2001, 08:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot

Ok, JayKay, i'll have to go your way on this subject.
I won't say anything else, since I already had written a post about it, but I managed to make it vanish...

Anyway, i would like to know more about those "Templars"!

_________________________________________________

Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

Ecowiz Returns · January 23, 2002, 12:18

Hey guys! Where are you?

Zealot, have you conceded on the Caravel?

No more Portuguese on Apolyton?

Let's get back to business!!!

I tried to find pictures of D. João II in the Internet but they're all diferent and some are really ugly.

I think I've saved them at home. I'll see if I can find them to show you.

Any news on the Templars?
Do you think we should join more cities to the Portuguese list? Some Civs have a huge lot of them!

Zealot · January 23, 2002, 12:51

Whatever you want, guys!

Just give some values to the Nao, say in wich tech you can have it, and how much it costs.

Whatever.

Civ 3 is dead. Long live Civ 3.

Ecowiz Returns · January 24, 2002, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot
Just give some values to the Nao, say in wich tech you can have it, and how much it costs.

Let's see...

Whe could have something like this:

Unit: Nau (we all prefer in Portuguese, don't we?)
Triger Tech: Navigation (as Zealot proposed)

"Specs":

Quote:

Originally posted by JayKay

Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Moves: 4 (was 3)
Cost: 40
Transport Capacity: 4 (was 3)
Obs: No Danger of sinking (was Danger of sinking in ocean squares)

Is it OK?

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot

Whatever.

Civ 3 is dead. Long live Civ 3.

Did you gave up on Civ 3, Zealot?

OT: I've been enjoying a "Diablo" experience these last days, but I'm thinking of giving a go on your ToT Succession Game, Zealot. See you, there.

Ecowiz Returns · January 25, 2002, 10:06

Take a look!

Zealot · January 25, 2002, 10:27

I prefer the first and fourth pictures.

Ecowiz Returns · January 25, 2002, 11:42

I believe the 4th is the best known.

But in that picture he seems kinda sick (great for defeat though; which is quite useless because the Portuguese will never lose

)

The 1st is my prefered.

Ecowiz Returns · January 30, 2002, 10:58

What happened to Jay Kay?

Come to think about it, what happened to Portuguese players?

I only know three of you: Zealot, Jay Kay and Silvagem, but still the most frequent is Zealot.

I would like to show the other guys the Portuguese civ is alive, but...

Keeping the hope, though.

How about presenting D.João II number 4 in the faces thread?

Zealot · January 30, 2002, 11:24

Sure, go ahead and post them there!

Jaykay is on exam "season" (or student season, kind of like duck season, but the teachers are the hunters and the students are caught, not with led, but with flunks).

But I'll send him a mail telling that you were worried about him!

Heck, this is such a "special moment" that I might even call him just to say that!