Another cheap exploit (trade) - Page 2

Robert Plomp · November 14, 2001, 07:00

Quote:

I still think we are beta testers.

Do you think this game contains more bugs than any other game at it's release ?

I think there are 2 major bugs:
1. Interception
2. Coastal Fortress

It's a shame they didn't found these.
The 1 million dollar bug and this one aren't that bad.
Most gamers use trainers anyway (my brother hardly plays a game himsefl)

wel, civ3 comes with some intern trainers

Don't use, no problem.

But indeed, shame shame shame on those 2 major bugs !

CS

yin26 · November 14, 2001, 07:02

"Two major bugs."

Dev · November 14, 2001, 07:30

Quote:

I think there are 2 major bugs:
1. Interception
2. Coastal Fortress

Don't play, no problem.

Quote:

wel, civ3 comes with some intern trainers
Don't use, no problem.

Nice logic eh?

Tell me, how do you prevent the AI from using these "trainers" ?

/dev

Robert Plomp · November 14, 2001, 07:42

as far as I can see, it doesn't.

Yin, you found more then 2 major bugs ?
which ones ?

nato · November 14, 2001, 07:57

I really wondered about this even before this thread.

Does all AI gold just appear out of thin air as needed?

Robert Plomp · November 14, 2001, 08:55

Quote:

Does all AI gold just appear out of thin air as needed?

No, only if you ask 1000000 gold

Max Webster · November 14, 2001, 09:38

Everytime I ask for ridiculous amounts of gold, I get a "not enough gold" message.

chazmyrr · November 14, 2001, 10:02

There are definately some anomalies in the way that the AI uses gold on Deity level. Of course there are a lot of unusual things that happen on Deity level. I really wish Civ3 had the build in cheat mode so I could step through turn by turn and see what the AI is doing. I start getting suspicious when the AI builds a second (third?) city next to my capitol in 3800-3700 BC. This has happened in a number of games. It almost seems as if the AI can rush build with gold while still in despotism and/or can build settlers even if the population would normally cause the city to be abandoned.

nato · November 14, 2001, 11:05

Quote:

No, only if you ask 1000000 gold

Well that is what I'm getting at ... is that just a strange loophole, or is it indicative that ALL AI gold is "artificial".

Seems hard to tell.

BTW I understand the AI must cheat in some ways. It is just very nice to know just what ways it is cheating to help understand the game.

dr.charm · November 14, 2001, 11:16

To the moron who said 'Don't play' in response to the other poster pointing out that interception and coastal forces don't work (2 major bugs), I say, please, 'Don't post'.

Sheesh. Do you think maybe the person *wants* to play the game and even use the parts of the game that are claimed to be in it?

Get a grip.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

Ozymandous · November 14, 2001, 11:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger

Malkuth, the ONE MILLION DOLLARS bug (that has to be it's official name, please give me proper credit on it) is a problem not because it's an exploitable cheat, but because the rules system is broken enough to allow it.

If it will give me ONE MILLION DOLLARS on a turn, who's to say that the 10 it's giving me for trade for my silk is legit? We know that there apparently isn't a check that works on the AI to verify it has the right amount of money for that deal, so who's to say that it isn't screwing it up and making up money when it rush buys items? Is it just printing money? It betrays the fact that the system is broken, badly in a place. So it's not enough to say "just don't ask for ONE MILLION DOLLARS", because if it fails to make sure it's valid for a million, who's to say any of the other trades are any more valid? It's no longer trustworthy.

Venger

Sorry flawed logic. Just because an apple is red and a crayon is red, a crayon is something to write with and a pencil is something you write with, does NOT mean that an apple is something you write with.

In other words, because A = B and B = C does not mean A = C.

You're pointing to one bug in the game where a variable overflowed and acting as if the whole game is broken. This is a logical fallacy.

Example: In Moo2, if you had over 32,000 science per turn you reverted to that much in NEGATIVE science. Did this mean that the whole game was broken? Nope, it just means they had the wrong variable type in there.

This does not mean the entire game is broken. Now then, if you really want to see a broken game go get Diablo2 & it's expansion pack and then apply their patch, you'll have a game that's still broken at it's essence, which does not appear to be the case with Civ3.

Dev · November 14, 2001, 11:35

Quote:

Originally posted by chazmyrr
There are definately some anomalies in the way that the AI uses gold on Deity level. Of course there are a lot of unusual things that happen on Deity level. I really wish Civ3 had the build in cheat mode so I could step through turn by turn and see what the AI is doing. I start getting suspicious when the AI builds a second (third?) city next to my capitol in 3800-3700 BC. This has happened in a number of games. It almost seems as if the AI can rush build with gold while still in despotism and/or can build settlers even if the population would normally cause the city to be abandoned.

Chaz I played around on deity yesterday and got to start within view of another civ, In turn one I spotted :
1 scout, 2 archers, 1 warrior, 1 settler and 2 workers leave his newly founded city. Add another 2+ units which left in a direction where I couldn't see them and it's very likely the AI got 3 settlers off the bat.

/dev

Dev · November 14, 2001, 11:40

Quote:

Originally posted by dr.charm
To the moron who said 'Don't play' in response to the other poster pointing out that interception and coastal forces don't work (2 major bugs), I say, please, 'Don't post'.

Sheesh. Do you think maybe the person *wants* to play the game and even use the parts of the game that are claimed to be in it?

Get a grip.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

Boy you radiate intelligence, how about you get some reading comprehension and buy an ironic clue before you start calling people morons ?

Have a nice day.

/dev

Ozymandous · November 14, 2001, 11:41

Quote:

Originally posted by chazmyrr
There are definately some anomalies in the way that the AI uses gold on Deity level. Of course there are a lot of unusual things that happen on Deity level. I really wish Civ3 had the build in cheat mode so I could step through turn by turn and see what the AI is doing. I start getting suspicious when the AI builds a second (third?) city next to my capitol in 3800-3700 BC. This has happened in a number of games. It almost seems as if the AI can rush build with gold while still in despotism and/or can build settlers even if the population would normally cause the city to be abandoned.

I believe on Diety level the AI only needs 50%-60% of it's normal proution to finih units. If the same bonus applies to food, then it is entirely possible for the AI, on Diety level, to have potentially 2 settlers out and having built a city by the time your first rolls out.

This is not a secret but documented somewhere around here. The only difficulty where the AI and human player are equal is Reagent. All other levels either the AI or Human player takes a hit.

Th0mas · November 14, 2001, 13:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Dev

Boy you radiate intelligence, how about you get some reading comprehension and buy an ironic clue before you start calling people morons ?

Have a nice day.

/dev

I am sorry Dev, but how is that Ironic? unhelpful maybe...Not ironic.

It is however ironic that you ask him to " get some reading comprehension" though

dr.charm · November 14, 2001, 13:58

Many people think that making a nasty comment about someone's valid complaints is 'ironic'.

Dr. Charm

Venger · November 14, 2001, 14:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozymandous

Sorry flawed logic. Just because an apple is red and a crayon is red, a crayon is something to write with and a pencil is something you write with, does NOT mean that an apple is something you write with.

You are comparing inductive reasoning with the integrity of a mathematical system?

Quote:

In other words, because A = B and B = C does not mean A = C.

Actually, in math, it kinda does. It kinda has to or the thing doesn't work. To use your pedantic example, if an Apple's color (A)is the same as a crayon's color (B), and a crayon's color (B) is red (C), then, yes captain IntroToLogic, an Apple's color (A) is red (C).

Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts...

Quote:

You're pointing to one bug in the game where a variable overflowed and acting as if the whole game is broken.

THE WHOLE GAME IS BROKEN. Freaking please dude, in addition to bad examples of intro to logic 101 you also have a gift for hyperbole. Where else does the variable overflow? Is it only at that one place? If you weighed 140 pounds but had a scale that said 160 when you got on it, would you think it accurate at every other weight? This is the problem - we know it has a serious bug - and others - as such it's integrity is compromised. Until they can explain the bugs or get them fixed, you should view that system as unreliable.

Quote:

This is a logical fallacy.

Woohoo! On to page two of the logic handbook now...

Quote:

Example: In Moo2, if you had over 32,000 science per turn you reverted to that much in NEGATIVE science. Did this mean that the whole game was broken? Nope, it just means they had the wrong variable type in there.

How do you know what the bug is? The game also turns down 100 gold offered for 10. Is that a variable bug too?

Quote:

This does not mean the entire game is broken. Now then, if you really want to see a broken game go get Diablo2 & it's expansion pack and then apply their patch, you'll have a game that's still broken at it's essence, which does not appear to be the case with Civ3.

This part is clearly broken. God you flat earthers just love the Emperor's new clothes...

Venger

nato · November 14, 2001, 14:34

Quote:

Chaz I played around on deity yesterday and got to start within view of another civ, In turn one I spotted :
1 scout, 2 archers, 1 warrior, 1 settler and 2 workers leave his newly founded city. Add another 2+ units which left in a direction where I couldn't see them and it's very likely the AI got 3 settlers off the bat.

I would just like clarification ... you were in view of his capitol at the very start of the game, and all those units came out on the very first turn? Like no exageration?

If so that is quite a help for the deity AI, well beyond production and gold bonuses, but several actual units.

Man with 2 archers and 1 warrior by your totally undefended and only city ... hope he was India!

zapperio · November 14, 2001, 14:35

The only thing that seems to be broken around here is your sense of perspective mr. venger.

Zap

dr.charm · November 14, 2001, 14:50

Venger seems to be one of the few people here *with* perspective. There are two camps apparently: The 'My favourite little thing isn't in the game, it's irreperably broken, BOYCOTT, BOYCOTT' crowd; and the 'It doesn't matter if air superiority doesn't work, if you think that it should, you obviously think that the game totally sucks and just want to try and damage its reputation' crowd.

It would be a great if *more* people were like Venger in fact. The game is good, *very* good in fact, but there *are* Firaxis-acknowledged problems with it, one of them being air superiority.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

Death's Toe · November 14, 2001, 15:22

/ot

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozymandous

In other words, because A = B and B = C does not mean A = C.

Holy sweet jesus, I can't believe you actually posted this!?!? Are you serious?

If A = B, and B = C, then A MUST = C. There is NO way around this, at ALL. This is pure logic, plain and simple.

/ot

zapperio · November 14, 2001, 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by dr.charm
Venger seems to be one of the few people here *with* perspective. There are two camps apparently: The 'My favourite little thing isn't in the game, it's irreperably broken, BOYCOTT, BOYCOTT' crowd; and the 'It doesn't matter if air superiority doesn't work, if you think that it should, you obviously think that the game totally sucks and just want to try and damage its reputation' crowd.

Ok, there are two people here with broken perspective. You seem to have a competitor in the hyperbole dept., venger.

Zap

inca911 · November 14, 2001, 15:42

Hiya! I, for one, appreciate your posting of this exploit in the game and I think it does need to be closed by Firaxis in the patch. I also believe that no single person in this forum is qualified to make judgements that the entire game is broken nor is there any one person in this forum who's opinion is more valid than everyone else's (despite several posts by many others that seem to indicate their viewpoints are superior). Disagreeing with a point is certainly within everyone's individual rights and is to be expected for many issues. However, it would better serve the overall quality of the forum if such disagreements could be carried out more diplomatically. Perhaps we just have too many Civ3 warmongers, but a rational discourse should not be this difficult. So, thanks for the loophole and those of us who don't want to use it will not do so and hopefully Firaxis will tie up that loose end in the patch.

GodSpawn · November 14, 2001, 15:46

Is it not the case, then, that the "bug" only occurs if you have changed a setting in the editor? At least, that's how I read it.

Quote:

Originally posted by RTodd
Man I need some sleep....found that I changed that particular requirement in the editor.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

zapperio · November 14, 2001, 15:54

I haven't tested it myself but Sunshine reported a different bug at the beginning of the thread and I understand it is unrelated to setting the requirements for strat resources in the editor. So it is still outstanding issue.

Zap

dr.charm · November 14, 2001, 15:55

No, perspective is taking the middle line, which is what I've been doing, and (at least in this thread) what Venger has been doing. Others seem to think that a minor exploit (that you don't have to use) ruins the game, and others that air superiority is but a minor advantage to give to the AI.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

P.S. Where in Halifax? I'm from Antigonish, though living in NYC.

zapperio · November 14, 2001, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by dr.charm
P.S. Where in Halifax? I'm from Antigonish, though living in NYC.

I just couldn't posit myself with either option you presented and I've been wrangling with Vanger over the issue in other threads and in my experience he wouldn't know a middle line if you ran it through him, so...

I'm from Bedford. Well actually I'm Icelandic but I live in Bedford.

Saay, I know someone in NYC you wouldn't happen to know...

Zap

dr.charm · November 14, 2001, 16:03

Heck, I could probably name a random person in NS, and you'd have a better chance of knowing *them*

I don't agree with everything that Venger says, but on this thread, I think he's being quite reasonable, particularily compared to the A=B=C thing which is just weird

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

fanatic civver · November 14, 2001, 18:11

>How do you know what the bug is?

Firaxis already stated that it is a variable overflow bug...

>THE WHOLE GAME IS BROKEN.

Buggy? Yes. Broken? Only time will tell. Will civ 3 stand the test of time?

sunshine · November 14, 2001, 18:45

Well, to me the obvious fix to the exploit I started this thread with is to make the trade pacts last for 20 years. Just like the manual and the civilopedia says they do. If you are unable to produce said item, the ai doesn't receive it- but if, in the course of that twenty years, you become able to produce said item again, the ai gets the surplus. And if you traded for gold/turn, you shouldn't receive that unless the ai gets their resource.

In other words, make trade work like trade.

A possible addendum would be to make the counter stop incrementing when the trade good is unavailable.

MarkG, if you haven't had a situation in which the ai is ahead of you in tech, maybe you should play on a higher difficulty level? If you've managed to beat the ai in tech research on deity without using an exploit I really want to hear from you.