3-Step approaching for beating Deity

[Harovan]

XCalibyr: This has been discussed in other threads, just read there. I suggest you Vel's Strategy Thread (Part 1-3, parts start with a summary), the "Money Making Strategy" by regoarrarr and you should generally try to read the threads with a rate of at least 3.00.

[vmxa1]

I have been reading a few post on playing at Deity and wining OCC or using vassals and such, but man I got to wonder how they do it. I just tried the early attack stuff and it is hard to see how you will beat them with warriors and archers. They show up with 13 warriors at 2900BC. They have started in a Tundra area and have still made 3 cities. I have expansion trait and hit three huts and got one tech and one local map and one empty. Plus one empty in my founding city, so much for that trait getting better stuff from the huts. With 8 off and 4 def units to start and some type 1 and type 2 as well, if they are near you, they can jump you with ease, if they want. My warrior did well as it went vet and elite, but how much can it do. The archer went down with out single hit. I guess, I could try staying out of touble for awhile, but even with the gems very close and a cow in the city, it will be hard as the English were not far off and will find me very soon.

[Aeson]

Usually taking a city with your first archer or warrior on Deity just results in losing it right back to the AI, sometimes with your own cities as well. On Deity its best to wait to attack with overwhelming force. The AI will expand itself to a poor defensive position rather quickly. They get free units at the start, but those will be used up as city garrison units as they produce more and more settlers. On Deity I am pretty sure the AI can build settlers when they hit a population of 2 (like the player can on Cheiftain), which means their expansion can outpace their unit production. I like to wait for Horsemen for the first attack, usually keeping 5 to 10 horsemen in a stack. Swordsmen/Catapult armies also work pretty well, or just Immortals if you are the Persians. By waiting, most of the AI's spearmen will be tied up in defending their cities, a few of their cities will be tied up in building wonders, and all you have to deal with is a some wandering warriors and city garrisons.

[SanPellegrino]

Originally posted by Aeson
On Deity I am pretty sure the AI can build settlers when they hit a population of 2 (like the player can on Cheiftain), which means their expansion can outpace their unit production.

They can't, but on deity the AI starts with one additional "starting unit 1" = Settler, 2 additional workers and 12 military units.

[vetcrusader]

I am having trouble getting this strategy to work. I just got Civ III very recently, and tried my first game with deity/raging/huge map/16 civs. I discovered that my strategies that win Civ II deity blindfolded didn't work on Civ III, so I browsed the boards to get an idea of what kind of strategies might work in Civ III.

I found this strategy, so decided to try it out on the newest game I had stated, which was monarch/raging/huge map/16 civs. What a wimp I am, going back to Monarch. But I'll probably go back to deity next game, once I get the basics of Civ III down. Anyway, the problem I found was in getting my new vassals to "sue for peace." My first vassal was France, which I had to reduce to one city, out of the initial four. But France did not renew peace negotiations after 20 turns, or any number of turns.

My next vassal was Russia. After capturing a few Russian cities and destorying most of them (since most had no culture), I finally reduced Russia to seven cities after capturing Moscow (huge map). Russia gave everything for peace, and even one of their cities. But Russia did not renew a peace negotiation after 20 turns. I have tried the thing of asking them to give me things "or else", but the civs did not respond to the threat. Is there some secret to getting the vassals to "sue for peace." Is there something about the fact that I am playing Monarch that is making this not work. Maybe I should try this on deity/tiny map and see if I can get them to sue to extend the peace.

The book says, and when you negotiate for the peace treaty initially, that the peace treaty lasts "until war is declared" whereas most deals last twenty turns. But your strategy seems to suggest that the vassals will ask to extend the peace treaty after twenty turns even though technically the peace treaty is still in effect? But this doesn't seem to be happening. I do recall in Civ II a few times that civs you had a peace treaty with would ask for peace again. But that hasn't happening to me yet in Civ III.

So, to sum up, my question is, how do you get your vassals to ask to renew the peace treaty?

[Platypus]

This is a clunky piece of UI that seems to give everybody trouble. To renegociate peace (or any other deal), you need to contact the civilization, go into the would-you-like-to-make-deal screen, and then click on "Active" at the bottom of the screen. This will show you a list of all active deals, including peace. You can click on one of the deals to deactivate it, and then go back to the "New" section to negociate a new deal for it.

[Mallard]

Out of all the ideas I've seen on beating Deity mode, which I have yet to come close to, this seems the most plausible. But I still can't even manage conquering more than one city for a few reasons. One is that whenever I rush production I seem to get a "you killed my family to make an archer" unhappiness wave, which means even with one luxury I had to have my one labourer be an entertainer which halts most of my progress. Another thing is how the AI starts with so many military units. I bring my 2 warriors and 2 archers into their land and they have about 10 warriors roaming around with 2 spearmen in every city. If I wait it seems to get worse because their growth is exponential. Is there any more specific detail I can get on how this is be done?

[Aeson]

On Deity you have to wait a bit for the AI to out expand their initial free units. Also attacking with 10+ units in a stack is a good idea. Every pop-rush city should have a city garrison unit, which will let you grow to size 2. It takes 2 luxuries otherwise I think. The first attack should be with Swordsmen or Horsemen, preferably Horsemen. Usually you can buy the corresponding tech by the time you need it. Until then just pump out settlers and warriors, founding as many cities as possible in high food areas. If you are going to go the Swordsman route, the warriors you have built can be upgraded quickly. Always keep as many units as possible in the main stack, the AI will often pass on attacking the stack with their units, giving you free shots as they go by.

[Da_cOmRaDe_MiKe]

thats all nice and dandy untill you get to modern age and your opponents are trailing behind... you send in armies of panzers or paratroopers and your up against musketmen or riflemen... i prefer to let me allies build the same but go over dose on defence so they cant threaten me or attack me.. it works as well and also gives you a lot of time to manage corruption and social problems...

[DrSpike]

I think the point is you need more territory than your likely to start with if you're going to keep up with the AI on deity. I agree with Aeson in that consolidate then rush is a good tactic. I have even done this successfully when I was really boxed in by packing in a lot of temp cities then striking out after horseback riding.

Randomturns original strat was very clever for 1.07. From 1.16 onwards ever less so I think, since you can't keep size 1 cities with no culture to rush ever more units.

Consolidate then rush cuts the mustard in 1.17.

[ledj]

with 1.17, you almost have to build the great library because you cannot trade the conquered cities for the techs. I had some luck with the Persian civ. I researched iron work first. Saved all the gold. In the meanwhile, produced about 10 veteran worriors. As soon I upgraded the worriors to immortels, I started to conquest. The first goal was to produce a leader for rushing the great library before it 's too late.

[Selkirk]

I won my first 1.17f deity game last night. I played several games which I lost. I came very close to winning a space race in my last game. I also played a pacifist game where I played the entire game without ever being at war, trying for a diplomatic victory only to have the computer build the UN 5 turns before me. In this most recent game, things went so well, though that there was never any question of winning. Here is what I did.

I played the egyptians. I started out building warriors and one settler, alternating warriors between garrisons and exploring, balancing things to get the most exploration while never having an entertainer, nor wasting time with a fully produced settler waiting for the city to grow.

I started researching The Wheel and turned science down to maximize my income while still getting it in 40 turns.

I put my second city in a very close interlocking position which offered alot of grasslands and plains with the hopes of getting horses, passing up a real nice area with 3 furs. Sure enough, after I got the wheel, the new city had horses. I set the science to go for Monarchy leaving the science low and forgot about it.

Because my cities were close, my single industrious worker was able to keep them both fully improved for their population level. I used captured workers for the rest of the game.

With 2 warriors in each city, I had both cities produce temples, then barracks, then war chariots. When I had about 8 chariots I attacked my nearest neighbor, the english. This triggers the egyptian golden age. War chariots are more than a match for a few spearmen defenders at that point in time. Plus they are really cheap and you can really churn them out in a golden age.

I took 3 english cities including their capitol and the colossus. I razed 2 other misplaced ones. In each captured city, I left the injured chariots to heal and prevent flipping, while moving on with the force of 8 or 9 fully healed chariots. If I didn't have enough, I just waited for some to be built or heal.

In the first city I captured, I built a temple, then started building warriors. I used these as cheap place holders to free up the chariots that I had left behind to other duties. In the other captured cities I built a barracks after the temple and more war chariots.

At this point, I sued for peace with the english and got their world map, all their contacts, and all their tech.

Then, I turned on my other neighbor, the greeks. They were much harder because of the hoplites, but I already had alot of chariots and was not afraid to loose a few. (My golden age ended while at war with the greeks and upkeep was overwhelming). I took 4 of their cities including their capitol and the great library and razed 4 others. This brought all of my tech up to date and I never fell behind after this.

Once I was at peace I disbanded excess chariots to build temples leaving 3 units in each city. I also hurried a temple in one city to bring some gems into my territory. I then built a new settler and dropped in closer to the gems and disbanded the city with the temple.

I changed all of the cities to build libraries then cathedrals. Almost every city had a temple, a library, and a cathedral by 10AD. In a couple of key cities I hurried all of the cultural improvements through the university. I also built the forbidden palace around this time.

After I was done hurrying culture improvements, I set my science on maximum and headed for democracy. When ever I got a new government, I switched immediately. I was able to out science the computer for the entire game. After democracy, I stayed on the main path and sold tech back to the computer immediately. I traded luxuries for the optional techs. By electricity I was able to put my science at 100%. By motorized transport I had accumulated 6000 gold and stopped selling tech. I left my science on 100% for the rest of the game, drawing on this reserve.

I was able to get every wonder after sistine and leonardo, which were under construction while I was taking over the greeks.

Since I had a good tech lead when tanks came around and I was worried that the babylonians would out-culture me, I secured a right of passage with our intervening neighbor, the aztecs and proceeded to introduce them to a war mobilized democracy. They folded up quicker than I thought and I had all those tanks over there, so I also took out the americans while I was there. The americans developed tanks, during this time, but it didn't help them. I didn't share a border with the Americans, but they made an alliance with my neighbor the iroquois, so I destroyed them after the Americans.

After the iroquois, I still had lots of tanks and I was still going at 100% science and had nothing else to build in my cities, so I set into the atzecs. I only got about halfway through them, though, when my democracies war weariness got bad, so I declared peace and started building a Apollo. In hind sight, I should have switched to republic and continued on for a little bit. I had at least a hundred workers by this point.

I won with a space victory.

Sorry to be so long winded.

[tommyd]

Selkirk,

Could you be more specific about the strategies you used?
Did you rely on pop-rushing? How big did you get those cities to be able to outproduce the AI? How were you able to get the money rolling in so well?
If you did rely on pop-rushing, how many cities did you do it with?
Also, how did you manage to build barracks, temples, and 8 chariots with the AI still only using spearmen?

Okay, so I have some questions...

Tom

[Aeson]

What sized map did you play on Selkirk?

[Harovan]

Interesting history Selkirk. Reminds me of my latest try with the Egypts on Deity. Other than you, I lost it, because I made a big tactical mistake. I wanted a quick game and played on a small map with 5 other "ancient" civs. I managed to build 5 cities, had horses, but no iron. Built a dozen War Chariots, and attacked a greek city with an iron resource. Despite their hoplites, I luckily took the city even without losing one Chariot. So far so good. Now the misery begins.

The taken city was on a chokepoint. This strategic advantage was, why I attacked it and not a Babylonian city with an iron resource at the other side of my country. The entire rest of Greece was behind of that chokepoint. And suddenly I saw what I had overlooked... jungle behind the choke point. And Chariots can't pass jungle... . I had no decent garrison yet in the taken city (only my Chariots), no road connecting it and the Greeks sent a bunch of Archers. I could not rush a garrison, because the city was size 1. When my 2 spearmen arrived five turns later, I had already lost 8 of my Chariots to their f'n Archers. I could not even counterattack. And now it happened, the Greeks signed an alliance with the Babs, which was, of course, my end, as a puny six city country between two AI's who had twice as much each. Yea, I had my GA, but the Greeks and the Babs had theirs too...

Guess I have learned a lot about the overwhelming significance of small topographic details .

[Selkirk]

Did you rely on pop-rushing?

No.

How big did you get those cities to be able to outproduce the AI?

Both starting cities were on rivers, but I think they were less than size six when I had my golden age. I am sure the second one was small because to get it on a river I had to snuggle it up next to a greek city and the greeks dropped another city on the other side of it, so it had a really distorted culture shape. I put it there because there was a cow next to the river and the area had a lot of grasslands. Fortunately, the horses were in my cultural sliver.

All the cities were maxed at 12 by the time I hit the sanitation except the one that I put down to grab the gems. The cities I captured were size 3 to 6 when I got them. Since it was early, I didn't starve out the citizens.

How were you able to get the money rolling in so well?

It helped that I had alot of rivers. My first two cities were on rivers. All of the cities that I captured were on rivers except 3. I specifically targeted cities on rivers for conquest. The only non-river cities I took had luxuries or wonders. I left 4 enemy cities that weren't very good completely surrounded by my territory. This is why I was hurrying culture improvements before 10AD to get the longevity effects. I flipped one of the four and disbanded it.

I also directed my conquest to gather up as many luxuries as possible for trading fodder. My capitol had a clump of furs by it, the english had a clump of dyes, and the greeks had a clump of gems. I had to be very aggressive to get the gems. For most of the game there were civs who could have used one of my 3 types of extra resources. I was never able to trade away all my extra luxuries. I would only trade for good amounts of gold per turn or a tech. If they couldn't pay, I just waited until they could. I was very aggressive on the trading screen and I re-negotiated everything as soon as the 20 turns expired.

Once I was ahead in tech, I was able to do a lot of tech-whoring. I was able to sell the advances leading up to motorized transport for 20-60 gold per turn to 3 or 4 civs. Also, if they wouldn't pay per turn for a tech, I wouldn't sell it. Sometimes the computer would sell it to them, but sometimes I could get more money out of them on a later turn.

Also, how did you manage to build barracks, temples, and 8 chariots with the AI still only using spearmen?

I don't remember how many chariots I had exactly. It was certainly more than 6. It wasn't a lot.

I only had two cities so I didn't waste time building settlers or workers. Also, one city had a cow. I think I was ready for the rush prior to 1000 BC. I don't think I would have succeeded rushing the greek hoplites with only 8 chariots. I did them at the end of my golden age when I had a lot more. Also, I only mine, never irrigate grass squares so they produce the extra shield in the golden age.

It was a standard default size map, 8 civs.

[Selkirk]

One more word about rushing with war chariots. Their advantages are that they are cheap and that they trigger a golden age. Rushing with chariots is more about economic power than about military power. Because the golden age is limited, I will use the chariots to beeline for the computers most developed cities and capture and raze them. My goal is to destroy the computer's capability to produce units. I very often leave less well developed cities behind in my growing territory.

Since there are always new chariots heading to the front lines, if these cities do produce a unit there is usually a stray chariot to mop it up or slow it down. For the same reason, I never build spearmen and build warriors only to defend against barbarians and keep citizens happy.

In the game I described above when I attacked the greeks, I first attacked one of their cities on my border and razed it. Then I attacked the next city in the direction of their capitol, leaving cities closer to my empire alone. Then I took their capitol. Once I had their capitol and a clear line between my empire and their capitol, I used it as a base to clean up their surrounding core cities. Usually after you take out the core like this, the other computer players all declare war on the empire and take over the crappier outlying cities. If any of them have resource or luxuries you want to make sure you get there first.

Through the course of my golden age, I always expect to have an increasing number of chariots especially as newly captured cities come online. If you don't take care of their production centers immediately, the computer will wear down your chariots and you will have an ever decreasing number of them. Momentum is key.

[Selkirk]

More on the war chariot rush ... Make sure you don't get Iron working too soon because you may be forced to build spearmen at twice the price of warriors. Also make sure you don't get horseback riding because horsemen are 50% more expensive than war chariots. Either of these techs can ruin your momentum. I'm going to try a new game as the egyptians tonight. If I can win again using this strategy, I'm going to switch to the babs and try to win with a pacifist strategy.

[DrSpike]

Not getting the tech isn't really the point. It is always better to have the tech; you can always remove the road that connects it to your empire if necessary.

[Selkirk]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Not getting the tech isn't really the point. It is always better to have the tech; you can always remove the road that connects it to your empire if necessary.

This is true for iron working and swordsmen, not for horseback riding and war chariots. Once you get horseback riding, all of your cities will automatically produce horsemen instead or war chariots and as far as I know there is no way to go back.

When your strategy is to use the extra production of your golden age to overwhelm a computer player with cheap units, any increase in unit costs is damaging.

Since with this strategy you are going to be extort all of the tech of your defeated foe, why trade or research for these things just before you are going to get them for free? (Iron working is an exception, because it leads to construction -- but you can get it just before you intend to sue for peace.) The thing to watch for is capturing (or building) the great library too soon and destroying your production momentum with more expensive units.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Selkirk


This is true for iron working and swordsmen, not for horseback riding and war chariots.

True. You probably should be able to choose which units become obselete.

Interestingly in the 1.17 strat thread I opined at the start that the egyptians would be a good choice of civ in 1.17, due to them having a cheap well-timed UU. Cheapness matters more when rushing is harder. I haven't had much chance to test it out myself, as I've just got dsl and I got a little sidetracked

Nice to see it's working out.

[soupboy]

I Just finished playing a game using this stratagy, and noticed something I consider fairly important... your vassal states will never vote for you in a UN election, thus when you hear that somebody is building the UN (or if you are about to finish the UN) you need to buy/beg/barter/steal military aliances against your vassals in such a manor as to ensure a no-majority vote (the larger civs almost always vote for themselves) ...

much to my dismay this didn't occure to me until after I had suffered a defeat, and had to reload from a saved game to win.. 8-( (which I don't consider a real win... )

[IthacaMike]

Originally posted by Selkirk

This is true for iron working and swordsmen, not for horseback riding and war chariots. Once you get horseback riding, all of your cities will automatically produce horsemen instead or war chariots and as far as I know there is no way to go back.

Are you sure about that? I don't play the Egyptians but looking at the Editor it looks like War Chariots are not obsolete until you can build Knights. This is after 1.21f.

Mike G

[DrSpike]

We were bandying around these ideas for 1.16f, which is 2 patches ago. Anything that seems out of place in the discussion is due to that fact.

[resmc751]

That is a great strategy, but I have a INCREDIBLY more effective one, but it is soooo effective, & basically allows you to blow away your enemies at any level, & achieve any type of victory way earlier than it usually would with the most seasoned civ3 player.
I'm trying to figure out how to post this strategy on this site.
If there is a way for any user to post an article under 'Strategy", please say something. I'm very new to the site.

P.S.what is w/the "Settler" under my username?

[Theseus]

resmc751,

Either post the strat right here, or start a new thread.

The Settler thing relates to how many times you've posted.

[Napolean]

Hey, everybody is talking about waste and coruption when it comes to faraway cities. Why no one has ever mentioned the drastic drop in shield procustivity? Any way to counter it the way randomturn counters corruption?

[Dominae]

Waste is Shield Corruption. You deal with it the same way as you deal with Commerce Corruption (build improvements, switch governments, etc.).


Dominae

[Napolean]

not that i didn't realise but what improvements are that which is able to crack waste? And by switching govt, how does that help in eliminating waste?

[Harovan]

Corruption and waste are reduced by Courthouses and Police Stations. Additionally, a well-placed Forbidden Palace (small wonder) can very much reduce corruption and waste, because it basically gives you a second core area. There are plenty of threads around this issue, just browse this forum and may be the directory.

Governments also affect corruption/waste. Despotism has the most, then Monarchy, Republic and Democracy (least corruption). Communism (the "make all even" government) has a special form of corruption, as the corruption due to distance is leveled over the while empire, making your core less efficient and border cities more efficient.