Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: German Unique Unit - Page 2

Ecthy · November 15, 2001, 15:34

polytubbie = Apolyton poster

Martinus · November 15, 2001, 15:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
some Polish polytubbies do

Well, to be honest, I find the atmosphere here at Apolyton to be slightly more "intense" (I am not speaking about my compatriotrs at the moment only, but in general) than at the Europa Universalis Paradox forum I also participate in. I think that is might be a matter of age

Ecthy · November 15, 2001, 15:40

he said Germans like to live by Goebbel's mottos

Jayis Solis · November 15, 2001, 15:47

What about a powerful artillery piece, in tribute to the "Big Bertha" gun in WWI?

I don't think there is any UU that is artillery?

Martinus · November 15, 2001, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
he said Germans like to live by Goebbel's mottos

Which is silly, obviously. Anyway, I have an impression that many discussions I had at Apolyton quickly deteriorated into insult fests (and I was not ALWAYS a guilty party

)

Nice sig. Btw, the proper phrase should be "pinko-commie-fairy-faggot"

But let's come back to the topic, or Mark is going to ban us.
As I said many times before, Germans should have Teutonic Knight as their CSU - IMHO the Holy Roman Empire was the Golden Age of the German civilisation, as it basically dominated (either directly, or indirectly, through political and religious influence) much part of Europe, including Italy and many Central-Eastern European countries (IIRC, even the English King paid hommage once to Frederick Barbarossa).

If we were going far enough, we could than make Germans Scientific and Religious (reflection of their influence in spread of Christianity) and give them Bach Cathedral to trigger the GA (by making it a Scientific and Religious wonder as well). I know this would be a bit of a stretch - but Chinese were made Militaristic for the same purpose - to have the Great Wall as the GA trigger.

GePap · November 15, 2001, 17:14

Several people have said that the Prussian army of the 19th century was not better than anyone elses, so therefore the Prussian grenadier should not be the UU. Well, for starters, the Jaguar warrior of the Aztecs men weren't faster then other men, so why does their warrior have 2 movement? This is to conceptualize and make abstract the qualities that made the Aztec military great and its mobility and dedication (plus the warrior ethos that was given to children from birth) was why we can think of their warriors as having move 2. Ask yourseves why the Panzer has that extra move? The rgeatest blitzkrieg successes were in France and early in Barbarrosa and both those times the Germans had less tanks, and in many ways, inferior tanks (Pz II's and PZ 38's of the French campaign were technically inferior to the Char B1 and Somua 35's of the french, and we can't even compare the Pz 38 or Pz III to the T-34 or KV series) but they won because of better training, superior command(from the general staff, a Prussian invention) and better communications, thus the added movement point. The argument for Grenadiers is not that the Panzer should not be, but that the German golden age should be in the Early industrial area at least (the Romantics) and that was also a golden age of German nationalism (warped by Nazi times) so the German UU should be an early industrial age not a late industrial age. The same reasons that would give the Panzer an extra move (better C&C and training) would also give the German UU +1 movement. I say a riflemen with +1 (and spiked helmet

) which would give the Germaan great tactical ability in that age since they could better coordinate with offensive units in the field and secure land faster.

Ecthy · November 15, 2001, 17:19

thing is, Germany didn't exist in the early industrial age

Aurel · November 15, 2001, 19:03

what about a little fat brewer (stealth unit) who tricky weakens his enemies with evil yellow alcohol so they can only move forward in zigzag four the next 3 rounds (while loosing all their attack capabilities...and well also their defense capabilities)

Mankind · November 15, 2001, 19:17

Keep the Panzer but rename it (FE to Tiger or another specific model)

why not?

d_dudy · November 15, 2001, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by El Awrence
d-dudy:

panzerkampfwagen?

yeah! i think it was a danish? poster who said that's what their tanks are called during the "should the panzer be the german UU?" thread

(not exact quote)

are you danish, El Awrence?

molly bloom · November 15, 2001, 22:01

The German UU should be a baker who scatters Honigkuchen and Lebkuchen thus distracting opponents who stop and eat and get killed.... or perhaps Linzertorte...mmmm.....

GePap · November 16, 2001, 01:33

Ecthelion

Yes, the German Reich did not exist until Versailles, jan 1871 but what we play in Civ is not 'Germany' but the German civilization, which did exist. Why else the Congress of Frankfurt in 1848 or the 'Holy Roman Empire of the Germans'? Beisdes, many civs in this game did not exist as unified countries or as groups at all until long after 4000 b.c. but we play them anyway, so this is a technicallity and moot point to boot.

Dr. Nick · November 16, 2001, 18:29

dudy, NO! I'm Argentine! I just play waaaaaaay too much Panzer General 2.

BTW, not the Tiger or Panther as I think that the T-34 outclassed it, better the PzIII or PzIV, which were revolutionary designs when they stepped off the production line.

Jason · November 17, 2001, 16:21

Naw, the T-34s that the Tigers and Panthers faced weren't as good as they were. The Josef Stalins and T34-85s were the first really competitive ones I think.

The T-34s were a better weapon in overall terms but on the battlefield I don't think there was a WWII tank that actually outclassed a late model Tiger in combat. Pershings and Stalins included I think. Assuming it was gassed, kept its treads on, and got built in the first place. Maybe an expensive toy when cheaper tanks would have done more good (more Panthers, PzIVs) but it was still the best.

Anyway, point is, "Panzer" is actually a nice, general UU that is very good. One of the more apt UUs that actually got into the game.

I'm carefully wiping the Germans out now at the same time I'm researching Tanks. I don't want naughty Mr. Bismarck to be building any 12-8-3 monstrosities on my doorstep

d_dudy · November 17, 2001, 20:20

Quote:

Originally posted by El Awrence
dudy, NO! I'm Argentine!

i know, i know, i was just kidding with you. wasn't it you gianny was arguing with about one of the south american nationalities?

His Divine Shadow · November 21, 2001, 18:21

I voted for the Prussian Rifleman/Grenadier. Like it or not, Prussia was the stepping stone for Germany's Golden Age, bar none. The Prussian rifleman's Dreyse needle gun was a breechloader in a world of musketloaders, which gave them superior battlefield ability, and Prussia invented the General Staff, which means their army was the most fundamentally-organized in the 19th Century. The Prussian military has been emulated by cultures as far and diverse as Japan. The lockstep legions of Prussia were the thing to have in Europe after Napoleon, and that has to count for something.

Ideally, General Staff would be a nice wonder, though the military academy thing pretty well sums it up already. Some modification to Sun Tzu's AoW, perhaps?

Jason · November 21, 2001, 19:03

Quote:

The Prussian rifleman's Dreyse needle gun was a breechloader in a world of musketloaders

Musketloader? You mean muzzle loader? Wasn't such a wonder, just better than the garbage the Austrians had. The Prussians actually were at a conspicuous small-arms disadvantage compared to the French, with the much better Chassepot. And yet they beat them handily.

The Franco-Prussian war featured better generals and better artillery handling, and better mobilization as well. That doesn't mean we should build up the formidable myths about Prussia any more than they already have been.

I wouldn't worry about the German golden age placement being off. If you build Sun Tzu's and ANY scientific wonder, you'll have your golden age at some strange time anyway. I had my French golden age before I even got Musketeers.

SaintOf7 · December 5, 2001, 04:41

by trhe way the special Unit can be the tank "Leopard2 A5!"
it's maybe the most modern tank in the world!
ot the tigers in ww2

Dr. Nick · December 5, 2001, 10:10

Quote:

Originally posted by d_dudy

i know, i know, i was just kidding with you. wasn't it you gianny was arguing with about one of the south american nationalities?

Probably.

Pezeteros · December 22, 2001, 01:10

Rename to Pather sounds best to me.

V2 is a good idea, but I wouldn't like to see default civs' attributes changed.

I'd go with rename to other model (Panther IMHO) or keep Panzer

If you could make it look like Panther would be cool

Sünert · January 7, 2002, 10:51

The golden age of germany is the time after 1950 IMO.
I would stay with the Panzer but would rename it Leopard II ( AFAIK it is akcnowledged as the best tank also our Bundeswehr is just laughable )

Harovan · January 9, 2002, 13:07

I know, nobody reads this thread anymore, but I post this comment anyway.

I often play with the Germans and almost never have my golden age in the "Panzer time". Usually I build at least one of the science wonders (Copernicus and/or Newton) and a militaristic (Universal Suffrage) and -voilà- have a GA in the early industrial age. That's much better than in the end of this age, where a GA produces more pollution than benefit.

So don't touch the Panzer's, and don't rename them.

Btw: The late German tanks (Tiger and esp. Panther) surely were a match for the T34, even for the T34/85. But they came too late and were not enough to change something. Later the Russians brought the JS tanks with their monstrous 120mm cannons, and the Americans outnumbered them with LOTs of Shermans, and the era of the Tigers (and "King Tigers", Tiger II) was over.

Wernazuma III · January 9, 2002, 13:48

Sir Ralph: We will not change anything of the existing Civs, except for their city lists and leaders, so don't worry

Ecthy · January 9, 2002, 14:00

Copernicus is not a scientific wonder, alas

Ecthy · January 9, 2002, 14:05

wieso quatschen wir hier eigentlich englisch?

Harovan · January 10, 2002, 05:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Copernicus is not a scientific wonder, alas

Ummm... thought it was! Anyway, I mostly build both, if it's possible even in the same city, so it doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
wieso quatschen wir hier eigentlich englisch?

Weiß nicht... für die paar Hanseln aus den anderen Ländern vielleicht?

Harovan · January 10, 2002, 06:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
Sir Ralph: We will not change anything of the existing Civs, except for their city lists and leaders, so don't worry

Thank god, may be we finally get rid of Richtoffen, Hengest and Horsa. Take Hermann the Cheruskian, (Barbarossa is already in), Frederick the Great, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Blücher, Moltke, ... (there are so much good, we even don't need to mention Guderian, Manstein or Rommel the Desert Fox, who were excellent generals, but fought in the wrong war).

Ecthy · January 10, 2002, 10:33

Ich war geradezu enttäuscht darüber, dass Copernicus ein Expansionist-wunder ist... Wo es doch ein "deutsches Wunder" ist (ich sag das auf deutsch weil sonst wieder die Forum-Polen angerannt kommen und jammern

), und unsereins in Civ3 Wissenschaftlich ist...

Ecthy · January 10, 2002, 10:35

Ansonsten liest das hier bestimmt kaum noch ein nicht-Zentraleuropäer

As for Richthofen, Hengest and Horsa - I never understood why there's no puking smiley at Apolyton.

I replaced them with Arminius, Blücher, Friedrich, Moltke... oh god, maybe even some more

Manstein3 · January 13, 2002, 11:05

a lot to say for me...

@Locutus
the Gemans may have been famous for their tanks in WW II, but first, this was not theri Golden Age IMO and second, the early tanks weren't better, but worse than French and Russian one. the German superiority resulted from Tank STRATEGY (instead of using them as support for infantry), coordination with air forces (stuka, which also were quite bad planes regarded isolated at), and General Staff (which really would be the genuine German (Military) wonder, beside Bachs Cathedral and the printing press)

Teh prussians did not conquer Germany. They fought a war against Austria and got Silesia (now in Poland), against Denmark and got Schleswig, and against Napoleon and got huge Rhine territories and Saxon, I thin, which was allied to Nap.
Teutonic knights are a godd idea. They really were superior as individuals, for instance against muslime warriors because of their 'Kettenhemd', an iron-wired 'pull-over', so to speak. But the French were the same kind at that time...

Germany IMO hat two golden ages, in the time around 1200, when ist was the natural leader of Europe and expanded till Sicily and Eastern Europe - until the German Kaiser did fail in forming a national Empire like the French and English consolidated at that time.
Second one was after napoleons defeat until the first World War, when Germany was leading in art, culture, science, economy (surpassing Britain around 1880), military... After Bismarck the wrong people were in command, ruining a nation - and Europe along with it. Germany and France always have been the heart of Europe since the decline of the Roman Empire.