things not to like about Civ3

mrbilll · November 16, 2001, 08:20

Attention Civ Nazis- This involves CRITICISM of your sacred cow, which you will inevitably refer to as WHINING. I'm going to try and start an adult, rational discussion of how C3 could be better. There are flaming scorch marks all over this board- your opinion of those who dare criticize the Holy Sid are well known. Don't bother.

Now, for the rest of you, this is not a comprehensive list, feel free to jump in-

Bug fixes, of course. The million dollar bug doesn't trouble me. Just don't ask anyone for a million dollars. (Though I wish I could find a bug like that in real life

) But other bugs render fighters and coastal fortresses, for example, worthless. IMHO, the city governors are worthless, as they are. They should have turned them off, and "added" them back in with the first patch. As they are, they're a nuisance that needs steady babysitting, rather than the help that was intended.

Air and Naval war, never a strong suit of Civ, to be honest, are worse than usual. I don't know how much of that is bugs, and how much is just tweaking and balancing, but they're kind of disappointing. Same with nukes. I can tell they're worried about game balance. Militarily, real nukes are VERY unbalancing. Fine. Let them be like the planetbusters of SMAC. Devastating, but with SEVERE diplomatic and environmental repercussions. They'd still be usable, but only if you've got a very good reason.

I love the addition of a queue, but the controls and display are pretty counterintuitive, even after several games. Again, see how it was handled in SMAC. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I know they wanted to keep the game flowing, but I admit, I miss the Wonder movies.

This is a question of style, maybe, but I think they've really hosed some of the wonders. The Great Library seems to expire instantly, and the Great Wall really isn't even worth building in the first place.

I'd like some way to guage the cultural attitude of a city. Are they about to jump ship? Are they happy? How long do I have to say, build a temple to boost the local culture? How many military units will I need to keep them from defecting? For that matter, how about giving the units a chance to evacuate or put the rebellion down, instead of just vanishing?

Seems to me, if you start in a location with no rivers semi-nearby, you're scrooed. Start over. Electricity comes way too late in the game to do your dried up civ any good. In all but the most arid places, people were able to get SOME source of water, even if major rivers were not available. Anyone think I'm wrong on this one? I'm all ears.

Everyone's favorite. Corruption. Lookit, guys, this is just hosed, no matter how you try to spin it. It warps the entire way the game is played, and it's not just a new "challenge". No, I don't wanna go play Civ2, and I have changed many tactics and habits to adapt to Civ3. But this part of the game just can't be compensated for properly. The options for coping with it are few and pathetically ineffective. Make it expensive, difficult, and inefficient. Make it a fact of life. But give me some viable way to deal with it. Only then will it be a challenge, instead of just a game stopping pain in the a$$.

I don't WANT to plan my strategy around it- Yeah, I know that if you edit it, pick map X, space your cities just so, lumberjack, and raze cities instead of taking them, you can ease the suffering somewhat. But puh-leeze. Just the fact that people are going through all of these contortions to compensate should tell you something.

Agree/disagree?

Robert Plomp · November 16, 2001, 08:31

Quote:

Agree/disagree?

it doesn't matter if I agree or disagree.
I'm just growing sick of all those people that start new threads to discuss the same things.

Can any mod plz start removing double-threads ?
The important threads sunk to page 5 or 6......
it's getting boring

GodSpawn · November 16, 2001, 08:40

[To the thread starter]

Have you not been reading these boards? Can you not see that you're just repeating stuff that's been said many, many times before?

Bubba_B · November 16, 2001, 08:49

Quick and to the Point.......

Air bugs do make game unplayable late....Fix

Naval Warfare should be just that "Naval" small impact on land battles....No fix
Except of course those Jarheads....er I mean Marines

Air Combat......what air combat! Its broke.

Governors........FIX

Controls.....No fix

Movies.....

Culture.....No fix

Great Library......Fix
Wall......Never liked it

Corruption.......Yes needs tweaked, but not too much.

Cyber is right too...
This is getting a bit repetitive

Fraxis should get the idea by now.......I hope

Raleigh · November 17, 2001, 14:33

1. Excellent, well written thread (except for the dramatic introduction). All valid points.

2. Repetition is useful because, HOPEFULLY, someone from the design staff reads some of these. The more people that complain about certain features, the more possibility they will take these constructive criticisms as indicative of a consensus and not the product of a single unhappy customer.

3. If you are tired of reading "double threads" look at the title, "things not to like about civ 3," and judge accordingly before you read. You know it will certainly criticize the game. If you are asking for new criticisms with each new thread of this variety, keep in mind that:

a. Perhaps it is a sign of the game's greatness, that virtually all the complaints have come out and no new ones are availabe

b. Not everyone is willing to read 500 posts back to see what everyone else said (admitedly, not that these same complaints don't make it to the board every day

David Murray · November 17, 2001, 14:36

OK mrbill, I don't think any of the "Nazis" really think that criticism should be stifled, but the fact that you haven't really said anything new, nothing that hasn't been said dozens of times before, doesn't help much.

Also, a few bugs and a few gameplay issues are not a valid reason to claim that Civ3 is a bad game not worthy of being "liked". Like most of the negative posters, you haven't discussed any of the positive new additions to the game, and in fact you are claiming that Civ3 is not worthy of being "liked" on the basis of a small number of mostly fixable/editable issues.

Monoriu · November 17, 2001, 16:09

"Attention Civ Nazis- This involves CRITICISM of your sacred cow, which you will inevitably refer to as WHINING. I'm going to try and start an adult, rational discussion of how C3 could be better. There are flaming scorch marks all over this board- your opinion of those who dare criticize the Holy Sid are well known. Don't bother. "

I consider myself a great fan of civ 3, Sid, Firaxis and all that. But I still welcome constructive criticisms like yours.

Now, for the rest of you, this is not a comprehensive list, feel free to jump in-

"Bug fixes, of course. The million dollar bug doesn't trouble me. Just don't ask anyone for a million dollars. (Though I wish I could find a bug like that in real life ) But other bugs render fighters and coastal fortresses, for example, worthless. "

Can't see how anyone can disagree with these.

"IMHO, the city governors are worthless, as they are. They should have turned them off, and "added" them back in with the first patch. As they are, they're a nuisance that needs steady babysitting, rather than the help that was intended. "

Agreed.

Air and Naval war, never a strong suit of Civ, to be honest, are worse than usual. I don't know how much of that is bugs, and how much is just tweaking and balancing, but they're kind of disappointing.

Disagree. Air and naval combat are just different from civ 2, not worse.

"Same with nukes. I can tell they're worried about game balance. Militarily, real nukes are VERY unbalancing. Fine. Let them be like the planetbusters of SMAC. Devastating, but with SEVERE diplomatic and environmental repercussions. They'd still be usable, but only if you've got a very good reason. "

I like nukes the way they are. Too powerful nukes make the game less fun.

I love the addition of a queue, but the controls and display are pretty counterintuitive, even after several games. Again, see how it was handled in SMAC. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Agreed.

"I know they wanted to keep the game flowing, but I admit, I miss the Wonder movies. "

If there are wonder movies, great. If there aren't any, doesn't bother me.

"This is a question of style, maybe, but I think they've really hosed some of the wonders. The Great Library seems to expire instantly, and the Great Wall really isn't even worth building in the first place. "

I don't mind some tweaks to the wonders, though I am not too troubled by their current state.

"I'd like some way to guage the cultural attitude of a city. Are they about to jump ship? Are they happy? How long do I have to say, build a temple to boost the local culture? How many military units will I need to keep them from defecting? For that matter, how about giving the units a chance to evacuate or put the rebellion down, instead of just vanishing? "

Agreed.

Seems to me, if you start in a location with no rivers semi-nearby, you're scrooed. Start over. Electricity comes way too late in the game to do your dried up civ any good. In all but the most arid places, people were able to get SOME source of water, even if major rivers were not available. Anyone think I'm wrong on this one? I'm all ears.

Disagree. Irrigation is useless under despotism unless you got a food resource, so you have plenty of time to find a source. Then you can irrigate from a source far away. In most cases you can. It is true that there are cases where its impossible to irrigate a large area of the map. If you are unlucky enough to start in those areas, re-start.

"Everyone's favorite. Corruption. Lookit, guys, this is just hosed, no matter how you try to spin it. It warps the entire way the game is played, and it's not just a new "challenge". No, I don't wanna go play Civ2, and I have changed many tactics and habits to adapt to Civ3. But this part of the game just can't be compensated for properly. The options for coping with it are few and pathetically ineffective. Make it expensive, difficult, and inefficient. Make it a fact of life. But give me some viable way to deal with it. Only then will it be a challenge, instead of just a game stopping pain in the a$$. "

Rampant corruption = ok. No effective ways to deal with corruption = NOT ok, unfortunately, that's the case right now. We need more ways to deal with corruption.

mrbilll · November 18, 2001, 10:53

couldn't resist the "CivNazi" shot. I didn't have any particular person in mind. I've just seen too many variations of-

"I don't like.."- "AAAHHHGG! SHADDUP! GET LOST, YOU NEWBIE!"

This is the perfect place to start a discussion, even if there's some repetition. I realize I'm not saying anything new, I'm just trying to start a better quality of thread. Thanks for the feedback.

Monoriu-

Yes, I find it very easy to "hopscotch" irrigation to distant cites- IF there's a source of water, and no mountains in the way. It's just that certain things, water supply, corruption, and the oil resources to name three, can seriously warp or stop an otherwise good game.

These are good concepts. But since this is a game, and not a real life rules historical simulator, I feel there should be other options. The challenges of resource management and corruption are fine. But if you find yourself painted into a corner, you should have some way to manuever out, rather than be forced to scrap the game and start over.

David Murray- If you care to look, you will find another thread of mine, entitled "Things to LIKE about Civ 3". I've made many positive posts, and even on this one, I'm trying to be fair and constructive- which is exactly what's missing from too many of these duplicate threads.

Just for the record, though, my positive post has about 15% of the views of the negative one, and not a single reply.

David Murray · November 18, 2001, 11:42

Civ3...what's the word I'm looking for?...ah yes, Civ3 RAWKS.

Johnny_Was · November 18, 2001, 12:03

GREAT Post, mrbill!!

Don't worry about CyberShy; all that person does is run aroudd the boards pointing out how much certain posts are annoying and never offering anything constructive.

The point to repeating these threads is to get Firaxis to notice that maybe, just perhaps, possibly there might be some problems with their product (READ: Product; we paid for it - we get to complain when it doesn't work as expected).

These boards are for discussion, praise AND problem - if you, CyberShy, don't want to read the problem one's then DON'T - you can tell from the subject line what kind of post it's going to be. Only read threads entitled 'Let's-All-Collectively-Stick-Our-Tongues-Down-The-Back-Of-Firaxis-Trousers'.

Wow! Kind of got away from me...

Anyway.

great post, mrbill.

have a calm day

was

Wrong_shui · November 18, 2001, 12:05

Its ok, I just thought and expected it to be brilliant.

Bombardment - Either should be able to kill a unit or damage multiple units in that sqaure.

All the things mrbill said too with the exception of the irrigation, dont mind not being able to use sea water but i miss improved farm land.

David Murray · November 18, 2001, 14:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny_Was
Only read threads entitled 'Let's-All-Collectively-Stick-Our-Tongues-Down-The-Back-Of-Firaxis-Trousers'.

Are you familiar with the phrase: "Give credit where it's due"?

Johnny_Was · November 18, 2001, 14:44

David Murray:

That comment was directed specifically at CyberShy who seems unable to express anything but the monolithic assertion that this game is the Holy Grail...

But since you mention it; sure, I've heard of that phrase and Firaxis is due some credit - 'Culture' is a great addition, not being able to 'Hold-Build' Wonders is a nice change, the way Resources are now handled is a great addition - but largely they deserve a short, sharp rap across the knuckles.

I'm sure I don't need to delineate the elements that a growing number of players consider problematic with this title; there are plenty of threads devoted to them.

For example:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=34074

have a calm day

was

Venger · November 18, 2001, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny_Was
David Murray:

That comment was directed specifically at CyberShy who seems unable to express anything but the monolithic assertion that this game is the Holy Grail...

God no kidding...does someone at Firaxis have pictures of him fuçking a goat or something? Cause he sure carries on like he's under some type of Firaxian mind control...

Quote:

but largely they deserve a short, sharp rap across the knuckles.

Heh, I think I like this guy...

Venger

Zylka · November 18, 2001, 15:14

Guys... If you're sick of these posts, just don't read them. The title was clear enough.

Mr. Bill, I have faith in the patch when we reitorate like this. No worries, eh?

Zylka · November 18, 2001, 15:15

DP

Slax · November 18, 2001, 15:18

Quote:

Originally posted by CyberShy
Can any mod plz start removing double-threads ?
The important threads sunk to page 5 or 6......
it's getting boring

Perhaps those "important" threads are not generating any interest.