Disable P-busters & pop-booming?

thorwahl999 · November 19, 2001, 21:55

Been playing SMAC and SMAX for 2 years or and and im still loving it. Since Civ 3 didnt live up to my (and possibly others) expectations im gonna start playing SMAX again. Love the game, but would really like to disable 2 of the most unbalanced features, ie pop-booming and planetbusters (when i get either i know i have won the game regardless of AI opponents ranking). Anyone around who knows how or even if this could be done? Ive been tinkering around with the alphax/alpha.txt files, but these seem to be hardcoded features (i could be wrong).
Sure hope someone knows how this could be figured out..

Thorwahl

yavoon · November 19, 2001, 22:10

for pop booming u can make it exceedingly hard to get a combined +6 growth. if yer in smax this can get tricky, but u'll figure it out. its ok if eudamania and the vats still let you boom, cuz those are way past the critical point in the game. but if u wna take vats out, just make its prerequisite tech will to power, or something really high.

same w/ planet busters, make the missile chasis require will to power, eud, or some really high tech. effectively taking it out. I think u can also disable them, but I've never done that cuz I"m lazy.

thorwahl999 · November 19, 2001, 22:23

Thanks for the quick response

I'll try those things - i think ill make future tech a prereq for planetbusters and cloning vats. I can refrain from booming using social engineering which is only fair since the AI never does it. Cloning vats if different tho since the AI DOES like to build that.

Thorwahl

Basil · November 20, 2001, 01:14

You can considerably reduce pop booming by changing a few lines in alpha.txt/alphax.txt:

Change:
10, ; Nutrient cost multiplier
to
9, ; Nutrient cost multiplier

And change:
Frontier, None,
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC
Democratic, EthCalc, ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --SUPPORT
Fundamentalist, Brain, +MORALE, ++PROBE, --RESEARCH
to
Frontier, None, -GROWTH
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC, -GROWTH
Democratic, EthCalc, ++EFFIC, +GROWTH, --SUPPORT
Fundamentalist, Brain, +MORALE, ++PROBE, --RESEARCH, -GROWTH

If you do this, it's also good to change Green to:
Green, CentEmp, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC, -GROWTH

Using these settings, your population growth will be unchanged under most SE settings. SE combinations like Demo/Planned still give you the fastest population growth, but they don't cause population booms. So this change makes pop booms hard without artificially causing you to avoid SE settings which should reasonably be good strategies.

(Edit: You can also give the Cloning Vats tech prerequisites of Disable, Disable, which will cause it never to be built.)

Ned · November 20, 2001, 02:54

I'm not so sure about the AI not pop booming. It seems that the AI LAL does it all the time because he often runs Demo, Planned and has Creches in most of his bases.

Ned

T-hawk · November 20, 2001, 12:03

Don't forget the other requirement for a pop boom -- FOOD! The AI Lal can meet the Growth conditions for a pop boom (although I seem to see him in Free Market more often than Planned) but won't have the food to take advantage of it. The computer doesn't build condensors, doesn't rush Hybrid Forests, and loves to ruin good rainy/rolling squares with mines (-1 food).

I've disabled booming in my games by simply setting Demo, Planned, and Eudaimonic to +1 growth instead of +2 (and Green to -1) and moving the Cloning Vats to Threshold of Transcendence (so I can still build it for the score.)

I hadn't thought of changing the nutrient cost multiplier, but that's a good idea to even out the differences between growth settings. (Set it to 9 and with +1 growth, it's still 9.)

As for Planet Busters, you can simply disable the planet buster in the weapons/modules list in alpha.txt by setting its prerequisite technology to Disable. Interestingly, the game uses Attack Strength = 99 to indicate a unit is a planet buster -- if you set, say, Impact to strength 99 and put it on an infantry unit, that infantry will cause a planet bust when it attacks. I _think_ you can set Planet Buster's strength to something other than 99 and you just get a really strong conventional missile. (Not sure how any of this affects the "I see you have planet busters" diplomacy.)

Flubber · November 20, 2001, 12:08

I am probably just lazy but I never see the need to alter the files if I find a tactic is unbalancing in my hands versus the AI. It is much simpler to impose self-handicaps such as

1. I may NEVER build planet-busters even if the AI does-- and the AI probably will if you do not alter the attributes

2..Creches and Golden Ages are not permitted and I may not build the CV-- ta da no pop booms--

These two rules limit the human but leave these tactics as possibilities for the AI. I have played with other self-handicaps like

1. No crawlers
2. No probes at all- or no bribing AI units or basesif I do allow probes
3. Limiting the number of SE changes to a fixed number per game ie 1,2,3-- (gets interesting when you realize you are "stuck" with your SE choices for the rest of the game-- really focues you on the SE-- ) Its not much of a limitation for Yang but for the rest it can be interesting

and many many more. Literally any tactic that you think is too strong or unbalancing against the AI-- Don't use it !! The challenge is to find different ways to win.

Lots of people fiddle with the files to make the game harder but I find that by following restrictions you can still make the game a lot of fun.

thorwahl999 · November 20, 2001, 17:39

Yeah, i love the game but at the same time feel its a bit too complex for the poor wittle AI

In my games i never allow myself choppers, supply crawlers or reloading (Ironman). Playing at transcend against the custommade superfactions which keeps the fun in the game during late midgame and early endgame. Reason i dont like planetbusters is that when you're able to build orbital def pods you have won the game. On another note.. thats usually HOW i end my games

- too lazy to conquer the entire world and i dont like trancending since it cuts the game too short. Normally (when i get tired if the game) i set all cities to produce planetbusters and sink the rest of the world beneath the sea

Never liked pop booming tho since its just plain to easy to get a crushing lead over the poor AIs when using it

Thorwahl

Rex Little · November 20, 2001, 18:29

Quote:

i never allow myself choppers

The idea that choppers are some kind of all-powerful unbalancing feature keeps coming up in SMAC discussions, and I don't understand it. In my games, by the time I'm building choppers the computer is building AAA units; if my chopper attacks one of those, either it loses outright, or wins but is weakened so much that it has to refuel before risking another attack. I think I get more bang for the buck with needlejets/penetrators.

Flubber · November 20, 2001, 18:55

Rex

you are right that choppers are not a "super unit" that automatically mows down everything but the attributes of long range and multiple attacks can make them quite valuable. The chopper hits with the same force as the equivalent needle and can press its attack mutiple times. Once you accept that a chopper is expendable, you can do a whole lot of damage through suicide runs at vulnerable bases/ units. Consider a cheap impact chopper can wipe the AIs entire former fleet and cherry pick any unarmoured troops. Down to 10% health and facing an armoured guy . . . self destruct the guy or destroy and improvement as a last act of bravado.

As for the AI and its AA units, I often find that the AI does not upgrade across the board. So cracking the AA defender means the rest are easy meat for following choppers--Often one chopper can take out the AA guy, another wipes out remaining defenders and ground/drop troops move into the base, then the helos follow to avoid end of turn damage.

The only area where I find the needle superior is in its ability to provide air cover for ground troops but this can be feeble indeed in the face of SAM weapons.

yavoon · November 20, 2001, 19:48

I'll try any # of schemes to make the ai better. I'll limit myself artificially, but if I can exchange that artificial limit for a rules limit in the .txt I usually do. its just idealogical, seems corny the other way.

in the end, I have fun by playing almost all my games in a challenge type setting. they're just normal games, but I exchange the start locations w/ friends and it plays out like a Golf match. since none of my schemes have yet to yield an ai strong enuff to beat me, outside of miriam getting the monsoon running over 4 other factions by year 60 and coming at me w/ 40 4-3-1 units in year 80.

yavoon · November 20, 2001, 19:52

as for the chopper guy,s ince I luv double posting. choppers to me are an extremely unbalancing unit. maybe not end all. but if u fight for super efficiency, u usually make choppers, and units to capture bases. now if that doesn't tell u something about how good the chopper is.

choppers just annhilate ur non superior air defense unit. all ur impact rovers, formers, crawlers, probes, nething w/o AAA and not in a base w/ an aerospace complex.

Rex Little · November 21, 2001, 20:08

Quote:

Consider a cheap impact chopper can wipe the AIs entire former fleet

I don't want to wipe out the AI's formers. The improvements they make will belong to me when I take over its bases.

Ned · November 21, 2001, 22:24

Rex, Disassociative Wave neutralizes AAA and restores the Chopper to a super weapon. Ned

Method · November 22, 2001, 20:48

ned you took the words right out of my mouth. i was just going to say: "so i guess you guys don't use WAVE then" because i guess that would as you said restore it to a "super unit". so i guess you don't allow the Cloudbase Accademy then either because its automatic +100% in all bases againts air. BTW are aerospace complexes and AAA cumulative or can you only have 1 or the other?

but while we're talking about WAVE, ned i was just thinking about your "run green/wealth during war and use native units" thing. the WAVE PSI chopper is unstoppable then because it fizzles trance (esp with twister). im to lazy to find/recover that thread so i'll post it here.

Flubber · November 22, 2001, 22:54

aerocomplexes and AA complement each other and allow a reasonable chance of defending a base until Wav and/or Blink (assuming you are not using nervegas) .

My math could be wrong but I believe my 3AA became a 12 defender due to AA and the AC. A nearby sensor added 25% so thats 15 and I am trying to remember if there was a 25% base benefit as well that brought it to 18.75 ( morale added more but that it is equally available to both attackers and defenders). In any event you can see that a chopper without Wav or Blink to get past one of thoes 100% would be hard pressed to do much damage unless you willing to sacrifice a few or are able to get some artillery working to weaken the defenders.

I had a MP game where I did experience the odd sensation of seeing my elite attack 12 chopper facing daunting odds while on the attack. I decided to send it on a suicide run through the opponents crawlers rather than crashing against the powerfully defended base

But the chopper was still very powerful and remained the most powerful unit in the game--Against a fully developed opponent, almost ANYTHING that is left in the open is subject to being shot down since any unit that you can name has SOME weak spots. Thats why I like the chopper's ability to strike repeatedly-- like needles, they are very poor on defense so really all you can try to do is hit your opponent so hard that he has nothing available for the counterattack

Ned · November 23, 2001, 01:28

TKG, Wealth/GA leads to + 2 econ. As well, +1 industry. This is easily the most productive SE setting available until Eudaimonia. It permits one to wage aggressive war by staying in out of FM. FM's negative police is a killer on aggresive war. With Panned, it permits several factions that have negative growth attributes to POP boom. With Green, it permits pod popping and worm or Ilse capture.

It's big downside is negative morale. However, this negative seems to have no effect on native life hatched in a base with a Brood Pit. With enough +1 life cycle enhancers, your Locusts, Sealurks, etc., are born Demon. Add the Nural Amplifier and later the Dream Twister, and you have a very formidable Great Green War Machine.

The best defense against an attack by such natives are -rt, AA units and an aerospace complex. Elite is nice as well. However, if the enemy uses -t, AA scouts, you then bring in your WAVE copters, which, though not elite, at least keeps the defense honest.

Ned

yavoon · November 23, 2001, 02:15

ned, u might wna tone down the theorystorm ur whirling up. actually making native life in ne mass is almost always totally inefficient, unless ur opponent simply doesn't see it coming. so its silly to even think about it. and relying on the dream twister like its a project you can get during ne important part of the game is kinda funny too.

Ned · November 23, 2001, 04:55

Yavoon, Try it sometime. It's fun.

BTW, I use Wealth+GA any chance I can. It is a great "SE" setting. This is why the HGP is critcally important. Helps to keep all bases in GA. Otherwise, bases with odd size numbers cannot achieve GA.

Ned

Flubber · November 23, 2001, 09:35

Ned

I have fun with native life as well but the problem is that they are oh so susceptible to artillery-- all the enhancements and modifiers don't help at all if they are 90% damaged before they even start fighting

I used to love IODs on the ocean until someone pointed out how very susceptible they are to bombardment.

I could see the green strat working better if you had some fungal missiles and could disperse your force and move in quickly without taking much arty fire --hmmmm

yavoon · November 23, 2001, 11:56

if ur opponent saw it u'd still die to trance scout patrols. I forget how much native life costs, but it aint cheap. and ur opponent can build gun weapon platforms for a fraction of the cost and be about even in firepower. and he has access to trance/empath while native life units don't.

if u attack really late, empath gun or wutever weapon u can get for free choppers and u might as well not show up

.

tis just inefficient

and yes wealth+GA isnice when you can do it. I usually have too many bases to be golden ageing my empire. since psych counts before all the other modifiers, my psych is usually pretty wasted on double drones and the like.

Flubber · November 23, 2001, 13:53

I always thought the best use of native life is in a mixed force (as implied by Ned). If a defender tried to get away with basic cheap trance scouts, they can be killed by higher attackers. As soon as the defender starts making more expensive defenders . . . well the native life is just as able to kill those as always and they are destroying the results of more minerals now.

As for the cost of native life, I usually employ natives when I am Dee or Cha (wealth unavailable so not relevant to the Wealth GA strat) and can use free natives-- If they die, it is not a big deal since every time you lose a worm, you increase your chance of capturing the next one. 5-6 are normal and sometimes you have as many as 10 captured to go with any you build.

and native life will usually beat a trance scout due - The 3:2 odds are equalized by trance but skewed to the Green attacker based on Planet rating. Worms are also likely to have a morale advantage (unless the opponent is running fundy or power and just getting an opponent to run those settings for a while can lead to productive advantages)but you cannot count on that

yavoon · November 23, 2001, 14:40

oh yah, capturing native life is fine. I luv doin that. its producing it thats not smart.

Sikander · November 23, 2001, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by yavoon
oh yah, capturing native life is fine. I luv doin that. its producing it thats not smart.

In general I agree that conventional weapons have numerous advantages. However strictly on a cost basis if your base produces a worm in one turn, then it is just as cost effective as anything else. Ned runs his mineral counts pretty high IIRC. I only build worms when I am desperately behind in military tech and being hassled by enemy aircraft or the like. Worms ca keep at least the AI off your butt while you catch up on tech.

Ned · November 23, 2001, 16:33

Actually the Great Green War Machine strategy requires directed research and a concentration on the "green" techs until one gets Centauri Genetics. This gives one the Pholus Mutagen and both Brood Pits and Locusts. The Pholus will add one lifecycle to native life. So will the Brood Pits. Brood Pits also lower native life costs by 25%. Finally, the Locusts are the weapon of choice in any Green offensive.

The research path to Centauri Genetics is relatively short. Many times, one can get there before other factions get Advanced Military Algorithms or Doctrine Air Power which can really put a crimp on the Green assault with AAA and airbases.

Even with an enemy with these defenses, if you also have the Nural Amplifier, Locusts are virtually invulnerable except to multiple attacks. They can wander freely in enemy territory, killing formers and crawlers, and ripping up terraforming. A real "Sherman's March to the Sea."

As to Wealth + GA, keep your efficiency high and the superdrones should not be much of a problem. However, if it is, it seems to me that you might rethink your strategy on numbers of bases. Beyond a certain number, each additional base is a real net liability for multiple reasons: b-drones and losses from inefficiency among them. In general, I try to keep the number of bases just below the second b-warning.

Ned

Flubber · November 23, 2001, 17:17

I have used natives but have never focused on them quite this much. Interesting ideas.

The only things I will quibble with are

1. the idea that Locusts are nearly invulnerable-- If the opponent has SAM and artillery they can bombard your locust-- and damage it 50-90%. The whole use of artillery against native life changed my ideas as to their invulverability--

2. the shortness of the tech path to centauri psi-- My tech tree shows adv Mil algorithms as a prereq for retro eng which is a prereq for Centauri genetics-- I don't know if I can accept an assumption that your opponents will not have a tech two steps down the tree from your target tech

yavoon · November 23, 2001, 18:21

we definitely don't have the same playstyle ned. under the second b warning on standard maps is 11 bases. + efficiency helps, but not a ton, and I don't have the formula in front of me. on standard maps I easily eclipse 30 bases. I just don't see how staying so incredibly small is gna work. golden ageing is a nice trick, and certainly w/ wealth its attractive, but I'd have 3x your bases mate. that'd have to be one impressive golden age.

I realize you can have some fun with green war machines, and they are cool. its just not efficient

trance is a HUGE damper on green war machines. just look at this, trance+sensor+base, and ur mindworm is ALWAYS going to be fighting uphill against a 10 mineral trance scout

. also realize that the neural amp, is over at neural grafting, not exactly on ur way to genetics if memory serves. AND it is on the way to clean units, which ur opponent will want very rapidly. so there's a large chance he gets the amplifier and not you. empath choppers are just your doom. its over by then. ne green whoopass ffrom then on will have to be by surprise.

tho to be fair, I do use locusts, I use them to capture bases after choppers annihilate the defense. they're great, they fly, never have to come home, and can occupy a base. beautiful. I use mind worms only if they're captured 99.5% of the time, they other .5% is if I don't have clean units, need an army, and can't afford the support cost, since mindworms are free if u keep em in fungus. but thats pretty damn rare.

I also like isle of the deep, but unfortunately I play on maps with lotsa land(helpin the computer), so I don't get to use too many of em.