*** URGENT! *** Tech Tree 2

[yin26]

Due to long download times, the updated "Master List" can be found here: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/001223.html .

Discussions should still continue at the General Discussion thread here: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HT...ml?date=04:52. Thanks guys! This is coming along.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 14, 2000).]

[yin26]

My additions for today. All are from britannica.com .


Paratroopers: "Mass drops of parachute troops had been pioneered by the Soviet Union in the 1930s, but the Luftwaffe first used the technique operationally, notably during the invasion of Crete, in which 15,000 airborne and parachute troops were landed onto that island by 700 transport aircraft and 80 gliders."--Yin

Destroyer: "The term destroyer was first used for the 250-ton vessels built in the 1890s to protect battleships from torpedo boats."--Yin

Cruiser: "As the designation for a specific type of warship, cruiser did not become current until about 1880, when navies had settled on iron-hulled ships powered solely by steam. Cruisers became the frigates of the steam era."--Yin

Battleship: "The battleship type had its genesis in the Gloire, a French oceangoing ironclad displacing 5,600 tons that was launched in 1859."--Yin

Cruise Missile: "Beginning in the 1950s, the Soviet Union pioneered the development of tactical air- and sea-launched cruise missiles, and in 1984 a strategic cruise missile given the NATO designation AS-15 Kent became operational aboard Tu-95 bombers."--Yin

Airport: "It was not until the general introduction of heavy monoplanes for transport, such as the Douglas DC-3, during the late 1930s that extensive takeoff and landing distances were needed. Even then, the prewar airfields at New York City (La Guardia), London (Croydon), Paris (Le Bourget), and Berlin (Tempelhof) were laid out on sites close to the city centres. Because even transport aircraft of the period were relatively light, paved runways were a rarity. Croydon, Tempelhof, and Le Bourget, for example, all operated from grass strips only. Early airports were also major centres of leisure activity, often attracting more visitors than passengers. In 1939 La Guardia Airport attracted almost a quarter-million visitors per month, reaching a peak of 7,000 in one day, compared with a maximum daily throughput of only 3,000 passengers. In 1929 Berlin's airport reported 750,000 visitors and boasted a restaurant that could seat 3,000 people on the roof of the passenger terminal."--Yin

Aqueduct: "Although the Romans are considered the greatest aqueduct builders of the ancient world, qanat systems were in use in ancient Persia, India, Egypt, and other Middle Eastern countries hundreds of years earlier. These systems utilized tunnels tapped into hillsides that brought water for irrigation to the plains below. Somewhat closer in appearance to the classic Roman structure was a limestone aqueduct built by the Assyrians around 691 BC to bring fresh water to the city of Nineveh. The elaborate system that served the capital of the Roman Empire, however, remains a major engineering achievement. Over a period of 500 years--from 312 BC to AD 226--11 aqueducts were built to bring water to Rome from as far away as 57 miles (92 kilometres)."--Yin

Bank: "Banking is of ancient origin, though little is known about it prior to the 13th century. Many of the early "banks" dealt primarily in coin and bullion, much of their business being money changing and the supplying of foreign and domestic coin of the correct weight and fineness...English bankers in particular had by the 17th century begun to develop a deposit banking business, and the techniques they evolved were to prove influential elsewhere."--Yin

Barracks: Of course the concept of housing warriors must be as old as the concept of warriors itself, the word "Barracks" has this history: "Etymology: French baraque hut, from Catalan barraca; Date: 1686"--Yin

City Walls: City Walls must be pretty darn old! I mean, Jericho had them--but those were blown over by some trumpets. A great semi-modern example, though: "Old Walled City of Shibam, Yemen. Surrounded by a fortified wall, the 16th-century city of Shibam is one of the oldest and best examples of urban planning based on the principle of vertical construction. Its impressive tower-like structures rise out of the cliff and have given the city the nickname of 'the Manhattan of the desert'."--Yin
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 10, 2000).]

[colossus]

Some comment about Phalanx:

The kind of Greek heavy infantry armed with long spear and large round shield is called hoplite, from the name of the shield-hoplon, in Greek.

The might of hoplite did not arise from the long spear, the large shield, or the dense formation, but the overwhelming discipline and harshness of the citizen-soldier.

Phalanx is the name given to Philip's army when he reorganized the hoplite, grouping them into close, deep formation. Thus phalanx was a military formation of a particular unit, whereas hoplite was the name of the unit.

Historically, hoplite came in the archaic period, circa 700B.C., and phalanx came with Philip, in around 340B.C..

Masonry:

The first stonebuild structure is the Step Pyramid and its Funerary Complex of Djoser (3rd Dynasty, 2630-2611 BC) in Saqqara, Egypt. It was build by the architect Imhotep who was later deified in the Ptolemaic era.

Side note: Maybe we should date the Pyramids to this time as well, as it predates the Gizah Pyramids.

[The Mad Viking]

Railroad (more precise)The first commercial railroad opened in France in 1828, and began carrying passengers in 1832. The Liverpool to Manchester line opened in 1830.

Steam Engine -after working with prototypes for several years, James Watt developed a functional steam engine in 1775.

Automobile - the very first was actually in 1769, a steam carriage using a prototype engine, developed by N.J.Cugnot. I think, however, that the Automobile in Civ2 uses an internal combustion engine.

Steel- modern steel could be said to be invented with the development of the crucible smelting process by English inventor Benjamin Huntsman, in 1740. Possible use of carbon and iron goes way way back...

Magnetism - could mean anything. Given how it fits into the advances, you could argue that it refers to the Mariner's Compass. This is accounted first by Alexader Neckam in 1125. (the chinese were probably playing with some form of compass back in 271AD but that didn't give them Galleons or Frigates...

Navigation - well, in 850AD the astrolabe was perfected by the Arabs.

University - Constaninople University founded in 425AD. Salerno University founded 850AD was major factor, founding a medical school in 900 and publishing the important medical work "Practica" (Petrocellus) in 1040

Iron Working - Iron Age in Syria and Palestine started about 1500 BC. Iron was noted in Greece between 1000 and 900BC, and soldering of iron inveneted by Glaucus of Chios between 700 and 600 BC.

Trade - I vote for betwen 700 and 600 BC in Babylonia (Ninevah, where documents show sales, exchange, rentals, leases, loan interest and mortgages.) Obviously "trade" existed much earlier (prehistoric) but this is sophisticated trade. You could go with the Egyptions, who did a lot of trading in 1500 to 1000BC or the Phoenicians,

"Great Wall" of Uruk, with 900 towers, built between 3000 and 2500 BC. This is probably a good date for first City Walls

Mathematics - Could use the Chinese from between 1000 and 1500BC, who developed mathematic permuations, magic squares and the "Pythagorean" concept of right angle triangles.

Invention - (totally arbitrary) but I like Pappus of Alexandria, who described the use of the cogwheel (gears) levers, pulleys, screws and wedges, in 285AD. DaVinci invented the parachute in 1480, and the water wheel in 1510. They don't say if he was in his workshop at the time...

Hanging Gardens - Nebuchadnezzar II's palace with terraced gardens, built between shortly after 600 BC.

Archers - between 2500 and 2000 BC.

Triremes - definitely between 600 (first) and 500 BC (dominant) Actually very little hold- had 170 oarsmen and only 14 to 20 soldiers. Used as an anti-shipping weapon.

Alphabet - developed as pictographs reduced to more abstract symbols. Sumerian Cuneiform, by about 3000BC had reduced pictographs still in use to about 550.

Masonry - I like 3500 BC, Masons noted as craftsmen and temples built in Eridu, Al Ubaid and Uruk. (by 3000BC)

Currency - Sumerian metal coins were replacing barley as legal tender by 2500BC.

I love this thread

Source: The Timetables of History, Bernard Grun. translated from German in 1975 and updated in 1979 (Not the most up to date, but certainly comprehensive!)
[This message has been edited by The Mad Viking (edited March 10, 2000).]

[S. Kroeze]

Alphabet:
'The evolution of the alphabet involved two important achievements. The first was the step taken by a group of Semitic-speaking people, perhaps the Phoenicians, on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean between 1700 and 1500 BC. This was the invention of a consonantal writing system known as North Semitic. The second was the invention, by the Greeks, of characters for representing vowels. This step occurred between 800 and 700BC. While some scholars consider the Semitic writing system an unvocalized syllabary and the Greek system the true alphabet, both are treated here as forms of the alphabet.'
source: Britannica.com

I would argue that an alphabet without signs for vowels essentially is not yet a true alphabet.

Writing:
'A greatly elaborated set of these clay shapes, some shaped like jars and some like various animals, and occasionally inserted in clay envelopes, date from 3500BC, about the time of the rise of cities. Some of the envelopes have markings corresponding to the clay shapes inside. Moreover, these markings are more or less similar to the shapes drawn on clay tablets that date back to about 3100 BC and that are unambiguously related to the Sumerian language. These markings are thought to constitute a logographic form of writing consisting of some 1,200 different characters representing numerals, names, and such material objects as cloth and cow.'
source: Britannica.com, article 'Sumerian writing'; this view is supported by G.Roux: "Ancient Iraq",1992

So I still think it highly probable writing was invented here, not in Egypt.
There seems also some confusion about the chronological order of writing and alphabet, though the two are essentially different.
This is clearly a grave mistake of the CivII tech tree, which we shouldn't try to argue away! There are a lot more. Mick Uhl, in my opinion the best scenario editor, corrected it in his scenarios.

Monarchy
The most logical date: ~3100BCUnification of Egypt by Mena(Menes), resulting in the first 'national' state. Monarchy, supported by gods and priests, is certainly older than
Despotism
Sargon of Akkad(~2334-2279BC),(dates contested), who plundered all the lands of Mesopotamia around his capitol city of Kish, was the first king whose power rested as much on the army as upon religion.

Bronze Working
the introcuction of bronze weapons and armour, starting in Mesopotamia about 3500BC

the Wheel
the chariot (NB: not the war chariot) for carrying goods was invented ~3500BC

War Chariot
soon after 1800BC: invention of light but sturdy two-wheeled vehicles that could dash about the field of battle behind a team of galloping horses without upsetting or breaking down. The compound bow was an important part of the charioteers' equipment.
NB: the chariot is older than Horse back riding!

Iron Working
The discovery of how to make serviceable tools and weapons of iron occurred somewhere in eastern Asia Minor about 1400BC

Warrior Code
In my opinion there are two possible candidates of people who developed a martial style of life: the Indo-Europeans, whose migration started before 2000BC; or the Assyrians, who from about 900BC started their period of expansion

Catapult
During the Assyrian Empire935-612BC a complex array of devices for besieging fortified cities was invented; they carried a siege train with them on campaign as a matter of course.

Sources: Encyclopaedia Britannica
W.H.McNeill: "The Pursuit of Power",1983
F.G.Naerebout/H.W.Singor: "De oudheid",1995
G.Roux: "Ancient Iraq",1992

[Gord McLeod]

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 03-10-2000 01:54 PM Steam Engine -after working with prototypes for several years, James Watt developed a functional steam engine in 1775. ... [This message has been edited by The Mad Viking (edited March 10, 2000).]

I'm at work or I'd look this up, but I'd check into this more carefully - the ancient Romans had steam engines that were commonly used in theatre productions of the time. They were never used to power vehicles, but they did use steam engines to move water and raise/lower platforms and so on... mostly simple tricks and so on, but the principles behind the steam engine were well known over 1000 years ago.
[This message has been edited by Gord McLeod (edited March 10, 2000).]

quote: I would argue that an alphabet without signs for vowels essentially is not yet a true alphabet.

In which case Hebrew is not a language. I disagree. Personally I think even pictogrammatical alphabets like the Hieroglyphs of Egypt are "True Alphabets".

All quotes are from Britannica.com:

Nuclear Power:

"In 1953 President Dwight D. Eisenhower of the United States announced the Atoms for Peace program. This program established the groundwork for a formal U.S. nuclear power program and expedited international cooperation on nuclear power."

"During the late 1950s and early 1960s a number of true commercial prototype nuclear power plants were built."

Nuclear Fission:

Has not been achieved for commercial use yet. (Put it down as 2010, I'd say)

Philosophy:

"There is a consensus, dating back at least to the 4th century BC and continuing to the present, that the first Greek philosopher was Thales of Miletus, who flourished in the first half of the 6th century BC. "

Physics:

Are we talking Greek physics here? Otherwise (which I suspect) We're talking the Scientific revolution which could be said to have started in 1543 with Copernicus' theory of the Universe, or the final breakdown of Aristotle which came with Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principa Matematica in 1687.

Plastics:

"The first such material to be manufactured was Parkesine, developed by the British inventor Alexander Parkes. Parkesine, made from a mixture of chloroform and castor oil, was "a substance hard as horn, but as flexible as leather, capable of being cast or stamped, painted, dyed or carved . . . " The words are from a guide to the International Exhibition of 1862 in London, at which Parkesine won a bronze medal for its inventor."

Refining:

"The refining of crude petroleum owes its origin to the successful drilling of the first oil well in Titusville, Pa., in 1859."

Refrigeration:

"Commercial refrigeration is believed to have been initiated by an American businessman, Alexander C. Twinning, in 1856."

And yin, it's still not "Mini-Ball" or "Minie-Ball". It's "Minié Ball", two words, accent on the e. You seem to be having problems with that one...

[yin26]

Hugo,

My computer at work uses Korean text, so some English and foreign characters get garbled. I'm reading this at home now and can finally read it. I'll make the change.

Update coming soon. Great work guys!

[Atahualpa]

Yin, I think, you shouldnt find the very first of these units, but the first, that were commonly used. 1592 for an ironclad is, well, unrealistic! There was maybe one pre-ironclad for the whole world.
In 1592 Ironclad did NOT dominate the sea in fact, I am sure nobody knew anything about them.
Ironclads came up later 1862 when Britain began to build them on a greater level (they had 2 in the beginnings but quickly rose them to 5). And even in 1862 the common type of ships were wooden frigates.
If you want to make this list realistic, dont head for the very very first, that may have existed somewhere, but head for those, who did play an important role, or when humanity got interested in them.
I would suggest writing: Ironclad: 1861/62 (prototype existed already in 1592).
Else, this will become a bit unrealistic.

My 2 cents,
Ata

[Gord McLeod]

I think I have to disagree there. In Civilization the appearance of a technology represents the point at which you are capable of doing something... it says nothing about whether you WILL do something with it, however. Likewise, the fact that ironclads were invented in 1592 indicates simply the point at which we were capable of building them, and knew of the concept... it doesn't mean anyone put that concept or knowledge to use. There are frequently points in Civ/SMAC/whatever where I'll have the capability of building a unit or type of unit, but never actually go ahead and do so - for instance, I just 10 minutes ago finished a game of SMAC in which I didn't build a single needlejet. Indeed, the only air unit I built all game was a single Quantum Planetbuster, which remained in one of my bases at all times... it was never used.

When talking about technological advances... the first appearance is the one that does matter, not really the first time someone chose to implement the idea. The idea can be built on, even if it's never used as-is.

[yin26]

Ata,

That's an interesting point, and one I thought about when I started. This is why I'm including everybody's take on given issue so when the "final" version comes out, we can give people a full picture of what we found.

But in the case of the Ironclad, you say "In 1592 Ironclad did NOT dominate the sea in fact, I am sure nobody knew anything about them." Well, SOME people knew about them , and while they didn't dominate the sea, they dominated a very important battle against the Japanese. In the same way, Britain only had 2 of these in 1862 (a full 300 years later, mind you!)--and they certainly didn't dominate the sea, either.

One of the reasons I started this project, in fact, was to try to fill some of the "cultural/historical" misconceptions about these issues. Even if we all agree that the Korean ironclad was "historically rather unimportant," we would all benefit greatly from understanding that neither the British nor the Americans came up with the idea first. Same with the way we are discussing the Phalanx or the Alphabet, etc. Otherwise we promote misconceptions.

But I like your compromise with the prototype idea. It doesn't matter to me personally if one point in history is given preference, but we ought not ignore the FIRST instance. That's what a discovery is, after all. And Gord's point is also true: Just because nobody used ironclads for another 300 years doesn't mean they weren't already around.

By the way, when it comes time to put the final wording on all this stuff, would you be interested in helping?

[yin26]

Whew! UPDATED!

[Youngsun]

Ata

It is true the term "Ironclad" was commonly used after 1862 but the definition of ironclad(a ship armoured and armed with cannons)still include the Turtle-ship perfectly.

Check this out!
www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/DEALL/culture/eall131/related.htm

I also did not know the "Turtle-ship" could use even "smoke and flame" as well until I found this site.

Read year 1592
www.sanctum.com/realty/remax/hd/Early.html

And please read some more Oriental history books to learn more about them. I recommended "Shogun" to other people in other post. It's really great to read and Midknight Lament will agree with me.

[Atahualpa]

okay convinced.

But I still think we should write it with the prototype date. Cause, just look at the Frigate that was used in the 17th century. Now the turtle ship came up at the END of the 16th century. And in civ, you get the frigate BEFORE you get the Ironclad. So I guess the designers, did take the 1871/72 Ironclad.
Generally, we could give two dates: One date for the time when they were commonly used and the other where they were invented. With the Phalanx we could then write: 700BC (commonly used in 340BC).
The Ironclad would then look like: 1592AD (commonly used after 1871/72).

I think this approach would be fine for everybody. Of course this solution would only apply to those things where the dates between invention and usage differ. Cause I dont think, they built an airport but then use it 10 years later

Yin as for helping, I dont want to make any promises yet, as I dont know how stressing it will be with university. Could be that I have no time and it could be that i have all the time. Nevertheless drop me a mail and I'll see what I can do.

ATa

[Harel]

Not a lot, but here is my contribution...

[*]AEGIS Cruiser: First AEGIS cruiser is the US Virginia class, at 1971 AD.[*]Chemistry: The german guy was August Wiliham Fon Hofman. Chemistry should be set to the Offical "Crystal palace" exhibit, 1851 AD.[*]Courthouse: To my knowladge, the first offical courts were used in Egypt, after the Demotic tongue came to use. They should be put at 700 BC.[*]Mass Transit: First mass-transit system in London, 1863.[*]Police Station: The first police station was the order of the vigiles, that was established at Rome at 6 AD, after a large fire.[*]Electricity: First observed at 1780 AD, when the effect of electricty was observed on dead animals. However, Volta expriments with battaries should be the first date. His batteries became famoused in 1800 AD.[*]Electronics: It's hard to define when we got electronics, but the real development in using electricty was by Telsa. He's famous Telsa generator was built in 1899 AD.[*]Labor Union: The first movement toward a labor union was at the US, starting at 1866 AD.[*]The Laser: The move from the basic MAZER to a useful LASER was at 1960 AD, by Charles H Toans.[*]Miniaturization: Can only be applied to the discovery of the Transistor, at 1947 AD.[*]Republic: The roman republic was first founded in 509 BC, after the throw of Lucius Superbus.[*]Superconductor: The concept was first observed in 1911, but the first material to achieve super-

All dates from Britanica.com and my own Britanica at home.

[Harel]

Sorry, double post...
[This message has been edited by Harel (edited March 11, 2000).]

[NoviceCEO]

Although I should be wrong in many of my statements, I'd like to clarify somethings.

I said that cavalry and armor was invented by the Assyrians. I may be wrong for getting confused with English terms, but the Assyrians attacked with massive numbers of horsemen, which used heavy armor (in those days it was considered heavy) and weapons.

The mesopotamians where all pretty much Mystics and the Persians (which were not mesopotamians) were even more.

About Polyhteism I said it's been there since man exists, because I bet that since it learned how to think it blamed the gods for his problems.

About Leadership, monkeys did knew. But if you're talking about tatical leadership, it's another history. Almost every group of animals who live in groups has a leader. Even the ants have some sort of leadership.

Regarding the invention of flight, follows a quote from britannica.com:

quote: Becoming interested in aerial flight, he made a balloon ascent in 1898 and then began to construct dirigible airships. After many failures he built one that in 1901 won the Deutsch Prize and a prize from the Brazilian government for the first flight in a given time from Saint-Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and return. Shortly after the Wright brothers' flights in 1903, Santos-Dumont turned his attention to heavier-than-air machines. After experimenting with a vertical-propeller model, in 1906 he built a machine, the 14-bis, on the principle of the box kite, and in October he won the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize for the first officially observed powered flight in Europe; in November he flew 220 metres in 21 seconds.

Concluding from that, the first flight with a dirigible airship was made by Santos Dummont in 1901.

Dummont is had as the official inventor of Flight (at least for the patriot Brazilians), as he build and flew the first "heavier-than-air" machine. Unlike the Wright's flight, his' was obsorved by plenty of witness. Date:1906.

Take a look at Wright, Wilbur and Orville, also from britannica.com:

quote: American brothers, inventors, and aviation pioneers who achieved the first powered, sustained, and controlled airplane flight (1903) and built and flew the first fully practical airplane (1905).

About Stealth Flight, I believe there were other stealth planes before the F117. But... taking a look at britannica, I can't find anything prior to it. I thought there was a plane, a scout one, who was invisible to radars and could fly at high-supersonic speeds. It was used during the Cold War, to spy Russia. If I'm not wrong, the plane was knew as U-2 (but maybe I'm just full of ****). As britannica says, most material about stealth equipments is classified.

I suggest you Yin, that later on you repost this thread, by parts (and don't post the second part before the first has been well discussed), so that we can be more accurate on dates and solve the different opnions.

Those were my bets. I hope I was able to help.

[yin26]

I'll update these soon...

Also, I think we should stick with Ata's suggestion about distinguishing the early instance from the "widely" used one. My reasoning is clear: We need to stop the misconceptions on some of these issues. The world simply will never know about Korea's ironclad ships unless they are given proper credit. I encountered enough of this problem in university (like professor's telling me the first novel and moveable type printing press were invented in Europe, when, in fact, they were already in Asia centuries earlier). You know what the professor said when I pointed this out to him?

"Well, this is a Western history class."

C'mon, quite a shady attitude for a professor making blanket statements about history, wouldn't you say?

As for the Ironclad, we can mark Korea down and also note when the first steam-powered one came around. In other words, it would be nice if people actually learned a fuller history of these things and let them come to their own conclusions about which instance was "more important."

Sorry for the sermon. I was having university flash-backs...

don Don,

Any chance you could confirm your dates? I suppose we'll need to confirm everything at some point, and I marvel at what you have "off the top" of your head, but I want to make sure we are correct. Thanks.

[Private Viper]

WOW!!!

------------------
Viper
viper@cnc.net.nz
CNCNZ

[Private Viper]

WOW!!!

There are way to many Civers with too much time on their hands out there

j/k

Great work guys, and I'm sorry I don't have anything new to add. Just to try and clear up the matter about stealth:

Yes, the U2 was invisible to the Russian radar, because it was unable to track objects that high. The Americans also had the SR-71 "Blackbird" spy plane, but it wasn't stalthy, it was just too fast to shoot down (it flew in the 70's, and it's still the OFFICIAL speed record holder for jet planes).

The first stealth plane, as far as I know, was the F-117 prototype, called X-something (sorry, I tried to find this out, but I couldn't find it anywhere).

Just my .02

------------------
Viper
viper@cnc.net.nz
CNCNZ

[Private Viper]

SOmthing went wrong with my mouse clicking. Don't even ask why I posted so many times, as I have no idea. Sorry again
[This message has been edited by Private Viper (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Private Viper]

Hmm... don't ask me how I managed to post this THRE times, but I did...

[This message has been edited by Private Viper (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Jon Miller]

Hi all,

first both nuclear fission and fusion have been reproduced in labratory environment

fission is what we use in our nuclear reactors, fusion is not yet economical(we put more power in then we get out)

superconductors have been observed in the usable range (far above 100 kelvin) but they are far too brittle (I could look through my APS journals to look for the most recent developements)

atom theory is the theory about the atom not that atoms exist and I would put it to Bohr (but some would argue rutherford)a little after the turn of the century

Jon Miller

[yin26]

UPDATED!

Also, per NoviceCEO's good suggestion, I'm now going to post this in parts in a separate thread so we can get detailed dates and background.

The first thread is here: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HT...tml?date=22:30


[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Hello Don Don

Hahaha! Ironclad vs Turtle? Would you make any comparison between bi-plane vs stealth fighter? and do you think it is a reasonable comparsion about things that have about 300 years of time gap?

What's the difference between those two?(Turtle and Ironclad) The most significant difference will be thier propulsion technologies right?

Simply because the Turtle ship used manpower and sail for its propulsion does not mean its not qualified as an ironclad. The thing we have to concern most here has to be the concept of arming a ship with cannons and making a ship armoured. The other technologies whatever they use "steam engine" or "sail" can be used anytime if they are available to the current time period.

And decisive use and repeated use?
Sure the Turtle-ship played decisive role and the Korean fleet, though outnumbered by the Japanese to 5:1, could claim decisive victories because of this little toy. The Turtle ship saw actions more than 15 times and 3 of them were decisive and major battles which included more than 100 vessels from both side.

If this Turtle ship things annoys you much maybe we have to agree on this to classify them as World first ironclad and World first steam engined ironclad. OK?

Then why not say World first bi-plane,world first mono-plane and world first jet plane rahter than saying world first airplane?

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 13, 2000).]

I hold that Advances don't represent the first occurance, but rather the first practical and repeatable use. They exist in some nacent form prior to becoming an Advance. That is why you know enough to be able to choose to study it.

Again, this is off the top o' my head, so the dates are fuzzy:

Just some comments on the Civ context as opposed to an absolute historic first:[list][*]Adv Flight: The DC-2 and DC-3 marked the development of the semi-monocoque airframe, in which the "skin" is part of the load-carrying structure instead of just plating applied to an open framework. I think it was '33.[*]Astronomy: Tied to Copernicus, it refers to the advances in both physical measurement and accurate timekeeping that began 15th c. and was fully realized in Brahe's measurements and Kepler's mathematical analysis. Copernicus' analysis was more conceptual than rigorously mathematical, but he was the forerunner.[*]Atomic Theory: There was a Greek philosopher who first proposed that each metal and other "pure" substance was composed of invisibly small, indivisible units called "atoms." What we call atomic theory today is really sub-atomic theory, which might be pinpointed to the discovery of the electron by, um, Johnson? 1880s?[*]Automobile: The auto was the toy of the rich until Ford made it practical. That's why I have long said that in Civ terms Auto and Mass Production are redundant.[*]Banking: Seems to refer to the credit draft banking developed first by Jewish merchants scattered throughout Europe prior to 12th c. but idealized in the Reserve Bank of England chartered under William II to finance a war with France, ~1695.[*]Bridge Building: Babylon (7th c. BCE) stradled the Euphrates and had bridges between the two parts; I doubt those were the first true bridges.[*]Chemistry: early 19th c., Mendeleev in particular. And who was the German guy who isolated potassium?[*]Code of Laws: Hammurabi was 18th c. BCE, IIRC[*]Engineering: I'd say Yuvo's 127 BCE first arched masonry bridge is the advent of engineering, since wooden beam bridges had been around for centuries.[*]Explosives: refers to invention of dynamite by Nobel, 1867. Everyone thought it was cool to blow up things without blowing up yourself in the process.[*]Gunpowder: the earliest decisive use in battle would be the seige of Constantinople, 1453. The Turks used fixed position 1m diameter wooden cannon firing stone shot. Later cannon ~½m dia. were carved of stone. Bronze cannon and compact iron shot were much less unwieldy, thus the military unit is tied instead to a vague advance called Metallurgy. As previously noted, Musketeers were first used as a distinct military unit in 1586, and since that is the unit made available that should be the date. I believe that an Italian militarist trained squads of men armed with arquebus in close formation drill a century earlier, but the idea didn't catch on.[*]Invention: The paradigm shift from the ancient and medieval wholistic view of mechanical devices to the analytical view of parts being separate things that could be improved or used in other mechanical constructions—credited to good ol' Leonardo da Vinci. He worked with a German locksmith and used the mechanical parts of a door lock to make a friction wheel igniter for a pistol: the wheel-lock. This "invention" idea spread to Germany when the locksmith returned there…[*]Iron Working: Hittites, 14th c. BCE. (Novice & Yuvo are thinking of bronze smelting when they say IV Millenium BCE. Note also that the Iron Age didn't begin until after 1000 BCE even though iron had been around for several centuries. Like Civ Advances, the named archeological periods are not established by the first use.)[*]Mathematics: Arabs got the decimal number system and the "zero" from India ~9th c. The invention of Algebra (by Arabs playing with the decimal system) predates the capture of Toledo, 1085, as there were texts on algebra in that library.[*]Navigation: refers to the invention of the astrolabe and the declination table, no later than 10th c. CE.[*]Theory of Gravity: Newton, published 1682 I think. Technically called "universal gravitation" as opposed to the "elemental gravitation" (Earth > Water > Air > Fire) of Aristotelian science.[*]University: As a structured system with uniform curriculum was a medieval ecclesiastical development. Originally there were three courses of study: Law, Theology, and Natural Philosophy ("science," sort of). It served more as a brake against loss of knowledge than as a prime mover of progress. That required the moveable type printing press (1495), which allowed books that cost less than a nobleman's yearly income.

If I didn't have to go to sleep I'd look up some of these dates online…

Ironclad v. Turtle: The Ironclad is a steam vessel (it comes with Steam Engine advance, duh), so Yi-sun's Turtle Ship doesn't count.

Yin: Stryfe's power loom comments should be in Ind rather than MP. Kroeze's 1800 BCE date for chariot supersedes my guess at the date of the Egyptian donkey chariots. My comment on Gudieren's tactics applies to Mech as well as to Armor.

I disagree about Astronomy. We're talking astronomy as a means of navigation here, and that is way before Copernicus.

And NoviceCEO, I really have to disagree about polytheism. The Pantheon of Gods kind of thing came about long after religion, before there was Animism represented in the game by Ceremonial Burial, which basically consisted of worshipping the spirits of the land, and maybe unnamed non-humanoid sun and moon gods.

[Atahualpa]

As for Dragoons 17th century AD is a bad guess. 16th century is a better guess Id say. I believe Francisco Coronado used some when he searched for the 7 Cities of Gold.

ATa

[Jon Miller]

Hi all,

Harel

yes, I know about the greek idea and that is where we get the word from

however that idea was a philosophical idea not a scientific and does not fit the picture (or I belive the tech tree)

the idea was not all matter was made up of the smallest division, but there was no science here just philosophy that happened to have some small truth (or actually no truth but it helped form a coherent model for a very short while)

I beleive it requires physics which I was the time when natural philophy began being a science (and became physics in the highest state)

I thought I was going to comment about something else but now I cannot rememmber it

Jon Miller