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Old March 12, 2000, 20:26   #1
MidKnight Lament
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Unconventional Warfare in Civ III
Ok, I'm going to try to start a sensible discussion here - that is, one that doesn't have people posting 'CTP sucks' by simple reflex. Hopefully anyone like that has got it out of their system by now.

One of the initial gripes people had about CTP was unconventional warfare. For some people it was just too different, and they didn't like the amount of power that was given to the units. Either that, or they found them too annoying.

For the books, I think unconventional warfare was a good edition, but I know a lot of people have argued that it should have been done better. I was hoping to spark some debate on how this could actually be done the way people want in Civ3.

Of course, another option is not to have it all, but I subscribe to the opinion that a game with an historical basis like Civ, couldn't be doing a good job if it just ignored things like Slavery. After all, it wasn't just a passing phase. Perhaps it could be done differently though. Any ideas on how? I'm looking for all those people who bagged the crap out of CTP to come in with some constructive comment here.

The concepts brought forth in regards to a religious model have somewhat diminished the need for a unit like the Cleric as it appeared in CTP. But would we still like a religious unit? And what would it do? How powerful would it be?

A top-class diplomacy model would help appease some want for Lawyers - or at least some representation of their influence in the modern age. But do we still need something else? Would the dimplomacy model cover everything we want to represent?

And what about the Corporate Branches? Any ideas on how this could be done better?

Feel free to have a go at the other unconventional warfare units that were in CTP as well. But remember that I'm hoping for constructive suggestions here, not deconstructive critiques like we've been subjected to in the past.

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Old March 12, 2000, 21:14   #2
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MidKnight Lament

i have only watched some of my friends play CtP but from the looks of it and what i have read the unconventional units look unbalanced...i also think that spy's in civ2 are unbalanced and so are probe teams in SMAC

however i do think that unconventional do have a place in a civ game

so could you give me a list of all of the unconventional units from CtP, what they did, and a short analysis of the unit? i think that would be a good starting spot...once you figure out why a unit is unbalanced then you can fix+improve it

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Old March 12, 2000, 21:44   #3
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This isn't going to be the most comprehensive list you've ever seen, and there might be a few errors, because I don't use some of these units, but here goes.

Most, if not all unit attacks have a probability of success that is affected by a few different things. Cities will become "wary" after an attack is noticed, and following attacks will have less probability of success afterwards.

Subversive Units

(Can only be seen by other subversive and terror units). Most of these cost gold. Units will live another day if their attack is successful.

Slaver

Slaves are added to one of your city's population, but you feed them less and don't pay them.

- "Enslaves" settlers
- "Capture Slave" from city by luring them away. Pop goes down by 1.
- Captures slaves if it's stacked with a military unit that is victorious in battle.

Cleric

- "Coverts" a city. City then payes tithes to your civ in gold each turn until the city can rid itself of your influence.
- "Sell Indulgences" gives you gold in return for making an enemy citier happier.
- "Soothsay" makes ememy city unhappy.

Abolitionist

- "Free Slaves" frees one slave from a slaver's city.
- Train armies in an enemy city (who is using slaves) to riot in that city.

Terror Units

(Can only be seen by other terror units).

Spy

- Spy on city 'screen' (or what's left of it in CTP)
- Steal Advance
- Plant Nuke
- Incite Revolution

Ecoterrorist

- Plants a nanovirus in an enemy city which has the possibility of spreading to other cities via trade routes. Nanovirus destroys all wonders and imrovements.
- Cause unhappiness

Infector

-Releases plague in an enemy city which has the possibility of spreading to other cities via trade routes. Plague lowers happiness.

Eco Ranger

-Destroys all man-made buildings and infrastructure. Eco Ranger is destroyed in the process. All land is put back to it's 'natural' state.

Cyber Ninja

- Same as spy, but with higer chance of success

Trade Units

(Can only be seen by other trade units and terror units).

Lawyer

- "Injuction" stops enemy city building anything on that turn. Useful when racing for wonders.
- "Sue" destroys trade units, and can 'release' a franchised city (Caused by Corporate Branch)

Televangelist

- Acts like a more powerful Cleric

Corporate Branch

- "Franchises" enemy cities. Each turn the city gives 10% of it's production to your coffers.

Subneural Ads

- Causes unhappiness


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Old March 12, 2000, 21:48   #4
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Now, having posted that, I'm not going to say I agree with them all. Eco Rangers (whilst being bloody deadly efficient) are too 'out there'. Cyber Ninjas are laughable. Subnueral Ads are a bit futuristic.

But my main concerns in regard to Uncoventional Warfare is representing:

- Slavery
- Religious Conversion
- Corporations
- (and of course, ye olde) Spy

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Old March 13, 2000, 02:16   #5
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Midknight Lament

About corporations

I have always thought there are better ways to deal with how to implement corporations into civ games.

Corporations today are the driving forces of nations' economy and some of them have even bigger trade volumes than some other nations. We can no longer ignore nor exclude them from the game and they deserve to appear in later stage of the game as a separate entities from nations as many MNEs do.

CivII made no big deal of these very existance of corporations by letting a player to control whole economy of his/her own.

CTP took little bit different approach by having a unit of "Corporate Branch" though it was interesting still I was dissatified with this simplification of corporate activities.

The key solution has to come from upgraded trade and economy system of CivIII game.

Corporations should have their own AI and act like civs.

I posted similar idea about corporations at Clash forum.
quote:

Corporations should be allowed to do many things that merchants could not.
1.Each corporation should have its own characteristics and management style just like other civs' characteristics(Expansionist~perfectionist)
2.They also should have their own factory(if they are manufacturing firms), service outlet(if they are service-oriented firms)or mine(resource-selling firms)
3.Coporations should compete each other like other civs do.
4.Corporations can conduct their own research
(Which is important for market economy civs to be tech-leading nations)
5.Corporations can brach out city by city as their business progress.
6.Corporations can be specialised in one area of business(Ford,IBM,etc)or many kind of business(Japanses keiretsu-Mitsubishi).
7.Number of corporations should be limited to reduce our CPU's burden(Some will be out of business.Some will prosper.Some will start)
8.Corporations will have thier own corporate HQ(usually in capital city of its civ which it belongs)
9.There should be a ranking of world corporations like Top 5 corporation,etc and its owning civs.
10.Two or more corporations can be combined(Merging & Annexation)
11.Corporations that have branches in many other civs will be upgraded to MNE(Multi National Enterprise)


Surely this means more burdens for our CPU and lots of work for the programmers but since we are not satisfied with current trade and economy system of the game,there will be an upgrade of this part of the game then maybe this kind of concept can be accomodated into the game(I hope so)
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Old March 13, 2000, 04:38   #6
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Youngsun

i agree with you to a point about corporations but currently the civ model would make it hard for corporate civs to exist for the following reasons

1. there is only one of a certain kind facility per city (only one temple, only one barracks ect.)
2. tile improvements have no effects unless population work them and only civs have population
3. only civs can determine what a city produces
4. resources are generic
5. only civs can control land

and those are just the problems i can think of off the tope of my head, i am sure that there are many more

to solve those problems we would have to put in some major changes like...

1. multiple facilities per city
2. once built a tile improvement automatically sends resources back to the city
or
whoever owns the tile improvements pays the workers
3. each factory/workshop/market place can produce one thing with the facilities owner determining production
4. have a couple classes of resources
5. have corporations have the ability to purpchase land or at least own the tile improvements on the land (and thereby own the production)

all of those solutions have individual problems and most importantly if you added those improvements would it take away the civ feel of the game and would it create a micromanagement hell?

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Old March 13, 2000, 07:28   #7
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Korn

You are right Korn the current game engine can not deal with things like corporations that's why we need to see major overhaul in this area.

We need to introduce "Private ownership" of city improvements or tile improvements.

Private ownership should apply to only corporations if that starts to apply to the public,it will be too complicated.

Capitalist economy should be able to have multiple existance of city improvement.

ieA)
New York: BankA(FirmA owned) Factory(FirmB owned) Supermarket(FirmC owned) BankB(FirmB owned) city hall(state owned)

Moscow: Bank(State owned) Factory(State owned) Supermarket(state owned)

New York's city improvements are fully privatised except city hall and police station. Financial giant firmA holds its ownership of BankA and newly established BankB's activities make the competition close to cut-throat!

There is no direct revenue for the US government from the New York's banks since they are owned by FirmA(BankA) and FirmB(BankB)but the government gets more revenues by collecting taxes from these firms.

New York Factory is owned by industrial giant FirmB and this factory will produce 2000 M1A3 tanks until the year 2001. The payment has been made by the defense department.
After year 2001 the government is planning to buy some fighter jets from FirmD which holds lots of advanced aerodynamics technologies. This one will be a joint project with firmH from Canada and firmJ from Mexico.

Moscow is not allowed to have more than one city improvement but all of them are fully controllable. You can build whatever you want from the Moscow factory.

Although New York enjoys higher productivity due to privatisation, the player can not force city improvements to close or move. Some firms like B and D which engage defense industry and hold important technologies for national defense are closely watched and controlled by the government under relavant legislations.

ieB)
Tokyo:FactoryA(FirmA) FactoryB(FirmB) FactoryC(FirmC)

Singapore:Port facility(State owned) Air port(State owned) Factory(FirmA)

FirmA is Japan's famous auto maker and its FactoryA now produce 200 vehicles of trade commodities each turn.

FirmA also has factory in Singapore which produce 500 consumer electronics of trade commodity each turn.

Japanese government can't control its corporations' activities. Firms have their own AI and decide what to produce themselves.
So what the player can do? He/she can collect taxes from the corporations and make a trade pact with other nations which allows easier access to their markets. "Tariff" can be a useful tool to protect your own industry.

Capitalist economy have some drawbacks. If firms reckon cityA is not lucrative place to run a business they will simply shut down their business(Usually small cities)So when a player think of privatisation of power and water supply, he/she has to think again!

ieC)
Mining firmA from CivA wants to establish and activate a goldmine in a tile which belongs to civB. Foreign minister advises the player the current relationship between two countries is satisfactory and the player gives permision to FirmA. Another player who control civB gets report from his trade minister "FirmA from civA wants to lease this tile for mining purpose for 30 turns. Shall we accapt the offer?".

Korn I rather say privatisation will reduce micromanagement problems because it is almost the same as automation of city production with smarter AI. Folks who play communist civs may have micromagement problems but that's their own wish.

I think people who play democratic civs should spent most of their time to satisfy people and only guide the whole economy generally not spending time on specific city productions,etc.

I'll be really glad if the game can adopt even small fraction of this idea because I know I'm asking too much to the programmers.


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Old March 13, 2000, 08:34   #8
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Wow. Hit me with a doozy first up. I'm of the opinion that uncoventional units were moulded to a purpose rather than the other way around. What else could they have called a unit that stole production? Corporate Branches were a trade unit, and they did steal stuff, but there wasn't much realism there. On that point, I'll agree with you there, Youngsun.

I think your idea might be leaning to far towards realism though. I mean, realism is a good thing, as long as it benefits the game. And in some of those ideas, I'm left wondering why it would make me want to play the game any more. No offense intended. Perhaps you should highlight the advantages that a relatively complex model like this would bring to the game.

There's one thing that you're most definitely right about though. The influence of corporations is far too large to be ignored in Civ3. They need to be represented somehow. Hopefully someone can come up with a concept which will be both simple and realistic. There's a lot to be said for simplicity. (says the man who brought you the relatively complex concept of prereq points )

Further suggestions also graciously welcomed...

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Old March 13, 2000, 08:54   #9
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MidKnight, I never played CTP, so this is only my thinking on what you explained before.

My point is that is a big mistake to make Units to fight Unconventional Warfare, as we make Unit to fight Conventional Warfare.

I'm finally thinking also Diplomat and Spy Units are wrong. Treaty, trade pact, espionage mission, should happen on a different scale, model and field than usual units actions.

I think Firaxis should work more on abstract level, with some panel where you can order and finance this kind of things. You can have detailed reports (as messages, newspapers, secret defense reports and the like) to add spice to the board of numbers, no units wandering on the map.

I have lot of hope into new religion, trade and diplomacy threads of the List, and I'm sure they can add lot of Unconventional warfare into the game by themself.

The private model of youngsun is (IMHO) over sophisticated, really a whole game by itself.
But you can add some Corporation effects adding them to the model who help or stop you during trade pact, war declarations and the like. I'm thinking about some advice like "the USA Corporations will be glad to finance the government in exchange of some reserved info on Other Country corporations. Would you finance the Echelon Secret Project in exchange of xxxx trade/tax points? (Warning: if other country discover your role into this you will loss trade points and diplomatic status)" - Just an example -


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Old March 13, 2000, 09:11   #10
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Adm.Naismith - That's sounding more like it.

One thing that I thought CTP did make vast improvements in was trade. This was partly due to the fact that you didn't have to trek caravans all over the map. It was all managed from one series of screens. This made it much more managable. There's no reason why corporations couldn't be represented in a similar fashion.

Oh, and about spies, I think there's room for improvement there too. I'm not sure that they should be units on a map either. I'd much rather see a "spy network" constantly trying to gather information from various civs by infiltrating their ranks. You could allocate a certain amount of funds towards maintaining this network. Perhaps there could me an overlay map on which you could place your spies. I believe this idea could add intricacies if used with a good diplomacy model and with the "internal politics" idea suggested in EC3.

And btw, don't be turned off by the fact that I used the phrase "Unconventional Warfare". I was using it as little more than a label that I thought everyone would identify with.
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Old March 13, 2000, 12:12   #11
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I think that there should be certain extra-political elements in Civ3..

Apart from Religion, Corporations (I'm not sure I like the idea though), NGOs etc.,
there could be some international terrorist organisations.. You should be allowed to negotiate with them, pay them to concentrate terrorist activities againts another country (perhaps while still being at peace - Pakistan's proxy war against India springs to mind), declare war on the terrorist organisations (Osama bin Laden, Chechnya) and other such things..
 
Old March 13, 2000, 18:29   #12
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Ok, I'm gonna expand an idea I already mentioned in another thread.
All unconventional things should be a non-units system.
that includes:

Trade, Espionage, Religion, Corps (sub division of trade), Slavery, Terrorism, and others.

I will explain my ideas, but remember, they are in no way final. I think much work needs to be made.


Trade:

Although I like the camels I think they are to be used only in the beginning or only to initiate trade. In civ2 one had no way of changing or manipulating trade after it has been initiated.

Suggestion:
You set the price per turn for a resource and discuss it with the other civ. Then each turn you get that sum. The price is higher when the client civ is further and when the client is in great need, and when you're the only one supplying the resource. You (or the client civ) can argue to change the price later, what can lead to a new agreement or a termination of the agreement.

Question: Also money? I sell money for more money like in civ2 where both sides get money? ho dumb is that? What does the client civ get?
Answer: I don't know yet. I thought about trading shields. you sell shields. It is just like civ2's capitalization where you sell shields and get money, only trade gives you a much bigger revenue. The client civ uses shields to finish a big army of tanks or something. It should be made so it will be more efficient to trade and get shields to use for the tank, than to 'buy' a tank. for instance, in buying, you need 3$ per shield, in trade you can argue about the price, usually around 2$ per shield. That means you save money when trading. And the civ that is giving the shields isn't losing because it doesn't pay money for the shileds. They are created automatically. If she would want to buy shields to finish her market, it would be again, better for her to trade for it. It's my little suggestion.

Corporations:
I thnik it should be less realistic than youngsun's idea. more like CTP in a sence that each nation is a corporation. Instead of just giving units, you can make a trade with another nation to sell them units without them getting the science for it or having to spend shields. For instance, america is selling apachees to france. not that france doesn't know how to build them, america simply has a better production system. Or maybe they have their own mudel, if the unit creation model is similar to SMAC. America simply developed a better heli. so france and canada and others will buy it from her while making their own helicopters. Then america has a monopoly in the heli's market. Until someine develops a copycat (must buy one apachee and explore it) and sell it for cheaper. This would make a more realistic trade together with shields that can be traded when it's a dry season for apachees.

I have to go now (school night) but tommorow I'll explain the models for espionage and other things I have in mind. Espionage, as trade should be a MAJOR system incorporated in the game, instead of a unit.

See ya'll in 24 hours or so.
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Old March 13, 2000, 18:40   #13
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I typed really fast and I noticed a few spelling typos. please excuse me.

PS. mudel = model. NOT nudels or something so don't you have funny ideas.
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Old March 13, 2000, 19:41   #14
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MKL, the EcoRanger isn't a stealth unit, which is a good thing since it's the single most destructive unit in the game.

Random thoughts on the others:

The Slaver is one of the easiest to use and understand, and the AI knows how to use it, as well. One very popular mod for CtP made some changes in the city garrison needed to prevent a slave revolt, but it's still effective. However, the player should be able to select the city to receive slaves, rather than have the game select, IMO.

The Abolitionist works basically like the Slaver in reverse, and the AI also uses this one effectively.

I think that the 'upgrades' of stealth units (Televangelist for Cleric, Subneural Ad for Corp. Branch, and Cyber Ninja (!) for Spy, don't really deliver enough of a boost or difference to justify them (especially the last). Just my opinion. The Televangelist does move a lot faster than the Cleric, though.

The Corporate Branch does one thing that seems very realistic to me. Against a weak AI opponent, it can turn that civilization's economy into a virtual colony. I sometimes find myself competing against the other 'major' powers to establish franchises, sort of like the European scramble for Africa.

I mention how easy they seem to be to implement, and how well the AI does in fact implement them, because I doubt that at this stage Firaxis is interested in re-creating major sections of the game just to work them in. But the better unconventional units definitely add a new dimension to the game and make it a lot more interesting.
 
Old March 13, 2000, 19:56   #15
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quote:

Originally posted by lago on 03-13-2000 06:41 PM
MKL, the EcoRanger isn't a stealth unit, which is a good thing since it's the single most destructive unit in the game.



I stand corrected. Actually, I wasn't doing them off the top my head; I was summarising the manual. And I think (again, might be wrong) it was listed under terror units in there. But you're quite correct.

lago - you're also on the mark when you say that some of the unconventional units were good. I'll not argue that some of them were pretty weak, but slavers, clerics and corporations were pretty useful. These concepts should be expanded upon. Don't let the other fanciful unconventional units give the bread-and-butter ones a bad name.

I'm particularly interested in how people foresee a "spy network" or "espionage screen" might work.

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Old March 13, 2000, 21:33   #16
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After I wrote that, it occurred to me that creating a "Park" (sounds so innocent, doesn't it) is a type of unconventional attack for the EcoRanger. It does have standard attack and defense values, I think, but they're so low you wouldn't use it that way if you have a choice.

But its Create Park attack is an act of war, and that's the distinction. That's one of the things I like about the stealths -- you can wage war without actually, well, going to war. You can do this in Civ2 by bribing cities, but there it's strictly a matter of money. If you have the cash, you'll succeed. With the stealth units, you play percentages, and there are different ways to attack and thus defend. It's realistic but also very playable.
 
Old March 13, 2000, 21:58   #17
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I think CIV3 should factor in world terrorism and also implement a national media as a improvement to a civilization. What is a war without CNN. Everyone knows that the threat of terrorism is very prevalent in a modern society.
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Old March 13, 2000, 22:40   #18
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quote:

Originally posted by lago on 03-13-2000 08:33 PM
you can wage war without actually, well, going to war.


Precisely. Got it in one. I like to stay non-military for a large proportion of the game, but that doesn't mean I don't want to screw over my enemies!

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Old March 14, 2000, 08:22   #19
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I haven't played/seen CtP, but I don't think I'd like most of the "unconventional warfare" units. You guys have some neat ideas, and I could write all night, but I think I'll try to expand on the idea of the "spy screen."

My whole concept for the "spy screen" is pretty much just a developement of current Civ II screens, so you might see a resemblence. There should be a key (F3, for example) that brings up the Intelligence Minister screen. This screen contains (besides whatever appropriate data) a short list, a long list, some slider bars, and a button.

The short list:
This list has the countries which you are currently most concerned about. You can change this list at your convenience, it's just meant to make things easier. Clicking on any of the countries takes you to that country's Intel Window. Also for convenience, the names of civs you're at war with could be displayed in red.

The long list:
This is a list of every civ you are currently aware of (assuming Civ III has more than 7 civs). This is the slightly more tedious way of getting to any given civ's Intel Window.

The slider bars:
These allow you to modify how you spend the "intel budget." I'm assuming Civ III will have another screen somewhere that determines how much you spend on intel each year. Instead of tax/science/luxury, your choices will be whatever it is that Intel people spend money on. I suggest it include training, bribe money/"compensation", salaries, propaganda, plus whatever else someone can think of.

The button:
This takes you to the counter-intelligence screen, because I couldn't think of a better way to get there. This screen tells you who you know is spying on you, and lets you try to do something about it. I haven't thought a lot about this, but somehow you should be able to decide whether to try misinformation, disinformation (I think there's a difference, but I forget what), or just make their spies "disappear." you should be able to try to mislead the other civs into thinking any of the following:

1. Your military is stronger/weaker than it really is. This could be as specific as number of units, for example.
2. Your military readiness is higher/lower than it really is.
3. You (don't) have a certain tech.
4. Your attitude toward a certain civ is worse/better than it really is.
5. You are (not) currently building/researching/developing a certain wonder/tech/prototype.
6. Your economy is stronger/weaker than it really is.
7. Lots more stuff, but this is the basic idea...

The Intel Screen:
This screen tells you everything you think you know about a certain civ, what you think that civ knows about you, and what you're doing about it. There is the "intel file" on this civ which tells you all this; you can read through everything or just the sections you're interested in (military, tech, economy, etc...). There's also a mini-map of the country showing you which cities you have spies in. You can each spy specific orders or all spies together a set of priorities, such as:

1. Move to other city/come home.
2. Collect info on military/science/economy/etc...
3. Steal technical data/blueprints
4. Incite social unrest
5. Sabatoge communications/transportation/industry/etc...
5. Assassinate leader?!?
6. Hide
7. Try to detect enemy spies

Each spy can attempt one of these things per turn. The more aggressive the option, the higher the chance of failure. Sometimes, even when they're not doing anything, a spy will simply disappear.


This is the best I can do at the moment. I hope I did a half decent job describing my idea. There will have to be a way to increase/decrease the number of spies in each country as you hire more/change you're priorities. I'd also like to incorporate this with a whole system for non-human intelligence (spy satellites, listening posts, etc...). Anyway, that's my idea for a non-unit-based spy model.
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Old March 14, 2000, 08:41   #20
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I humbly accept all the criticisms from you guys and I reckon some sacrifices of realism are needed for the sake of game play.

1.Corporations should be controlled by players.(Either under capitalism or communism)

2.Regarding the size and impact they make,only MNEs(multi national enterprise)should be allowed to appear during the game.(Manufacturing firms can be perfect examples)And there is simply no room for smaller corporations for the game.

3.Corporations should be able to produce trade commodities.(The demand of each city was produced randomly by checking the city's own supply in CivII. In that sense, each city was actually representing a corporation in CivII.)

4.Corporations should be represented by either a unit or a city improvement. I think they are more flexible than a city improvements but less flexible than field units. What about an immovable unit which can be located in city as a unit but can not move ?

This new unit can grow like an organic creature and has unique stats like S/FP/PR/PC/MC/TS with one trade commodity which it can produce.

S=Size
FP=Financial power(monetary power)
PR=Public relation(also Brand recognition)
PC=Production capacity
MC=Marketing capacity
TS=Technology status(the higher the better)

This corporation unit will fight against other civ's ones to dominate World trade.(Trade War)

Like a parasite, they will stick to one city and consume citizens' income but if the business environment in the city goes bad they can also perish. They will pay tax each turn to their civ's government which means extra revenue for their governments.

I will simulate one case scenario for this.

New York has currently IBM,Ford and Coca cola units which are all belong to American civ but two turns ago 3 new units from Japan and Germany infiltrated into the city. These NEC,Toyota and Daimler Benz units are big and powerful.

New York is big and prosperous so there is full 60 different trade commodities demand list for the city. PC,Automobile and Soft drink are definitely on the list. Since city improvement of power plant, highway and supermarket have been built the demand of PC,Automobile and Soft drink has tripled.

IBM
S=20 FP=32 PR=15 PC=35 MC=25 TS=50 PC USA
Ford
S=25 FP=22 PR=20 PC=75 MC=25 TS=32 Autos USA
Coca-cola
S=23 FP=62 PR=95 PC=25 MC=80 TS=8 Soft Drink USA
NEC
S=18 FP=25 PR=10 PC=40 MC=20 TS=55 PC Japan

I will skip the other two.(both produce Automobiles)

New York is size 40 megalopolis and has 100 demand of PC each turn. Now IBM unit can produce 35 and NEC for 40 so total 75. Still demand 25 is not satisfied so both unit will grow and there is no serious competition.

But New York's Automobile demand is 100 but Ford has 75PC, Toyota for 60PC and DB for 55PC so total 190! The supply exceeded the demand by 90! some unit have to go out of business sooner or later. Each turn they will fight to dominate market share by using their FP/PR/MC/TS power.

Coca Cola has virtual monopoly of the market in New York. Since this kind of business requires more PR than TS for its success, hard earned 95PR of Coca cola makes the firm hardly under threat from any other Soft drink manufacturers.

Each unit's management should be done by independent AI but its strategic move can be contolled by the player like other mil units.

International Trade

Civs should be allowed to trade trade commodities produced by their corporation units by setting a trade route.

Each city should have its own demand list like Railroad Tycoon which can be affected by both prosperity and pop. size.

If a Civ fails to satisfy these demands under certain percentage, the dissatisfied portion of pop. will generate unhappiness.

If your domestic corporation unit produce more than required by your civ, the surplus can be traded with other civs.

When these units are at infancy they are extremely vulnerable due to threats from bigger existing units from other civs so care has to be taken.

Corporation units can stack too through merging and annexation and this corporate alliance can be very powerful indeed.

Trade route should be made by trade pact between two civs not by the camel and it should be much easier to establish if there is no diplomatic problem. ( I have nothing against this poor animal)

Note:Employment element was not applied due to its complexity.

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 14, 2000).]
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Old March 14, 2000, 08:44   #21
MidKnight Lament
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Dienstag - This is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking should be in an intelligence screen. I can't elaborate now, because I'm going to bed to recover (I'm a bit unwell at the moment), but keep those ideas coming. It's good stuff.

- MKL
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Old March 14, 2000, 14:12   #22
The Mad Viking
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MKL (great handle, great thread)

I've given quite a bit of thought to spies lately, regarding counterintelligence. But apparently not as much thought as Dienstag! Excellent work!

I agree completely that espionage would work better as a screen. It should be difficult to establish your first spies in each civ, a little easier to spread them between cities. I agree that a percent of your budget should be allocated to "intelligence" including espionage and propaganda. I think that spies should give their reports with a confidence factor - a probability that their information is correct- although for "non-vet" spies even the confidence factor could be wrong. In general, spies should still give mostly accurate information most of the time. It would put a lot more spice into attacking a city.

Ironic that you can tell exactly what's in an enemy city half-way across the map, even without an embassy for that civ - but you can't tell whats below that catapult in the stack outside your city walls!

And guess what? Eliminating the units means that a single Mata Hari will no longer be able to conceal ten armoured divisions on a railway through open plains in the heart of heavily occupied enemy territory!
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Old March 14, 2000, 14:21   #23
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The other thought i had related to trade and production. With improved trade, you should NEVER be able to simply buy a unit or improvement. You can't buy something that hasn't been mined, logged, refined, manufactured etc. If you don't have the production capacity, you'll have to buy it from someciv who does. They would need to increase the number of shields (or reduce shield cost of units etc.) to balance it. But turning cash instantly into tanks made by ? makes no sense. This would IMHO more correctly demonstrate the importance of production. You can't buy, sell, eat or drive it, if it hasn't been produced!
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Old March 14, 2000, 14:22   #24
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Dienstag's ideas deal with something that I found mildly annoying in Civ2, namely that information from Spies is always completely accurate. It may not tell you everything, but what it does tell you is guaranteed correct. This sounds like a good way to allow you to deceive (and be deceived) and I hope Firaxis includes something like this.

Other factors, like governments and trade, would have an effect on intel. If you have lots of foreign trade or multi-national corporations (however that is implemented), your overall intelligence abilities should improve. Communist and Fundamentalist governments should be more difficult to penetrate than Democracies, etc.
 
Old March 14, 2000, 18:32   #25
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Wow, I i spent a lot of time thinking about my vision of espionage and then comes Dienstag and explains his vision, which is similar to my own but he apparently has spent much more time thinking aobut it and expanding it.

Very well done, Dienstag!

I also think we should some how encorporate Mad Viking's suggestions about veterans and non veterans.

Youngsun, your latest suggestion of corporations has captured me. i think this is the main frame of what would please me in civ 3.

P.S.
What do you people think about my idea of selling units for money, without the costumer nation being able to get science for it? I could be selling nukes to the aztecs that don't even have gravitation. And the units i give them don't make them discover nuclear power or something. Also this is done in the world for money saving. It saves money to buy apachees from the USA rather than starting your own apachee development team and production line.

Youngsun, you actually mentioned australia importing merkavas in the history book thread . I'd like to see this sort of thing in civ 3.
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Old March 14, 2000, 20:20   #26
MidKnight Lament
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Excellent ideas, all! Perhaps I should have started a few different threads.

I think an espoinage screen could be really cool in Civ3. To add to all those ideas mentioned before, I think you should be able to bribe a foreign spy to work for you. The foreign civ would still believe that they owned the spy, but they wouldn't. That spy could then gain much information from the foreign civ from you. In this way, you'd have to be wary about the spies you had. There should be some sort of rating (loyalty?) for each spy (perhaps dicatated by how much you pay them) which determines how easily they can be bribed. Would you rather have 5 very loyal spies and get relatively accurate intelligence information, or would you be happier to have 10 spies who are not as trustworthy so that you can gain information about more cities?

Should you be able to move spies from city to city as you wished? (To enable you to get the most effective information from the most important cities). Or should there be penalties for moving spies around? Would it take them a certain number of years before they were effective in a city?

The Mad Viking - Thanks I like yours too. Actually, I've probably played CTP as the Vikings more often than any other civ.

- MKL
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Old March 15, 2000, 10:21   #27
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Lot of excellent suggestions, my only dubt is some (e.g. Youngsun Corporations) are worth a whole game alone

I'm trying to imagine myself looking at every usual CIV parts of game (productions, trade pacts, diplomacy, wars, etc.) and taking care of corporation side effects, lots of intelligence decisions and manage to have some sort of life outside, at least to speak with my wife applying for the resulting divorce

Ok, just kidding, but I'm asking myself if we are not adding too much micromanagement to the game (and no, better AI help is not the answer, because the actual level of AI can't cope with this decisions IMHO).

Still, if you can judiciusly prune your models to keep them enough easy to use (as a part of a greater game), I will be happy to support them, as good as they are.

As they are now, yours idea will better fit into a "On-line, permanent CIV game" like Ultima, where every player play a role in a bigger world and none try to master everything.

Maybe that will be interseting to develope, but not with Firaxis people so reduced in number they already must delay Dino and postpone CIV III

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Old March 15, 2000, 12:48   #28
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Another harsh criticism from Admiral

OK But I think my latest suggestion was pretty close to my limit to compromise for the favour of game play(There is already too much sacrifice of realism)But I will push hard.

Model upgraded(simplified).................

1.I said "Corporation" will be a unit. Any organisation which comprises of people can be a unit(Either an infantry division or a corporation)

2.Corporation units should not have movement rate. Their battlefields should be in cities and they should leave fields to other mil. units that means they can exist only in cities.

3.The whole mechanism of corporation works SIMPLE. Corporations consume the city's resource,employ the citizen,sell their products to the client cities and pay taxes to its own government.

3.1 resource consumption
Under current system, a city can produce food,shield and trade only. The city production(food,shield and trade)is an actual representation of 1st industry and under my model,no corporations can engage this sacred duty of cities.

3.1.1 Food
Some firms can consume "Food" then turn them into "processed food".

3.1.2 Shield
Some firms can consume "Shields" then turn them into "Manufactured goods".

3.1.3 Trade
Some firms consume "Trade" then turn them into "Service".

3.2 Employing citizens
All citizens working on tiles within city radius are in 1st industry and all of them are self-employed as farmers,miners,fishers,etc. Corporations can draw this rural pop. into real city life by recruiting them as salary men/women.(let's be politically correct here )

3.3 Selling products to citizens
A city has Farmers,Miners,Fishers and Public servants basically.

3.3.1 Demand(hypothetical thus can be changed)
Farmers' Demand on Processed food is low
Farmers' Demand on Manufactured goods is low
Farmers' Demand on Service is low
Miners' Demand on Processed food is medium
Miners' Demand on Manufactured goods is medium
Miners' Demand on Service is low
P.Servants'Demand on PF is medium
P.Servants'Demand on MG is medium
P.Servants'Demand on Service is medium
(Fishers' Demand=Farmers'Demand)
Salarymen's Demand on PF is medium
Salarymen's Demand on MG is medium
Salarymen's Demand on Service is medium
Other city specialists' Demands are all high.(Entertainers & Scientists)

Farmer/Miner/Fisher-Low class
P.Servant/Salaryman-Middle class
Entertainer/Scientist-High class

3.3.2 Public servants
They are employed by you(Government)and work for all the city improvemnts(Bank,Factory,Cityhall,etc)and Salarymen are employed by corporation units. Others are all self employed.


3.4 Paying taxes
If a "Corporation unit" employs one "Salarymen" total ,that means it is size 1 corporation unit. (10 salarymen=size 10 unit)
Traditionally, A "Salaryman" produced certain amount of gold as a specialist but this time they do that as paying taxes to the government. That sounds okay as long as the salarymen works for domestic firms but if they are employed by foreign firms, half of taxes will be collected by that foreign government.

4.Unlike other mil units, Corporation units are productive units as long as your civs' 1st industry can produce enough raw materials(Food,Shilds and Trade)for them.

Still more works needed.........

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 15, 2000).]
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Old March 16, 2000, 03:57   #29
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Thanks everyone for the praise and criticism of my spy-screen proposal. It seems to have brought out many good ideas by others, such as Mad Viking's confidence factor, lago's effect of trade and government ideas, and many others. I'd be happy to try to compile these ideas into a comprehensive idea of espionage, but I've got Finals coming up (should be studying or sleeping now) and as MKL aluded to, this was a thread on "unconventional warfare."

I totally agree with The Mad Viking about not being able to "rush-buy" something. You should never be able to buy a stealth bomber squadron or the Cure For Cancer in one turn just because you're rich. This idea needs a lot of work, but it can be done...

Question for Youngsun: If the corporation is a unit, how do you produce it, and can it be killed? I don't think it would be appropriate to kill all the defenders of Seattle, only to find that it is still occupied by the Microsoft Corporation. On the offer hand, if you invade Seattle, have you rid the world of Microsoft permantently? Just asking. Everything else you've said sounds good, as long as we can avoid needless micromanagement and Adm. Naismith's wife leaving him...

Back to the topic: What about the other great CtP units? Do we like/dislike the ideas represented by them (slavery, biological warfare, etc...)? Do they have to be units instead of some other system?

Final thought: Does CtP have nukes? I haven't played it, so since no one's mentioned them I'm wondering if either CtP doesn't have nukes or are they considered conventional warfare now? Once again, just asking...

-Dienstag
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Old March 16, 2000, 04:17   #30
MidKnight Lament
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CTP does have nukes, and I believe that they are considered conventional warfare.

Do you want me to start another thread for the espionage screen?

- MKL
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