The random generator HAS to be broken

[Venger]

Originally posted by Setsuna
Please do not patronize me, the usage of that phrase was not in error.

Your perception that Venger is whining merely comes from his lack of civility. Do you really believe that his hostile temperament somehow invalidates his issues with the game?

Let's not paint with a broad brush here, I've had many a disagreement on Civ3 design with many a person, and have managed a good relationship throughout. It's only when we get the same usual suspects, such as LaRusso, GP, and their ilk, who cannot ignore a thread they don't like but like to throw pebbles and run. Rather than ever post about the actual topic, they bring their nonsense and ad hominem attacks. Well I don't cotton to prim little schoolgirl antics, if they want to play that game, I'll give them all they want.

Look back at their participation in this thread - how was it going until they started in? And did they mention ANYTHING related to the topic at hand? Jesus at least Xerxes managed to touch on the topic...

Venger

[GodSpawn]

Originally posted by Venger
I sure get sick of listening to you whine, do your panties have a little cotton liner? Cause you sure act like a simpering girl.
Venger

Oh dear oh dear. You are a misogynist, then? Using the term "girl" as an insult is a dead giveaway. It also tells me that, if you are not an immature teenage boy, you sure act like one.

But hey, if you like boys better than girls, that's your perogative. I won't berate you for that (I'm not homophobic after all). It's probably best not to insult 50% of the population in your posts, though.

[N. Machiavelli]

This is ridiculous. GP, PyroDrew....does what Venger say affect you so personally? It must strike some sort of cord with you that you feel that you must take time out of your day to belittle his comments with tripe that has nothing to do with the topic. Whether or not you think he is completely nuts is your opinion, but if you can't add to a big-boy-and-girl discussion then don't say anything at all. The vast majority of topics on these lists end up in playground sparring-matches simply because folks want to 'hear' themselves 'talk'. No one is forcing you to read these posts so if they offend your 'god-like' playing style so much, then leave us 'newbies' alone. We do not wish to hear you tell us how ignorant we are and how great you are.

Venger- Cut back on the insult replies, it just encourages them. Their like 12 year old kids, they are only doing it for attention, and if you ignore them, they'll go bug someone else.

[N. Machiavelli]

As for what the arguement is over, I'm finding that the random number genorator is apt to producing results in the extremes. For example, the majority of my war-mongering comes during the industrial age...naturally that pits calvery and cannons against riflemen. I have found conscript riflemen to be the bane of my existance. For some reason, my cannon/calvery attacks wipe out veteren and elite formations of riflemen and enemy calvery...but when it comes to attacking these pitiful conscripts, the cannons can't seem to hit them, and I lose a 14-HP army of calvery and 3 elite calvery when I attack a single conscript pikeman. The bum doesn't suffer a scratch. Ok, I think, lightning does hit people on occasion and some folks DO win the lottery, so weird odds do spring up.... so next turn I bombard the guys again and all 3 cannons seem to hit, but no damage is apparant. 3 more calvery are doomed in this attack without the conscript (now a regular) losing 1 point of damage.

Now I would expect results like this from a rifleman fortified on a size-12 city on a mountain square, but this was a lone conscript pikeman in a size-3 city, no rivers in sight, on grassland, and no walls. The third round of this 'siege' left me with 2 1-HP calvery and a rifleman guarding my 3 cannons; all the other units are in the town behind me healing. So what do I do? I atttack the now-veteren Pikeman with my rifleman. The rifleman gobbles up all 4 HP without 1 loss to himself. Weird. This is such a common occurance in my games that I have modified my combat tactics to where if one unit loses without a scratch to the enemy, I do not attack that stack again until the next round; because I know that if one fails so dramaticly, the others will do the same in most cases.

[johnnyappleseid]

Originally posted by Venger
What's uncalled for are the ad hominem attacks - I am tired of the schoolgirl rockthrowers who don't bring anything into the thread but their pantywaist comments about those of us playing and discussing the game. Note they don't actually talk about the post, simply piss and moan because their sacred ox is getting gored.

dude, your comebacks are fricking awesome. Keep up the good work -- I'm getting more out of this than just a discussion about random number generators

[TCO]

Flame war comments: Don't worry...Nicolai M. I'm tired of messing with Venger. I'd still love to see him spend a few days in boot camp. His high strung attitude and argumentativeness would quickly draw some "special attention". Would probably do him some good.

Topic comments: The answer to these questions lies in rigourous testing and in understanding the mathematics of the combat system. Both of these have been done quite well in Civ2 and I would recommend reading the Info: Combat thread in Civ2 strat and some of the current threads in Civ3 strat to understand how this is done properly. I don't trust the aenecdotal evidence much. We've had people on this board bring up results that they claimed were 1 in a million chances. Then when they were looked at by an expert were found to be 2% chance occurrences. Bottom line. You're going to have to be more scientific if you want any traction in your claims of bias in AI combat. We heard a lot of these same whines about Civ2 and heard a lot of "urban legends" about civ2 combat. Rigourous testing disproved many of these myths and "proved" a few.

It does undercut the credibility of current Civ3 combat "complainers" when they make claims about Civ2 (for instance bias towards the AI) which have been proven false.

[Venger]

Originally posted by GodSpawn
Oh dear oh dear. You are a misogynist, then? Using the term "girl" as an insult is a dead giveaway.

Are you a boy? As a boy, would you aspire to masculinity or femininity? Would you find it insulting or demeaning to be a man but thought of in terms as a woman? Clear enough for you?

It also tells me that, if you are not an immature teenage boy, you sure act like one.

Do you know their profile, something maybe picked up from online chat room stalking?

But hey, if you like boys better than girls, that's your perogative. I won't berate you for that (I'm not homophobic after all).

Well aren't you the best of a brave new world! You seem to have transgender identification issues though.

It's probably best not to insult 50% of the population in your posts, though.

And I imagine 100% of hermaphrodites...

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli

Venger- Cut back on the insult replies, it just encourages them. Their like 12 year old kids, they are only doing it for attention, and if you ignore them, they'll go bug someone else.

I hear you Mac - part of me understands and appreciates this viewpoint, but the other part of me cannot accept the "just lie back and enjoy it" argument. Sometimes I think someone must stand up and give these guys what they got coming to them. If we all do it, I think an affect may be had...

That said, I am trying to be extra careful not to incite this type of talking by going off on anyone in an ad hominem way. I've had many posts, and people like Monoriu and others and I agree to disagree, but we see each other views and act like adults. It's when the thread devolves into "whiners" and such that if the moderator won't stop it, I'll be damned if I'll sit back and suffer the slings and arrowsof outrageous fortune, or by opposing, end them...

Venger
P.S. Yes, I see you've seen the wierdness of the combat streakiness. I was further insulted last night when one of my tanks (FINALLY GOT SOME! Got oil from the British, who then declared war on me due to some MPP... but I already had the tanks queued up!)was attacked and defeated by cavalry. This was even with double hitpoints turned on as well. The apocryphal polish lance cavalry comes to life...and wins!

[Venger]

Originally posted by johnnyappleseid
dude, your comebacks are fricking awesome. Keep up the good work -- I'm getting more out of this than just a discussion about random number generators

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week, two shows nightly...try the veal...

Venger

[korn469]

Venger

part of me understands and appreciates this viewpoint, but the other part of me cannot accept the "just lie back and enjoy it" argument. Sometimes I think someone must stand up and give these guys what they got coming to them. If we all do it, I think an affect may be had

well i am probably as fanatical about nukes, M.A.D., and SE as you are about the combat system but always try to tear down the ideas and not the person

anyways i don't have a problem with tanks losing to cav if the cav attacked (6 attacking an 8) except if the cav was unhurt...but i do think that there is something very strange going on with the combat system, it just seems to quirky, but maybe i have just been really unlucky, who knows

by the way try out my blitz mod! i have tried to improve combat as best i could

[Venger]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by korn469

anyways i don't have a problem with tanks losing to cav if the cav attacked (6 attacking an 8) except if the cav was unhurt...but i do think that there is something very strange going on with the combat system, it just seems to quirky, but maybe i have just been really unlucky, who knows

I think it just happens too much (it should be really rare for undamaged cavalry to defear undamaged armor - REALLY rare). When my game is done I'll be doing a comprehensive set of changes to all combat units, unless the patch seems imminent...

by the way try out my blitz mod! i have tried to improve combat as best i could

Without going into too much detail, what does it do and what was it's goal?

Venger

[korn469]

venger if it happens too much in your opinion then change it!
either make cav weaker or make tanks stronger

my mod basically tries to improve combat throughout the game with a large emphasis on modern combat

all modern units have more mobility, air units can now do multiple actions and have higher bombard rates, armies are cheaper and more vital, naval moves much faster etc

here's the link
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=1

[GodSpawn]

Originally posted by Venger
Are you a boy? As a boy, would you aspire to masculinity or femininity? Would you find it insulting or demeaning to be a man but thought of in terms as a woman? Clear enough for you?
Venger

You so manifestly fail to understand my point that I expect it will be entirely fruitless to continue further...

But I must point out that you didn't use the term "woman" - instead preferring "whining like a simpering girl". It was clearly used in a derogatory sense - it doen't matter how much you try to weasel out of it, the facts won't change.

[Pyrodrew]

NMach - Relax. I simply agreed with GP. Why were you so personally offended by that?

Originally posted by Setsuna
Please do not patronize me, the usage of that phrase was not in error.

Poetic Justice - n. - The rewarding of virtue and the punishment of vice, often in an especially appropriate or ironic manner.

Venger's "hostile temperament" as you put it is far from being a virtue, as does his issues with the game. And your perception is clouded if you see a vice in those responding to Venger, only to have him lash out with 4th-grade insults later.

Do you really believe that his hostile temperament somehow invalidates his issues with the game?

Where did you get that? Re-read my posts or do you like making things up as you go along. Again there is a difference between whining & constructive criticism... you are showing the ability to lack the difference.

You should also probably get over the fact that some people will be angry when they unknowingly make a transaction that results in paying for an unfinished product.

Duh. Again BIG difference between making your complaints in a civil manner & filling up the board with "whines".

You might argue that poor tact and angry posts will result in lessened chances of garnering support and attention. However, Firaxis would likely be shooting themselves in the foot for ignoring such concerns just because of unfavorable presentation.

The problem with your theory is that when a post is filled with more whines than useful content & which others say is not a problem now that has wasted Firaxis time rather than attending to important issues.

Neither should the quantity of his complaints somehow lessen their importance.

Complaints can be quite trivial sometimes... as the quanity of complaints from the same person increase the quality of those complaints after a certain point will decrease. Thus a person making a complaint about 2 issues is more likely to have 2 valid issues than someone making 50 different posts... "random generator has to be broken"... just think about that for second.

Since Firaxis is still working on the game right now it is all the more crucial that any problems with the game come to light, and fast.

Exactly, and not be buried underneathe trivial complaints... a thread in a soft-spoken (or soft-written) style can quickly get buried here by those with loud voices.

If quirks, even little ones, are only found later on it runs too great a risk of being shrugged off and never addressed.

Your delusion that Venger is a game bug visionary is entertaining, but the quantity of people who disagree with him say otherwise.

Originally posted by Venger Oh good here's another off topic unsolicited comment. Hey dork, do you have any insight into the combat generator, or are you here to hang out with the other wallflowers? You unwrapped that present of overpowering ignorance early I see...

What you see is irrelevant since the back of your heel is in your way from having your foot in your mouth most of the time. As far as useful insight to thread topics look at your post in the "What would u like Fixed in civ 3?" thread & you'll understand your hypocrisy better.

Another fanboy who can't ignore threads or topics without a snide feckless comment not about the topic, but about the posters...

Your "dorky" threads are taking up have of page 1 simply due to your arrogance & lack of knowledge. You didn't write the combat generator, don't have the programming to the combat generator, & yet simply because a few battles don't go your way you claim it is broken. Sounds like just a sore loser with a BIG mouth. You have my pity. I don't know how many "1 star threads" you are after, but the bug is not with the program... it is with you. I'm still up with your offer you made in an earlier thread stating, "maybe I should leave." You can leave anytime freak... anytime.

Regarding the random generator - it's fine. As several have stated here. Now accept your loss like a man, instead of whining like a... 'simpering girl'.

[Special_Olympic]

Yes, the generator is pure crap. I get absolutely ridiculous results all the time. Elite Knights losing to regular spearmen without inflicting damage, etc. Happens constantly and totally sucks.

[Excelsior]

Yes, the generator is pure crap.

Did anyone see my thread about testing to see whether the random number generator is broken? We could see whether or not this is the case.

[Setsuna]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew


Poetic Justice - n. - The rewarding of virtue and the punishment of vice, often in an especially appropriate or ironic manner.

Venger's "hostile temperament" as you put it is far from being a virtue, as does his issues with the game. And your perception is clouded if you see a vice in those responding to Venger.

You left out the irony part. Whether we're speaking of just Venger or the "factions" as a whole, the original statement still applies correctly. Your bias prevents you from giving credence to this fact. You just haven't thought it through.

Where did you get that? Re-read my posts or do you like making things up as you go along. Again there is a difference between whining & constructive criticism... you are showing the ability to lack the difference.

I'm sorry, I thought we were on the same level here. Never mind.

It is your opinion that Venger is whining. If Venger merely offered complaint after complaint with no suggestions you might have a point, but that is not the case.

Duh. Again BIG difference between making your complaints in a civil manner & filling up the board with "whines".

See above.

The problem with your theory is that when a post is filled with more whines than useful content & which others say is not a problem now that has wasted Firaxis time rather than attending to important issues.

"Others" being the minority position which you're siding with. Point invalidated.

Complaints can be quite trivial sometimes... as the quanity of complaints from the same person increase the quality of those complaints after a certain point will decrease. Thus a person making a complaint about 2 issues is more likely to have 2 valid issues than someone making 50 different posts... "random generator has to be broken"... just think about that for second.

What other issues with the game are trivial to you? So if the game is filled with bugs everyone should find two bugs and then turn a blind eye to the rest?

Exactly, and not be buried underneathe trivial complaints... a thread in a soft-spoken (or soft-written) style can quickly get buried here by those with loud voices.

Firaxis is already aware of the major issues with the game (In other words, the few things that you're willing to admit are wrong with it. ) Your notion that more pressing issues with the game will somehow be drowned in a cacophony of "whining" is unfounded.

Your delusion that Venger is a game bug visionary is entertaining, but the quantity of people who disagree with him say otherwise.

Now who's putting words into whose mouth? As for numbers, for what it's worth the polls side with Venger, not you.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Setsuna
You left out the irony part. Whether we're speaking of just Venger or the "factions" as a whole, the original statement still applies correctly. Your bias prevents you from giving credence to this fact. You just haven't thought it through.

There is more to poetic justice than irony & that is the part I explained. It would been correct to say that being unable to download the patch is ironic, but it is not "poetic justice" due to the elements of virtue & vice required.

It is your opinion that Venger is whining. If Venger merely offered complaint after complaint with no suggestions you might have a point, but that is not the case.

I see no suggestion by him here & his post in "What would u like Fixed in civ 3?" thread also had no suggestions. You need to look at more of his threads.

"Others" being the minority position which you're siding with. Point invalidated.

The minority is not always wrong & all the people posting doesn't represent everyone who is playing (much less part of Apolyton). It is more important to validate & prove the point Venger made... others should not have to prove the generator is not broken simply because those who have bad 'dice rolls' post here. Burden of proof lies on those who make the accusation.

What other issues with the game are trivial to you? So if the game is filled with bugs everyone should find two bugs and then turn a blind eye to the rest?

Re-read my posts, I didn't say that.

Firaxis is already aware of the major issues with the game (In other words, the few things that you're willing to admit are wrong with it. )

I didn't even state what I felt was wrong with it. How would you know they are few? Your points are based on plenty of assumptions I see.

Your notion that more pressing issues with the game will somehow be drowned in a cacophony of "whining" is unfounded.

The idea that they would not be drowned out is unfounded since it is highly unlikely Firaxis reads every post. I've seen some great 1 post threads get buried simply because they are too long... Venger's multi-thread shotgun approach is effective for responses, I'll give him that.

Now who's putting words into whose mouth?

You're still up on me by 1 or 2 since your last post now. I'm trying to catch up.

As for numbers, for what it's worth the polls side with Venger, not you.

There is NO poll... only a FEW posts here which is not a valid sample size. A true Apolyton poll would be better... even tho it would be somewhat bias since it doesn't include those who don't visit this forum. More importantly being in the minority (*especially* in a Venger thread) is irrelevant to whether one is right or wrong. Again Venger's claim is just a claim... there is no proof.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

Venger's "hostile temperament"
responding to Venger,
that Venger is

Obsess much? You sound like Jan Brady...Marcia Marcia Marcia!

Your "dorky" threads are taking up have of page 1 simply due to your arrogance & lack of knowledge.

Please feel free to skip them, you doubtless don't have the intellectual depth to participate in them in any meaningful manner, so do us all a favor and ignore them. Don't go away mad, just go away...

You didn't write the combat generator, don't have the programming to the combat generator, & yet simply because a few battles don't go your way you claim it is broken.

Few battles? I've had, I estimate, over 800 battles in my current game. I am looking to see if the streakiness I am seeing is also seen by others. Guess what, it is. I'd be surpised if you actually owned or played the game, you seem to want to talk about me more than the actual forum topic...

Sounds like just a sore loser with a BIG mouth. You have my pity. I don't know how many "1 star threads" you are after

Who cares about star thread ratings? Does ANYONE look at that? If you do, and it's my thread, please SKIP IT...

but the bug is not with the program... it is with you.

You can't keep the fanboy in you down for long can you...

I'm still up with your offer you made in an earlier thread stating, "maybe I should leave." You can leave anytime freak... anytime.

What thread was that? Here's an offer in this thread: piss off. Let's see if you keep coming back to this thread though, like a dog to it's own vomit, because you cannot help but be a persnickity child who enjoys the conversational equivalent of peeing in the community pool.

Regarding the random generator - it's fine. As several have stated here.

You cannot discern between a statement of fact and a statement as fact. You stating it is fine carries not one whit of gravity. Nobody here has any knowledge of the inner workings of the generator - we are all simply speculating. Some people seem to have experienced enough to decide it's behaving in a way inconsistent with design, and may not be correct.

Over on the SP:WAW forum, people were posting over and over that something was wrong with tank assualt percentages, but no, came the lifeless SP groupies, it was just us. Until they finally said, oh yeah, we found a bug that resulted in factorial errors in result.

Now accept your loss like a man, instead of whining like a... 'simpering girl'.

Loss? Is that what you get from these threads, winning and losing? Pretty pathetic...

Venger

[Kc7mxo]

heh. this thread is about as dead as my two indian elephants, killed by horsemen! two veterans lost to two regulars in a row!

yipee! i love this game! <- Sarcasm!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
heh. this thread is about as dead as my two indian elephants, killed by horsemen! two veterans lost to two regulars in a row!

yipee! i love this game! <- Sarcasm!

Why are you sad about horsies killing elephants? This for sure, is a conceivable result.

[Pyrodrew]

Originally posted by Venger
Obsess much? You sound like Jan Brady...Marcia Marcia Marcia!

Looking for others to join your Obsession Club again I see. I must decline. I simply responded to Setsuna's post.

Please feel free to skip them, you doubtless don't have the intellectual depth to participate in them in any meaningful manner, so do us all a favor and ignore them. Don't go away mad, just go away...

I see you have no originality or tact as this was simply a "no you go away" response... disappointing. As others have pointed out you have a "teenage boy" mentality... not intellectual depth.

Few battles? I've had, I estimate, over 800 battles in my current game. I am looking to see if the streakiness I am seeing is also seen by others. Guess what, it is.

Of course you would estimate over 800... you're Venger & everything seems to be an extreme to you. People have been posting losing odd battles for a long time. This post is nothing new. Difference is instead of claiming it's a bad combat system or flawed combat program, you claim that it is specifically the Random Number Generator... without any proof.

I'd be surpised if you actually owned or played the game, you seem to want to talk about me more than the actual forum topic...

The majority of my posts show otherwise. I simply agreed with GP here... you freaked out about it... decided to make a scene... here we are.

Who cares about star thread ratings? Does ANYONE look at that? If you do, and it's my thread, please SKIP IT...

I often do, this 1 for some reason scored a 3. And if people are voting... people obviously care.

You can't keep the fanboy in you down for long can you...

You're quite the prima donna aren't you.

What thread was that? Here's an offer in this thread: piss off.

This is more of that intellectual depth of yours right?

Loss? Is that what you get from these threads, winning and losing? Pretty pathetic...

Loss as in the battle(s) you lost which led you to start this thread. I was hoping at the very least you would comprehend that.

Nobody here has any knowledge of the inner workings of the generator - we are all simply speculating. Some people seem to have experienced enough to decide it's behaving in a way inconsistent with design, and may not be correct. Over on the SP:WAW forum, people were posting over and over that something was wrong with tank assualt percentages, but no, came the lifeless SP groupies, it was just us. Until they finally said, oh yeah, we found a bug that resulted in factorial errors in result.

Again, I must agree with GP here... GP:"You're going to have to be more scientific if you want any traction in your claims of bias in AI combat." Claiming the combat system is flawed is one thing... claiming it is the random number generator without proof is a more just a red herring.

Let's see if you keep coming back to this thread though, like a dog to it's own vomit, because you cannot help but be a persnickity child who enjoys the conversational equivalent of peeing in the community pool.

If you gave more intellectual responses rather than "teenage boy" insults you wouldn't have this... or with LaRusse, etc. Thus, I suspect you thirst for "pee in the community pool". Again I simply agreed with GP, ignore me or respond with tact and I'll leave this thread. *Offers olive branch*

[Venger]

Hint: When offering an olive branch, try to do it before posting inflammatory material. Piling on and then wanting to shake on it isn't diplomacy...

For what it's worth, the reason we are posting this here is that we've seen results that seem to indicate a problem. If someone has the wherewithall to conduct an open study, they can do it. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do one, but alot of people did wonderful testing on the Civ2 engine, and we got to the point where we knew it inside and out.

Now Civ3 uses a random number string generator - the mechanics of which are a mystery to all. Until we know more about how it works, it will leave us with only speculation and anecdotal evidence based on the only samples we have - our games.

Venger

Pyrodrew, either contribute to this thread or leave. I am sick an tired of your long posts that do nothing, but try to demean other members of this board. If you ask me you need to get a life and stop worrying about what other people are doing. I for one think Venger has a point about the combat system. You have made the point that you don't agree with anyone in this thread, we all know that by now. Stop trying to one up Venger or whoever else tickles your fancy. If you ask me Venger posts with much more intelligence than you.

Back to the topic of this thread,

I have not done any analysis other than observing during gameplay in the few games I have played. The game has serious problems with combat especially with modern units versus middle age units. It is not just people on this board seeing this problem either. The recent review in PC Gamer mentioned the unit imbalance. The reviewer basically said that his tanks were constantly being killed by Knights and he hoped that this issue would be addressed in a future patch. In every strategy game I have played the modern units always have a big advantage over older units (that's why you spend all your resources to advance up the tech tree). In Civ 3 the advantage is barely noticeable. In old civ (1 & 2) victory through conquest was always my favorite way of playing. That's what I liked about the game. The way Civ3 plays currently takes a lot of the fun out of military conquest. I will not play again till the patch comes out and if this issue is not resolved I don't think I will be playing Civ 3 much longer. This game was definitely rushed and I would have preferred waiting till next year or however long it took to have the game play right.

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by number6
I have not done any analysis other than observing during gameplay in the few games I have played. The game has serious problems with combat especially with modern units versus middle age units.

From my thread on this topic:

I think the problem is with the small number of hitpoints. It allows relatively short streaks of 2 or 3 in a row to be decisive. As it stands, with two three hitpoint warriors, the odds of the battle ending with one side completely undamaged is 25%! That's a lot! By comparison, in Civ2, the odds of such a thing occuring, with Civ3's 10% defense bonus, was slightly over 0.2%.

I believe this is also what causes a lot of the tank vs. pikeman angst. Assuming 3HP units, a pikeman fortified inside a metropolis on grassland has a fairly reasonable 16.5% chance of victory. With 10 HP units, this drops to 3.3%.

I would recomend increasing the hitpoints for each experience level using the editor if you find irrational battle outcomes to be a problem.

[Pyrodrew]

Well thanks Number6 for curtailing this thread backwards instead of on the topic. Re-read my posts, I NEVER said I didn't agree with "anyone in this thread" - you're lies will get you no where. If you read our last 2 prior posts Venger & I wrote, things were solved, but you had to join in on a "me too" notion. Bottomline - Shut up about it, it's over.

*Attempting to exit*

[Hunter Hutchins]

I think I was using horsemen to attack fortified archers...it was a decent run. I started using legionaries, wanting mainly to start a golden age rather than use legions, but I attacked these same fortified archers, and a warrior or two. I think I lost about 10 times in a row (new record for me) before getting that golden age.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

*Attempting to exit*

Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

*This does not need a resonse, it's simply a goodbye.*

[shak_unsw]

So you guys are saying that once I reload, outcomes become locked?? That probably explains my problem. I saved and then tried to take over a few cities using propaganda. I took over a few cities till I found a city that couldn't be subverted. I reloaded and tried to take the cities that I could previously but noone will come over. And I haven't been able to take a city over in that manner since... Has anyone else had this problem???