Thread Tools
Old March 3, 2000, 22:55   #1
Matthew
Prince
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Posts: 724
Save the camel !!!!
The camel isn't part of civ, THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!! There is a reason CtP , and even SMAC don't stack up to CIV 2. tHEY HAVE NO CAMELS!!! Just some pathetic little excuse for real trade that involves no real units, and doesn't involve boats or roads. Those who gripe about Camels are likely those who aren't very nice to Camels, and don't know how to treat them right, and therefore have never gotten a 700 gold trade bonus from one.
Sure, the current model is a bit tedious. As one who often builds far more camels than any other kind of ground unit, and who builds huge navies just to move them around, I should know. But the system can be fixed. There's no call for intentional Camelid genocide here. An improved (ie, reliable) go to function would help, as well as a way to designate a destination city for the camel so you could just look at the screen to see where it is supposed to go rather than having to go to the supply and demand list every time to figure out where you are taking him would be very helpful. In fact, there are many ways to make each and every camel a better, happier camel.
Without Camels seas are little more than something to transport settlers and armies over, and a navy, afterall the land is settled, is good for little else but warfare.


So fix the camel, yes, but don't kill the camel,

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!!
Matthew is offline  
Old March 3, 2000, 23:22   #2
The diplomat
King
 
The diplomat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
That was a funny post !!
Well, I am sure that you probably did not mean that way. The truth is I agree with you completely. The camel is an example of the kind of units that gave civ its charm. And there are ways to make trade easier and less tedious and keep the camel. For example, when you sign a trade agreement in diplomacy with another civ for say 10 tons of stone per turn for 60 gold per turn, the computer could automate the trade unit (ie the camel), automatically moving it to and fro its destination, taking the export to its destination and bringing the gold back. The player would just make the trade agreements and watch the camel do the rest.

So put my signature on the petition.
Let's save the camel!


------------------
No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
The diplomat is offline  
Old March 4, 2000, 00:32   #3
Slingshot
Prince
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 436
You know, I never thought of it that way...

Thanks for the new perspective!

(Does anyone know if trade units were present in SMAC? I am asking because I think that SMAC is going to heavily influence Civ III).
Slingshot is offline  
Old March 4, 2000, 02:40   #4
korn469
Emperor
 
korn469's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In the army
Posts: 3,375
there are no trade units in SMAC, instead when u have a treaty with a faction you set up a trade route...a treade route is created like this:

your energy producing cities organized from greatest to least matched up with the faction you have a treaty or pact with organized by energy production from greatest to least

so the city that produces the most energy will be matched to their number one energy producing city...then the #2, and so on

each turn you get an amount of energy from these trade routes depending on your commerce rate and the amount of energy the cities produce

korn469
korn469 is offline  
Old March 4, 2000, 02:42   #5
korn469
Emperor
 
korn469's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In the army
Posts: 3,375
oh yeah and instead of fix the camel don't kill the camel how does this sound

fix don't nix the camel?

korn469
korn469 is offline  
Old March 4, 2000, 19:23   #6
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
I just woke up my baby laughing so hard as I read Matthew's post. I haven't played AC or CtP, but korn469's description sounds less than appealing. I have had some bad luck with forgetting what a Camel was carrying and what city I meant it to goto, with the result that I made trade routes with the wrong cities. To have better Camel (and truck) control would help me a lot.
But no mistake! I also love my trucks. I got this big grin on my face the first time I heard my trade advisor say "we're Rich, Rich, Rich!!
Father Beast is offline  
Old March 4, 2000, 20:56   #7
korn469
Emperor
 
korn469's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In the army
Posts: 3,375
the good points about the SMAC system are

1. it automatic
2. it's simple+quick, no micromanagement involved
3. you get enough money so that it is worthwhile
4. it encourages peace
5. it is benefical to both side (though one side can definantly rack up alot more trade)

the bad points are

1. no commodities
2. over simplifies trade
3. not important enough

though i think SMAC's trade system is a much better system than civ2 i do agree that it needs lots of work, if a civ2/SMAC trade hybrid could be made then that would be something to look forward to in civ3

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited March 04, 2000).]
korn469 is offline  
Old March 5, 2000, 06:22   #8
MidKnight Lament
King
 
MidKnight Lament's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,235
Hey, CTP trade was good! It may not have had camels (the travesty!...I know), but it was good. All it need was good diplomatic options to go with it.
MidKnight Lament is offline  
Old March 5, 2000, 14:07   #9
pauli
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: herndon, va, usa
Posts: 436
well, the ctp traded needed that, but also a trade advisor who didn't tell you to send imaginary trade goods to other cities, and wasn't so set on getting you to buy stuff from your mortal enemies...

the camels were fun. however, i'm thinking that they should be automated, so that the only way for the player to control them is through diplomatic methods (trade embargos, the usual). so, you would just watch the little camels and trucks wandering from city to city automatically. of course, there would need to be camoflaged camels (camelflage? ) for smugling...

for an added touch of humor and immersion, perhaps various continents (or at least latitudes) could have different trade beasts... camels, llamas, mules, um... ostriches?

maybe the camels (and such) would chart trade routes that balance speed with defensive units and fortifications - they might take a detour through a friendly civ (or along a chain of forts of your own), rather than go unprotected through a long, long desert. gotta avoid those nasty barbarians.

------------------
it's just my opinion. can you dig it?
pauli is offline  
Old March 5, 2000, 19:18   #10
MidKnight Lament
King
 
MidKnight Lament's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,235
I'll certainly agree with Pauli on being able to set the route yourself. The fastest way, isn't always the best way. Particularly if it's dangerous territory. I like trade, but I hate having to rebuild destroyed caravans!

[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 05, 2000).]
MidKnight Lament is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 03:10   #11
Dienstag
Warlord
 
Dienstag's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Brea, CA, USA
Posts: 243
The "Camel: Fix It or Nix It?" question is a hard one for me. I think there's a lot of fixing to be done, and I'm not sure when the fixings done if there will be a camel left.


Some of my thoughts:
-I don't like the SMAC system.

-There really needs to be a trade UNIT that can be KILLED. Otherwise, naval blockades are pretty much useless.


Some problems with Camels:
-Trade routes should not be well nigh unto eternal. Even when I conquer a city my enemies keep trading with it.

-Camels should not take 1000 years to walk across the continent (or 500 years to sail around the world). This is a really good way to discourage trade.

-Complex commodity system, plus neccessity of remembering which camel is going to which city for the couple hundred years it takes to get there, equals one-heck-of-an-annoying-trade-system.

I guess I'll vote to save the camels, but they better be some kind of super-camels or something in Civ III.
Dienstag is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 09:42   #12
pauli
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: herndon, va, usa
Posts: 436
the hard part is balancing camel speed with restricting them to their purpose: trade. see, i agree that they should move faster, but if the speed is kicked up too high, then camels become uberexplorers. here's my idea:

camels should have a vision range of 1 for detecting units, but 0 for detecting terrain. that way, you can explore with them, but it won't be very efficient. also, on unexplored terrain (as long as it is lacking roads), they can only move one square per turn. however, to balance this, on already explored terrain they should have a speed of 3 or 4. that way, you could send them cruising across a continent that you've already explored, without them being abused. it's worth noting that if they worked this way, then coupled with a fast moving military unit, you can blaze a new trail between, say, two coasts of an otherwise dark continent.

also, i see a need for two types of camels: automated, private sector camels (at least, under governments that allow a private sector) that are out of direct control, and player controlled camels, that do what you tell them too. while the latter would allow for much safer routes (through mountain passes and desert wastes, rather than through that hostile empire you just met and accidentally declared war on), they would be inherently less efficient than privately owned camels. after all, a merchant who is risking his life on every journey will work somewhat harder than the guy who has an unassailable government job (no offense to anyone who might otherwise be offended).

i'm thinking that if trade is going to affect diplomacy (and vice versa), then private sector trading would add an interesting twist.

oh yeah... the camo black market camels count as private sector, but you have no control over them short of stationing military units and spies on every trade route to detect and incarcerate them (if you choose to do so).

what do you think?
pauli is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 09:52   #13
pauli
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: herndon, va, usa
Posts: 436
a couple other things:

MidKnight Lament, my idea isn't for direct control over automated trade routes, but rather the ability to "influence" them. roads, guarded routes, roadblocks (would have to be added to military units as an ability), and overall travel distance would figure into how the ai chooses to route the routes, so to speak. maybe its preferences would be derived from se choices (ie, whether or not to take risks)...

Dienstag, perhaps there should be a little window somewhere on the interface where you can attach notes to specific units? ie, you select a camel, and the text you entered earlier saying "en route from philadelphia to karakorum" pops up. might solve a common gripe


[This message has been edited by pauli (edited March 06, 2000).]
pauli is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 11:12   #14
supremus
Chieftain
 
supremus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 61
Hey Matthew, this one was really funny. And very interesting. I like the Camel too, and the trucks. But we must addmit that Camels and Trucks in spite of being very appealing are also some boring in Civ 2. I think we should use in Civ III a SMAC oriented model, but with the Civ 2 approach, i.e. to use units (Camels, trucks, cargo ships and planes) to make real routes. It's a difficult task to balance micro-management required by units, with macro trade approach like in SMAC, but that's what they should try. :-)
supremus is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 12:56   #15
Harel
Prince
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Ramat Hasharon, Israel
Posts: 326
To continue Pauli post, maybe every beast of burden will have it's own special attribute?
Camels will have extra trade points, Llama will have a ranged attack ( spitting bonus ), Horses could be faster.
ostriches could be your "super-trader" with good defence and attack levels. For everyone knows, where the trading clans of the Ostriches come to town, none can stand in thier way.
Harel is offline  
Old March 6, 2000, 22:15   #16
Sirotnikov
DiplomacyApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization III Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Sirotnikov's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,138
I also think that trade should be established with units of some sort and being something like CTP. Because it should be possible to block trade routs and to bribe a camel once in a while. Only one of many that go there each year. I can also attack it. But it wouldn't hurt the actual route. Only I will get the trade benefit for that year. and next year there'll be another automated camel.

Also, attcking a trade route shouldn't be considered such a big atrocity. I mean, if I do it in the middle of the desert, how can anyone find out it was me and not some barbarian horde? Especially it shouldn't affect relations with countries that haven't signed a peace agreement. Cool! I could use it as a means of extorsion (spelling?) I want a nation to do something, so I say: Do so and so or no soup for you!! oh.. sorry, I mean no camels. Watching too much Seinfeld.
Sirotnikov is offline  
Old March 9, 2000, 15:42   #17
Krusty
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Just get rid of the Trade Routes Pirating idea. In CTP otherwise friendly civs were destroying all my trade routes
 
Old March 9, 2000, 19:17   #18
MidKnight Lament
King
 
MidKnight Lament's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,235
It's not so much when friendly civs pirate my trade routes that I found annoying. It was more that they weren't accountable for it. Same goes with repetitive tresspassing when they've got no reason to.

At the moment I'm playing a game where every five turns a ship lands a settler on my continent. If I've told them three times already and they continue to tresspass, I should be able to say, "If you tresspass again, I'll consider it an act of war". And if they do it again, I should lose none of my reputation for whoopin' their lying @rse!

Pirating should be considered more serious however. You should be able to warn them as soon as you know they're doing it.

Taking this in mind, there should be a way that you can pirate trade routes without the civ knowing who did it sometimes. For example, if their trade route crosses vast expanses of ocean, and you pirate it in the middle of nowhere, how are they going to know who did it? You've killed all the traders on the ship. Perhaps you should be able to do this if you're out of viewing range of their cities and units. Or if they're on good terms with another civ, perhaps that other civ could bust you if you pirate the route in front of them. Pirating just isn't as fun if they can pin it on you every time. That's why Privateers in Colonization was so damn fun!

Of course, most of this is the proposed diplomacy model already, but seeing as you brought it up, i thought I'd mention it.
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 09, 2000).]
MidKnight Lament is offline  
Old March 10, 2000, 08:07   #19
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
I really like the idea of automated camels. It keeps the camel going to and fro after I've established the trade route, and it provides incentive to me to patrol the trade route and keep barbarians, barbaric players off it. It would also end the Eternal Route you don't see that stays intact no matter what. I imagine being able to harrass my opponents by messing with their camels, or just letting them pass during cease fire agreements (dialogue box: caravan from karakorum to philadelphia. allow to pass? yes/no)
Father Beast is offline  
Old March 22, 2000, 17:33   #20
Matthew
Prince
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Posts: 724
SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!
Matthew is offline  
Old March 22, 2000, 18:23   #21
raingoon
Prince
 
raingoon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 500
I whole-heartedly agree! SAVE JOE! Forget that it takes 1000 years or whatever to move a caravan, btw, because that's just an abstraction. What I love is moving my camel herds to all points of the map, and I think if I want to have a trade-game of civ, I should be able to. There should be:

1. Trade units that can be automated to move and moved manually at player's discretion.

2. Terrain designed for interesting trade routes. I want a new terrain tile -- the MOUNTAIN PASS, which becomes of strategic importance, espec. during trade, as this is the only tile that will admit most land units through mountains until the latter part of the game.

3. Resources that are vital for building military units, though scarce enough enough on the map to reinvigorate the trade model. THIS IS A MUST! An ore freighter on its way across the Pacific will not get confused or easily lost by you if you depend on trading that ore for the oil you need to defeat the Zulus.

4. The Economic Victory Map -- which shows which economies dominate the world, thus it does not exactly resemble the political map. This adds a new layer of strategy to give Matthew even more fun orchetrating his camel herds all over the globe.

But above all, ALL THIS depends on having living, breathing CAMELS that can be moved by the player and squished by your opponents. So I echo Matthew's call to arms -- SAVE JOE!!!
raingoon is offline  
Old March 23, 2000, 15:57   #22
Stuff2
Warlord
 
Local Time: 00:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 274
Get rid of the camels!

Get rid of all these stupid AI units randomly wandering around the screen!

As few units as possible!

Can't there be other ways to simulate warfare and trade?
Stuff2 is offline  
Old March 23, 2000, 21:45   #23
War4ever
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
War4ever's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: I live amongst the Red Sox Nation
Posts: 7,969
no camels are important to civ..... camels represent the ancient or third world trade..... perhaps an icon in between camels and freight would be a good idea.

Long live the camel..... and a better goto command for those camels and nomads
War4ever is offline  
Old March 25, 2000, 21:17   #24
don Don
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Yeah, who needs units anyway? When we declare war just play "rock, paper, scissors."
 
Old March 26, 2000, 01:34   #25
OrangeSfwr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I have an idea regarding the Camel issue...

Why not say that camels and trucks can only move on Road/RR. That way they can only explore terrain that you know of, or terrain that someone has explored (It can't have road unless someone's been there) Sound good? I thought so. Then give them a movement rate of 5? I think the road movement rate should be raised to 5 to but that's a different thread I guess. But the camel must make a comeback, that we all agree on. I think once flight is discovered there should be a flying trader as well. The only problem with that would be that it would have to have a large number of moves in order to go from city to city and back home again. (I'm against the whole theory of having a plane lingering in the air for a turn or two - the bomber - so I didn't suggest that option for the trading planes). Also, someone mentioned how you can never remember where it's going or what's on it. Why not have a list of supply and demand with the trade unit at all times? I think that would eliminate the problem that we have all faced at one time or another...WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS DAMN CAMEL!!!

Open to suggestions....

------------------
~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~
 
Old March 26, 2000, 22:05   #26
MidKnight Lament
King
 
MidKnight Lament's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:16
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,235
quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 03-26-2000 12:34 AM
But the camel must make a comeback, that we all agree on.


No, we don't all agree on keeping camels. Moving them all over the Civ2 map was a hassle and didn't encourage me to trade at all. CTP's trade screen was much better, and easier to organise. It gave just as much depth, but in a simpler fashion.

- MKL
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited March 26, 2000).]
MidKnight Lament is offline  
Old March 29, 2000, 09:22   #27
pauli
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: herndon, va, usa
Posts: 436
hence the idea for automatic, ai controlled camels, but also some specific player controlled ones.

as for camels only being allowed on roads... that only really works if you disregard the ancient, unpaved traderoutes throughout the world. if roads are created automatically, then things might work better. however, i doubt that would be overly popular
pauli is offline  
Old March 29, 2000, 14:48   #28
raingoon
Prince
 
raingoon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 500
Caravans were not on roads at all in much of ancient times -- they paved the way, so to speak, for roads that followed. So making roads a prerequisite won't work at all.

There's a good movie about this very subject (believe it or not) called "The Caravan" that is out. And it's all about a Nepalese village's salt caravan trying to find a faster route through the mountains.
raingoon is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:16.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team