***TECH TREE***: Wonders of the Ancient World

[yin26]

We have done an outstanding job getting dates and information on a wealth of topics! But my goal is for this to be actually used by Firaxis, and to do that, we need to really nail down dates and sources as best we can. I'm starting us on Wonders of the Ancient World and will start the next group once we all agree on these.

Please provide a quote from your source, like this:

quote: Rhodes, Colossus of: "Colossal statue of the sun god Helios that stood in the ancient Greek city of Rhodes and was one of the Seven Wonders of the World. ...."--Yin (http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...5066+1,00.html )

If we do this, Firaxis will have a very easy time trusting our findings and putting them directly in the game! Also, with source linked, we can directly look at the facts ourselves. So, let's confirm the following:

Wonders of the Ancient World

• Colossus:
  
  292-280BC--S. Kroeze
  
  Rhodes, Colossus of: "Colossal statue of the sun god Helios that stood in the ancient Greek city of Rhodes and was one of the Seven Wonders of the World. The sculptor Chares of Lyndus (another city on the island) created the statue, which commemorated the raising of Demetrius I Poliorcetes' long siege (305 BC) of Rhodes. Made of bronze and reinforced with iron, it was weighted with stones. The Colossus was said to be 70 cubits (105 feet [32 metres]) high and stood beside Mandrákion harbour, perhaps shielding its eyes with one hand, as a representation in a relief suggests. It is technically impossible that the statue could have straddled the harbour entrance, and the popular belief that it did so dates only from the Middle Ages. The statue, which took 12 years to build (c. 294-282 BC), was toppled by an earthquake about 225/226 BC. The fallen Colossus was left in place until AD 654, when Arabian forces raided Rhodes and had the statue broken up and the bronze sold for scrap. Supposedly, the fragments totaled more than 900 camel loads."--Yin (http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...5066+1,00.html )
  
• Great Library:
  
  Became the intellectual centre of the Hellenistic world under Ptolemy II (283-247BC)--S. Kroeze
  
  Ptolemies: The large empire Alexander had conquered was too big for one successor. One general was entrusted with Macedonia another Thrace and a third Syria. One of Alexander's favorite generals Ptolemy was made governor of Egypt. The esteem was mutual as can be seen in Ptolemy's having Alexander's body brought for burial to Egypt where it was permanently interred at the city Alexander had founded and named after himself. Alexandria was the city Ptolemy made his capital. There he founded a museum and started collecting books for a library. For more than 350 years the Ptolemies ruled Egypt. Following the general was his son Ptolemy Philadelpus who made the library the best in the world. The books made of papyrus were in Greek or Latin. Ptolemy Philadelphus had the Jewish Bible translated into Greek for his library. He is also known for re-opening a canal between the Red Sea and the Nile providing access between the Atlantic and the Indian Ocean which was important for the wheat trade and enabled Alexandria to become the richest city in the world. Under the Ptolemies learning was encouraged. Its students first taught that the earth is round and another determined almost the exact diameter of the earth. The most famous Ptolemy was Cleopatra."--Yin( http://ancienthistory.about.com/educ...lptolemies.htm )
  
  Ptolemy: fl. AD 127, -145, Alexandria--Yin( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...3344+1,00.html )
  
• The Great Wall:
  
  Linked together by Ch'in Shih Huang-ti (221-210BC); actually mainly built by the Ming (1368-1644AD)--S. Kroeze
  
  Great Wall of China: "Extensive bulwark erected in ancient China. It is one of the largest building-construction projects ever carried out, running (with all its branches) about 4,500 miles (7,300 km) east to west from Shan-hai Pass near Po Hai (Gulf of Chihli) to Chia-yü Pass (in modern Kansu province). Without its branches and other secondary sections, the wall extends for some 4,160 miles (6,700 km), often tracing the crestlines of hills and mountains as it snakes across the Chinese countryside. Large parts of the fortification date from the 7th through the 4th century BC. In the 3rd century BC Shih huang-ti, the first emperor of a united China, connected a number of existing defensive walls into a single system. Although lengthy sections of the wall are now in ruins or have disappeared completely, it is still one of the more remarkable structures on earth. The Great Wall was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 1987."--Yin( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...8652+1,00.html )
  
• Hanging Gardens:
  
  Legendary; if they ever existed tradition associates them with Semiramis/Sammuramat (~810-806BC) or Nebuchadrezzar II (604-562BC)--S. Kroeze
  
  Nebuchadnezzar II's palace with terraced gardens, built between shortly after 600 BC--The Mad Viking
  
  Hanging Gardens of Babylon: One of the Seven Wonders of the World. The gardens, built within the walls of the royal palace at Babylon, the capital of Babylonia (now in southern Iraq), did not actually "hang" but were instead "up in the air"--that is, they were roof gardens laid out on a series of ziggurat terraces that were irrigated by pumps from the Euphrates River. Traditionally, they were the work either of the semilegendary Queen Sammu-ramat (Greek Semiramis, mother of the Assyrian king Adad-nirari III, who reigned from 810 to 783 BC) or of King Nebuchadrezzar II (reigned c. 605-c. 561 BC), who built them to console his Median wife, Amytis, because she missed the mountains and greenery of her homeland."--Yin( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...9950+1,00.html )
  
• The Lighthouse:
  
  During the reign of Ptolemy I (305-283BC) and Ptolemy II (283-247BC); built by Sostratos of Knidos from ~285BC--S. Kroeze
  
  "The forerunners of lighthouses proper were beacon fires kindled on hilltops, the earliest references to which are contained in the Iliad and the Odyssey (c. 8th century BC). The first authenticated man-made lighthouse was the renowned Pharos of Alexandria, which stood some 350 feet (about 110 metres) high. The Romans erected many lighthouse towers in the course of expanding their empire, and by AD 400 there were some 30 in service from the Black Sea to the Atlantic. These included a famous lighthouse at Ostia, the port of Rome, completed in AD 50, and lighthouses at Boulogne, Fr., and Dover, Eng. A fragment of the original Roman lighthouse at Dover still survives. The Phoenicians, trading from the Mediterranean to Great Britain, marked their route with lighthouses. These early lighthouses had wood fires or torches burning in the open, sometimes protected by a roof. After the 1st century AD, candles or oil lamps were used in lanterns with panes of glass or horn."--Yin ( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...7655+2,00.html )
  
  "Pharos of Alexandria: One of the Seven Wonders of the World and the most famous lighthouse in antiquity. It was a technological triumph and is the archetype of all lighthouses since. Built by Sostratus of Cnidus, perhaps for Ptolemy I Soter, it was finished during the reign of Soter's son Ptolemy II of Egypt in about 280 BC. The lighthouse stood on the island of Pharos in the harbour of Alexandria and is said to have been more than 350 feet (110 metres) high; the only taller man-made structures at the time would have been the pyramids of Giza. Much of what is known about the structure of the lighthouse comes from a 1909 work by Hermann Thiersch, Pharos, antike, Islam und Occident. According to the ancient sources consulted by Thiersch, the lighthouse was built in three stages, all sloping slightly inward; the lowest was square, the next octagonal, and the top cylindrical. A broad spiral ramp led to the top, where a fire burned at night."--Yin ( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...592999,00.html )
  
• Oracle:
  
  Destruction of Krisa in 590BC opened free access to Delphi; the Pythian games were raised to Panhellenic status in 582BC; the prestige of the Oracle was now at its height--S. Kroeze
  
  DelphicOracle: "It was consulted not only on private matters but also on affairs of state, and its utterances often swayed public policy. It was also consulted whenever a colony was to be sent out from Greece proper, so that its fame spread to the limits of the Greek-speaking world. Such influence led to controversy, and several more sacred wars were waged over the oracle, with control of the site shifting between rival city-states."--Yin( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...0338+1,00.html )
  
  
• Pyramids:
  
  of Khufu (~2590-2567BC), Khafre (~2540-~2514BC) and Menkaure (~2510-~2500BC)--S. Kroeze
  
  Masonry: The first stonebuild structure is the Step Pyramid and its Funerary Complex of Djoser (3rd Dynasty, 2630-2611 BC) in Saqqara, Egypt. It was build by the architect Imhotep who was later deified in the Ptolemaic era--Huey
  
  Giza, Pyramids of: "4th-dynasty (c. 2575-c. 2465 BC) pyramids erected on a rocky plateau on the west bank of the Nile River near Al-Jizah (Giza), northern Egypt; in ancient times they were included among the Seven Wonders of the World. The ancient ruins of the Memphis area, including the Pyramids of Giza, Saqqarah, Dahshur, Abu Ruwaysh, and Abu Sir, were collectively designated a World Heritage site in 1979. The designations of the pyramids--Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure--correspond to the kings for whom they were built. The northernmost and oldest pyramid of the group was built for Khufu (Greek: Cheops), the second king of the 4th dynasty. Called the Great Pyramid, it is the largest of the three, the length of each side at the base averaging 7553/4 feet (230 metres) and its original height being 4812/5 feet (147 metres). The middle pyramid was built for Khafre (Greek: Chephren), the fourth of the eight kings of the 4th dynasty; the structure measures 7073/4 feet (216 metres) on each side and was originally 471 feet (143 metres) high. The southernmost and last pyramid to be built was that of Menkaure (Greek: Mykerinus), the fifth king of the 4th dynasty."--Yin( http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/ar...7678+1,00.html )
  
• Sun Tzu's War Academy:
  
  I don't think there ever was a "Sun Tzu Academy"--Hugo Rune (can we get his birth and death dates?)==The problem with finding Sun Tzu's birth/death dates is that no-one knows who he really was or even if he existed at all...
  
  This is from Britannica.com-"The book is traditionally attributed to Sun Tzu (personal name Sun Wu), a military strategist and general who served the state of Wu near the end of the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 BC). It is more likely, however, that it was written early in the Warring States period (475-221 BC), at a time when China was divided into six or seven states that often resorted to war with each other in their struggles for supremacy."--Hugo Rune([url]http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,72168+1,00.htmlrl]

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 14, 2000).]

[yin26]

Colossus added
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 13, 2000).]

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Yin26,

I want to explain my slightly different dating of the Colossus. The actual truth is: we don't know exactly. The information we have is the following:
-It took 12 years to complete it
-After 56 years it was overthwown by an earthquake

So historians try to date the earthquake that shook Rhodos and then count back. I have found at least three different dates for the earthquake and perhaps made the wrong guess. At the moment I'm inclined to follow P.Green, "Alexander to Actium"(1990) because his study is very thorough, by far the best on Hellenistic history. He dates the earthquake at 228/227, which would result in a slightly earlier dating.

On the earthquake Green lists in a note the following sources:
Polyb.5.88-90 passim, DS 26.8.1, Plin.HN34.41; cf Strabo 14.2.5(C652); Casson,"Grain Trade"171-72; Berthold, Rhodes 92-93

But for the moment I cant check these sources, though I like such puzzles

[yin26]

S. Kroeze,

No problem! I think it's kind of fun realizing what we know and don't know. Please keep helping me, though!

[yin26]

FINISHED! Now, if we want to fight over some stuff, let's get at it.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 14, 2000).]

A very good link to the Djoser pyramid: http://www.geocities.com/~amenhotep/...ara/index.html

[S. Kroeze]

Sun Tzu's War Academy:
Sun Tzu, author of the 'Art of War'
the book is presumed to have been written during the period of the Warring States(484-221BC), but little is known about its author. However, the version which has come down to us includes passages describing military actions from the Period of Disunity(221-589AD) and even later. Sun Tzu's biography appears in the 'Shih Chi' of Ssu-ma Ch'ien, which tells us his surname was Wu.
see: J. Clavell(ed.): 'Sun Tzu "The Art of War"',1983
(source: some historical dictionary about China by H.B. O'Neill, 1987)

Sun Wu, general of king Helu of Wu(~514/~496BC)
This Sun Wu had a descendant known because of his military ruses: Sun Bin(middle of the 4th centuryBC); printed during the Sung(960-1279)
Recent archaeological discoveries at Yinqueshan(in Shantung province) resulted in the finding of several manuscripts written on bamboo sheets in tombs of the early Han(206BC-8AD). Among them a
Sunzi bingfa,'The Art of War of Master Sun' in 13 chapters and a
Sun Bin bingfa,'The Art of War of Sun Bin' in 30 chapters.

This finding inclines us to suppose two different persons with the name of Sun. The Sunzi, read and used for many generations, corresponds with the Sunzi bingfa. This manual on strategy is a delicate blend of malice, cunning and intuition. It was doubtless a product of the legalistic tradition. It teaches the reader, by use of spies, guerrilla warfare and mobility of troops, how to esteem the costs of war and how to obtain definitely a victory.
(source: E.Steens:'Dictionnaire de la civilisation chinoise',1996;my translation)

An interesting citation I think, making things still more complicated!

Dear Yin26,

I would like to add the newest results of my efforts and reading, some remarks about a few techs and improvements. At the moment the original thread is closed. Where should I post it?

Sincere regards!

[yin26]

S. Kroeze,

Thanks for the update! Any new stuff you find that won't fit in an open thread (they will all open one by one) should go in General Discussion. I'll be sure to update everything. Thanks!

[Urban Ranger]

According to the book Art of War Explained (translation my own), which has an appendix detailing the life and times of Sun Tzu (or Sun Tze), he was the general (acutally military advisor) for King Helu of Wu. Sun Tzu was instrumental in defeating a much bigger rivalling neighbor, Ch'o (I think), in a campaign that ended with the fall of Ch'o's capital, thus securing King Helu the title of Overlord -- similar to the Japanese Shogun, although there was no central government during the Spring and Autumn Period.

------------------
audentes fortuna juvat

[Urban Ranger]

More info on Sun Tzu.

Sun Tsu, name Wu (Sun Tsu is a deferential name, similar to Mr Sun), born app. 552 BCE - 542 BCE. First met with Wu king Helu in 512 BCE. Ochestrated the campaign against Ch'o in 506 BCE.

[Urban Ranger]

Correction

The Wu army did not take the capital of Ch'o. Rather, it beseiged the city for some time but ultimately failed to take it.

[Youngsun]

Urban Ranger

You are right he was more like a military advisor than an actual general.

And I think your first saying is also right about the taking of Ch'o's capital. After they took the capital, Wu army's discipline was collapsed with luxurious life style then Ch'o army got reinforcement from neigbouring kingdoms(I don't remember their names) and repulsed Wu army.

If I'm wrong please correct me because my memory on this part particular is not very clear now.

And I think the wonder should be the book(The Art of War) not a military acadmey as well as the name of the book called by Chinese " Sun Tzu's military tactics/Strategies".

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 18, 2000).]

[Urban Ranger]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 03-18-2000 11:37 AM Urban Ranger You are right he was more like a military advisor than an actual general. And I think your first saying is also right about the taking of Ch'o's capital. After they took the capital, Wu army's discipline was collapsed with luxurious life style then Ch'o army got reinforcement from neigbouring kingdoms(I don't remember their names) and repulsed Wu army. If I'm wrong please correct me because my memory on this part particular is not very clear now. And I think the wonder should be the book(The Art of War) not a military acadmey as well as the name of the book called by Chinese " Sun Tzu's military tactics/Strategies". [This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited March 18, 2000).]

I am not sure about the Wu-Ch'o war either, so I guess we need somebody else to clarify this point

You are right that the wonder should be the book, but then it is hard to nail it down in a city

[S. Kroeze]

Hanging Gardens:

-about Semiramis
'Shamshi-Adad's son, Adad-nirâri III(810-783BC), was very young when his father died, and for four years the government of Assyria was in the hands of his mother Sammuramat- the legendary Semiramis. How this queen, whose reign has left hardly a trace in Assyrian records, acquired the reputation of being 'the most beautiful, most cruel, most powerful and most lustful of Oriental queens' is a most baffling problem. The legend of Semiramis, as told in the first centuryBC by Diodorus Siculus- who drew his material from the now lost Persica of Ctesias, a Greek author and the physician at the court of Artaxerxes II(404-359BC)- is that of a manly woman born of a Syrian goddess, who became queen of Assyria by marrying Ninus, the mythical founder of Ninive, founded Babylon, built astonishing monuments in Persia, conquered Media, Egypt, Libya and Bactria, conducted an unsuccessful military expedition in India and turned into a dove on her death. This legend contains many ingredients, including a possible confusion with Naqi'a/Zakûtu (the wife of Sennacherib, who supervised the reconstruction of Babylon destroyed by her husband), as well as reminiscences of the conquests of Darius I, of the Indian war of Alexander the Great, and even of the Achaemenian court with the terrible queen-mother Parysatis. Semiramis also shares some traits with Ishtar as a war goddess who, like her, destroyed her lovers. At first sight, all this has nothing to do with what we know of Adad-nirâri's mother. Yet both Herodotos and Berossos, who said very little about Semiramis, have indirectly made it clear that she and Sammuramat were one and the same person. Where, then, is the link between the two women? The whole story has a strong Iranian flavour. Perhaps Sammuramat did something which greatly surprised and impressed the Medes (she might have led a battle against them), and her prowess was transmitted through generations, distorted and embroidered, by Iranian story-tellers, until they reached the ears of Ctesias. But this, like other hypotheses, cannot be substantiated. Presented in many forms, Diodorus's account of the Semiramis legend has met with an enormous success, notably in Western Europe, until the beginning of this century. And thus, by an ironical trick of fate the memory of the virile Assyrian kings has been passed to posterity under the guise of a woman.'
(source: G.Roux:'Ancient Iraq',1992)

-about the palace of Nebuchadrezzar II
'Immediately behind the city-wall and close to the Ishtar Gate lay the 'Southern Citadel' (Südburg), 'the House the marvel of mankind, the centre of the Land, the shining Residence, the dwelling of Majesty'- in simpler words, the palace built by Nebuchadrezzar over the smaller palace of Nabopolassar, his father. This very large building was entered from Procession Street through one single monumental gate and comprised five courtyards in succession, each of them surrounded by offices, reception rooms and royal apartments. The throne-room was enormous (c. 52 by 17 metres) and seems to have been vaulted. In contrast with the Assyrian palaces, no colossi of stone guarded the doors, no sculpted slabs or inscribed orthostats lined the walls. The only decorations- obviously intended to please the eye rather than inspire fear- consisted of animals, pseudo-columns and floral designs in yellow, white, red and blue on panels of glazed bricks. Of special interest was a peculiar construction in the north-eastern corner of the palace. It lay below ground-level and was made of a narrow corridor and fourteen small vaulted cellars. In one of the cellars was found an unusual well of three shafts side by side, as used in connection with a chain-pump. It was extremely tempting to see in this construction the understructure of roof gardens, the famous 'hanging gardens of Babylon' described by classical authors and erected- so one legend tells us- by Nebuchadrezzar for the pleasure of his wife, the Median princess Amytis. Recent excavations there have yielded less romantic results: these rooms merely served as stores for administative tablets.'
(source: G.Roux:'Ancient Iraq',1992)

Wonders of the Ancient World:
'With the establishment of the Successor kingdoms of the Hellenistic era, the Near East settled back into the age-old patterns it had known from the dawn of civilization. The Ptolemies and Seleucids even produced, with their royal deifications, a politicized, quasi-secular version of the pharaonic or Babylonian god-king, priest and prophet of his people. At the same time the flourishing commercialism of these kingdoms led, inevitably, to a degree of public ostentation- coupled with bread and circuses for the increasingly restive urban proletariat: the dividing line between religious spectacle and popular entertainment is often blurred- that would have astounded a civic promoter like Pericles. No one, it is worth stressing, ever thought of including the Parthenon among the Seven Wonders, which are, essentially, a Hellenistic tribute to gigantism: the Pyramids, the Mausoleum of Halicarnassos, the Colossus of Rhodos, the Temple of Artemis at Ephesos, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the Pharos of Alexandria. The only fifth-century Athenian work included is Pheidias's statue of Zeus at Olympia; and we can be certain that what earned that its place was, as in every other case, its stupefying size.'
(source: P.Green:'Alexander to Actium',1990)

Its a pity the Greeks had a very restricted knowledge about other, far-away civilizations, like the Indian or Chinese. Neither did they sympathize with the much older and venerable civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt, of which they only had a superficial understanding. Essentially they thought about these as barbarians, conquered and colonized because of their own military and cultural superiority.

I hope CivIII will not make the same mistake! There are many worthy candidates for Wonders of the World outside the civilizations of the Greek and Western Christianity.

[ottok]

Koerce is RIGHT! This is full what i think...
But Hey! At Civilization Game at SOME ones think what these are?!

Rhodos Colosus, make in Macedonian greatest millitaryleader? But ?
In Greek Have these know what these are "miracled" are Egypt? Not "Pyramids!"
Something else...