So *this* is how mutual protection pacts work...

Kekkonen · November 24, 2001, 04:29

Situation from last night: I'm playing the French, and I have a border with the Russians, among others. In mid-game, Catherine the Fat sends a few of her knights and a couple of pikemen and swordsmen into my territory. I tell her to get out or declare war, and she does the latter. I have a vague recollection that the Russians had a mutual protection pact with Rome, but I'm too lazy to check whether it's still active since Rome is on another continent and doesn't look like a power to be concerned about.

The knights attack, but they have no chance against defending musketeers. I then bring in some cavalry to mop up. The Romans do nothing, so I assume the pact has expired. Meanwhile, more Russians keep coming over the border -- on foot, fortunately. I gather more cavalry into the area.

The Russian footsoldiers take heavy casualties, and they decide to withdraw from French territory. Catherine is still not available for peace negotiations, so I decide to hurt them more and send Cavalry into Russian territory to finish off the fleeing pikemen and warriors.

The Romans didn't lift a finger when I slaughtered Russians on French soil. However, as soon as I attack the first Russian unit on Russian territory, the Romans declare war on me due to the mutual protection pact they still had with the Russians. So, it seems that if you declare war on someone, your pact brothers/sisters are not obliged to do anything as long as the fight is not fought on your soil. If the offensive goes badly and the calamity turns into a defensive war and your units are attacked in your territory, your buddies must come in for help. I must say, if this is the way it works, it makes sense. I just wish this had been explained more thoroughly in the manual, as I now have to be on the lookout for Roman caravels.

BTW, it seems like a defensive victory by an unique unit doesn't trigger Golden Age. Nothing happened when my musketeers dispatched attacking Russian knights. When one of them blew a Russian warrior to smithereens, I got into GA.

***

Edit: defensive victory by an UU _can_ trigger Golden Age. I tested this with the hoplite; I pissed off the Romans on purpose, declared war on them and when their first archer died attacking my hoplite, GA started.

Sorry for the wrong initial info, either my memory was playing tricks on me or the knights retreated from the battle at 1 hp (only to die in a cavalry assault on the next turn), in which case the battle with the musketeer was probably considered a draw.

Raleigh · November 24, 2001, 05:48

Thanks! I didn't know victories by a special unit can cause a Golden Age. Is this only for militaristic countries?

Zanzin · November 24, 2001, 06:04

Interesting story!

Btw, can you have more than one golden age during the course of the game?

tomcat ha · November 24, 2001, 06:09

nice but how do you sign embassies.
i just don`t know how.
(kinda newbie question)

Wrong_shui · November 24, 2001, 06:17

Tomcat, click on the star next to you capital

tomcat ha · November 24, 2001, 06:18

i knew it woud be something that easy.
(i am feeling stupid)

Roland Ehnström · November 24, 2001, 06:20

Great info Kekkonen, thanks!

Raleigh, this applies for ALL civilizations: As soon as one of your UU's win in a battle (according to Kekkonen only if your unit is the attacking one, though, which would make it difficult for the Greeks since thier UU is the Hopolite 1.3.1), your Golden Age starts.

tomcat ha, to establish an Embassy, double-click on the star next to the name of your capital city. NOTE: This only works once you have discovered Writing. btw: You *could* have chacked the manual at page 138 too...

Peace!

-- Roland

Roland Ehnström · November 24, 2001, 06:21

Doh, Wrong_shui beat me to it, oh well - gotto type faster!

-- Roland

Kekkonen · November 24, 2001, 07:13

About the Golden Age and defensive victory thing: now that I think about it, I'm not sure the defending musketeer actually killed the attacking knights. They may have retreated from battle when down to 1 hp, and that may not count as a victory. So I'm not entirely sure the Greeks are screwed.

Zanzin: you can only have one golden age per game (and even that one isn't guaranteed; I played a game as the Russians where I had no access to saltpeter, hence no cossacks and no UU victories).

Peets · November 24, 2001, 07:24

Actually very interesting if it works this way.
Then if you know your ennemy as a mutaul pact with someone who is a lot stronger then you then you just avoid to hit your ennemy in his border.
Of course you can't steal cities but you can avoid a war with a stronger one. So just wait until they cancel the mutual protection pact.

Skanky Burns · November 24, 2001, 08:03

You can use this to your advantage as well. In one game, there were 3 world powers, me being one of them

The other 2 had a mutual protection pact, and all was well. Then the Aztecs declared war on me. I quickly got a mutual protection pact with the other civ, and then sat around for a few turns. Eventually, the Aztecs moved some ships near my land, and bombarded in preparation for their invasion.

This triggered the other civ to declare war on them, and the Aztec invasion force turned tail so as to protect their homeland, now that they were at war with 2 civs

The only hard part is getting the mutual protection pact in the first place.

Libertarian · November 24, 2001, 08:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Kekkonen
About the Golden Age and defensive victory thing: now that I think about it, I'm not sure the defending musketeer actually killed the attacking knights. They may have retreated from battle when down to 1 hp, and that may not count as a victory. So I'm not entirely sure the Greeks are screwed.

Zanzin: you can only have one golden age per game (and even that one isn't guaranteed; I played a game as the Russians where I had no access to saltpeter, hence no cossacks and no UU victories).

It could be a false memory, I suppose, but I could have sworn that I had at least one game with two golden ages.

Fistleaf · November 24, 2001, 09:38

The mutual protection pact can be exploited easily. Choose 1 civ to invade, get mutual protection from nearby civs, invade the victim civ. When the victim counterattacks you on your territory, all your allies will declare war on them.

G.A · November 24, 2001, 12:40

One Golden Age per game would be unfair to Aztecs, as they usually get it on the 5th turn

. And you sure realize, that an early Golden Age is much less profitable, than the later one.

And I`m even afraid to suggest what would be if Americans get their G.A (

) through F15 in modern era... Erm, that`d be devastating

Chronus · November 24, 2001, 13:19

I'm of the understanding that a UU victory MAY start a Golden Age but not AUTOMATICALLy. Am I wrong?

kmj · November 24, 2001, 14:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Chronus
I'm of the understanding that a UU victory MAY start a Golden Age but not AUTOMATICALLy. Am I wrong?

You're right. Also, wonders may trigger a golden age... I think each one has a chance of triggering for each type of civ (i.e., religious, scientific, etc.)

tomcat ha · November 24, 2001, 15:20

i had very cool thing.
i was playing the americans.
i was going realy good.
then the aztecks (or whatever ) declared war on me .
i wasn`t a superpower but i had good frends and signed a mutal protection pact with 5 of them

all at the same level as me

and we kicked there but very hard

that was soo much fun

hehehe.

Cian McGuire · November 24, 2001, 19:42

Quote:

Raleigh, this applies for ALL civilizations: As soon as one of your UU's win in a battle (according to Kekkonen only if your unit is the attacking one, though, which would make it difficult for the Greeks since thier UU is the Hopolite 1.3.1), your Golden Age starts.

Slaughtering barbarians has no effect either

Elucidus · November 24, 2001, 20:47

Hmmm. So how is it americans would get their GA? An F-15 can't destroy another unit and Air Interception is broken. Does blowing up a building count?

Also I can confirm that is the way a MPP works, at least if the nation doesn't want to get involved. I had a MPP with the French, Chinese, and the Egyptions. I invaded India. I took one city and sat in there to rest up. Well, guess what? That is now my territory. The very next turn all my MPP-friends declared war on India. Pretty cool.

November 24, 2001, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Elucidus
Hmmm. So how is it americans would get their GA? An F-15 can't destroy another unit and Air Interception is broken. Does blowing up a building count?

Also I can confirm that is the way a MPP works, at least if the nation doesn't want to get involved. I had a MPP with the French, Chinese, and the Egyptions. I invaded India. I took one city and sat in there to rest up. Well, guess what? That is now my territory. The very next turn all my MPP-friends declared war on India. Pretty cool.

America would get their GA from distroying another air unit, BUT seeing that that is bugged the only other way is via a wonder...

Zanzin · November 24, 2001, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Kekkonen

Zanzin: you can only have one golden age per game (and even that one isn't guaranteed; I played a game as the Russians where I had no access to saltpeter, hence no cossacks and no UU victories).

Thanks for the info. I'm playing as the Germans at the moment, got my golden age early on through a wonder (great wall, I think). Pity I won't get another one!

D4everman · November 24, 2001, 21:17

I wish I had read this thread earlier because i just found this out myself ten minutes ago. Luckily i was saving every turn, because I want to guage how long it takes for war weariness to affect my democracy.

Long story short....I'm the indians, in a war with the iroqious, that they started. MPP's kicked in and a lot of civs were involved. So I made alliance with those that weren't involved to help me crush my enemies. Well, the japanese turned on me, even though they weren't involved in the initial conflict. I got pissed and destroyed the units they sent into my territory. No problem.

But then I sent a battleship to bombard their coastline. Uh-oh, Spaghettio's!

All of the nuetrals I had allied with turned on me because they had MPP's with japan! Whatta revoltin' development. So apparently its okay to smack japan around if they're in my territory, but not if I attack them in theirs. This would be cool if Air Superiority worked!

As it is they are free to smash my roads and improvements from the air in nearby cities and I can't take out the cities without everyone else declaring war on me.

FIRAXIS- FIX THIS BUG