AI caught cheating

[Isle]

Sorry a little explaination: Ofcouse in civ2 improvement cheating wasnt nearly as obvious, but I have found AI cities with a small island nearby. Where the island was irrigated before the invention of map making.

[Fromage]

Could someone post a screenshot or a save game file, so I could see how AI cheats. Atleast I haven't seen anything in four games.

[Ludwig]

SoHappy -

The AI is not exempt from the resource requirement. I wondered about this too, because I was having troubling finding the resources I wanted to steal from the AI...but if you can't see the resource, one of three things is probably true:

1. The resource is on a tile the AI built a city on. The resources are placed during the map creation phase, so there's nothing preventing them from popping up under cities once they become visible.

2. The AI built a mine on it. Many of the resources become EXTREMELY hard to see when the tile containing them is mined.

3. You are just missing it in your review. This is not a flame, the darned things can be really hard to see under fog of war.

#2 and #3 can be greatly ameliorated by downloading one of the mod files that attachs lettered flags to the resources to make them more noticeable. I have found my enjoyment of the resource system greatly enhanced by a simple download to change the graphic. The mod will work on your saved games, too, so if you download it now you can use it in your current game.

For #1 you can try hitting Shift-M [I believe]. This is supposed to remove all cities and improvements from the map to let you see the underlying terrain. In conjunction with the label mod this should enable you to see where the AI is hiding his saltpetre.

Actually, I just thought of a 4th and a 5th option.

#4. The AI HAD saltpetre, and used it to manufacture a lot of gunpowder units, and then the saltpetre deposit was exhausted. He still gets to keep the units he built, and gets to finish any units in his queue, even with the resource gone.

#5. The AI got saltpetre by trading with another AI. The trade may still be current, or it may have lapsed. If current it should show up on the foreign advisor screen. If lapsed, the rules in #4 apply.

[Cian McGuire]

Psiwar-

There are three kinds of water hexes in the game- coast, sea, and ocean. There are no 'Lake' or 'Freshwater' hexes in this game. All interior bodies of water not connected to the main body is considered freshwater- even though they are still called 'Coast'. In the second screenshot one cannot view the terrain surrounding the lake, but going by the first there is no connection between that one-hex lake and the body of water to the south.

Now, what the AI can do, and you can too- is build mines over old irrigated squares. Hence the lack of irrigation at #7 NW above Moscow, and the 2 hexes directly south of Minsk. They were irrigated at some point in time but then replaced with mines to increase production.

Also, cities now act as irrigated squares, unlike Civ 2- you can have a body of water connected to your city, then irrigate from that.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Psiwar
I only play in regent level because i like no cheats either against or for the AI.

This is probably just a carryover from Civ2. In Civ2, the AI settlers could irrigate anywhere. It was just something that the AI needed becuase it was too hard to think through gettting water otherwise. There are other "cheats" that carry over from Civ2. for instance, the AI plays with the entire map revealed. He only "scouts" becuase they wrote a subroutine to do this so that the human player can see it. But the AI always knows where your units and cities are. It's just too hard for the AI to be competetive without some of these cheats.

[TCO]

Originally posted by NZrevenge
If the computer cheats, then atleast it's fair. In my first few games, back when I still trusted the fully automated workers, I noticed things like this happening in my own territory as well.

This leads me to believe that either I am very unobservant, or there is a bug in the automated worker AI...

Y'all: don't get exercised. The same thing happened in civ2. The AI could irrigate anywhere and so could you...if you auto-settlered.

[Venger]

Originally posted by GP

There are other "cheats" that carry over from Civ2. for instance, the AI plays with the entire map revealed. He only "scouts" becuase they wrote a subroutine to do this so that the human player can see it. But the AI always knows where your units and cities are. It's just too hard for the AI to be competetive without some of these cheats.

This doesn't have to be this way - the AI does not need to have the map revealed, in fact, each AI player should have his own unique known map set. While the game system needs to know the entire map, any AI routine should check against that AI's known map.

Venger

[FrostyBoy]

using my graphics, good boy

[TCO]

They tried this in CTP and the AI had major problems being competetive.

If they come up with much smarter AI, this is definitly the way to go (agreed) as "cheats" tend to ruin the atmosphere. But at the current time this is "easier said than done" because of the complexity of the game.

[Venger]

Hmmm...I would think that it'd not be too hard to have each Civilization have it's own map. Has Firaxis come out and said that every AI opponent knows the whole world? If so, why do they want to trade maps or value my map? That doesn't make sense.

Venger

[TCO]

(a)Venger,

You can give each AI it's own map. But then you need to have smarter AI's that can think more like a human or the game will suffer. It's an open question as to wether that can be done yet. If it can, great. But not an easy task...

The AI trades maps for the same reason as sending out scout units: it's programmed to do so to add to your sense of immersion and to give you the false impression that the AI doesn't know the whole map. But it gets no benefit from either receiving maps or from scout units.

I'm not making this up. This is a very well-known facet of how Civ2 works. Soren (Firaxis AI designer) confirmed that this is also the case in Civ3.

[Venger]

Originally posted by GP
(a)Venger,

I'm not making this up. This is a very well-known facet of how Civ2 works. Soren (Firaxis AI designer) confirmed that this is also the case in Civ3.

I knew Civ2 had this, but figured with map trading Civ3 knew better...sigh...

Venger

[Elucidus]

So how do you explain that the AIs don't make a mad dash for my terrain until I give them my map. Or at least that is how it's been so far.

[Sevorak]

Elucidus,

It looks like settling does have a restriction to "explored" terrain. Other things, however, don't, like how AI ships half a world away will set sail as soon as a Privateer leaves your harbour, or how their galleys, caravels and frigates have an unerring ability to track your submarines. Similarly, going for your least-defended (or even undefended) cities - an early post on the Strategy forum showed how you could keep an AI force at bay by alternately covering and uncovering two large coastal cities. The AI force would sail toward the undefended city, and when you uncovered the defended city and railed its forces to the undefended city, it would turn around and sail for the previously defended (now undefended) city - even when OUT of visual range. In this way, you could keep AI forces sailing up and down a fairly long coast.

-Sev

[TCO]

Originally posted by Elucidus
So how do you explain that the AIs don't make a mad dash for my terrain until I give them my map. Or at least that is how it's been so far.

Same as Sevorak said. Plus, I'd ask you. How does it compare to Civ2? In terms of AI map cheat? Don't really know too much about the settling issue.

[Dienstag]

I've noticed AI Civs blatently expanding in my direction before I've traded maps...but after they had found me with their scouts (sometimes as early as 3800 BC! ). So I assumed AI had its own map. If Soren said otherwise I haven't seen it. Could anyone find that quote?

[Psiwar]

Snoopy, of course i'm using your graphs, they are very good and after a while they become like home. I just don't use the irrigation because the original looks more like actual irrigation.

Now, if you would just change the flood plains to look diferent from the deserts...

[Elucidus]

Sevorak,

Good answer. That was all I wanted to know.

GP,

It was just a question, not a sarcastic comment. As far as Civ2...I don't care, this is Civ3.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Elucidus
Sevorak,

Good answer. That was all I wanted to know.

GP,

It was just a question, not a sarcastic comment. As far as Civ2...I don't care, this is Civ3.

No sweat. I didn't think either one of us was being sarcastic. The reason I mention Civ2 is becuase the games are related and because theire are some valuable clues to how civ3 works that you can get from understanding Civ2. (Which has had extensive hard core analysis done on it.)

[Elucidus]

Okay, I understand that. However, I hadn't played Civ2 in a long time. So I couldn't tell you.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and sorry to come of so, er, asinine. My son has been acting up here lately and I'm easily agitated.

[SoHappy]

Ludwig: Thanks for your comments and appreciate it was not a flame But tried all those before, and I use the "clear map" option all the time. The problem is I destoyed the germans and removed all their cities as well, and still no saltpeter there? also they where producing units during the battle, so the resource did not disapear (though good thought as did not think of that possibility). Their land space was really small so not a great deal of terrirory to explore, I then colonised every last inch and I didnt not gain any additional saltpeter, so was not hiding under anything! In my latest game I am again noticing the same thing, however this time there is a higher chance the AI is trading as some of my opponents have more than one source.

Thanks anyway ludwig, and would be interested if someone could come up with some proof for/against what I found?

[dexters]

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but read my thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...568#post626327

[TCO]

Originally posted by dexters
Sorry to burst your bubbles, but read my thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...568#post626327

1. Why did you start a different thread about this?

2. Your points are well taken, but were already adressed earlier in this thread.

3. That it is possible to irrigate and than mine does not porve or disprove that this is what happened. Try setting your workers to auto and see if they can cheat on irrigation. (The auto subroutine uses the AI routine.)

4. This was a well-known cheat in Civ2. I think it is just continued in civ3.

[dexters]

Originally posted by GP

3. That it is possible to irrigate and than mine does not porve or disprove that this is what happened. Try setting your workers to auto and see if they can cheat on irrigation. (The auto subroutine uses the AI routine.)

4. This was a well-known cheat in Civ2. I think it is just continued in civ3.

3. If you have a city on a floodplain tile with a grassland tile next to it, it is very difficult to find out about it. I remember my first time playing, I had several cities close to floodplains and I was confused why my workers could irrigate tiles that had no rivers close to it. I found out later floodplains, which looks a lot like deserts and plains, could be irrigated anywhere it exists, close to a river or not.

4. Well, it is definately not a cheat in Civ 3, as proven.

I challenge Psiwar to check the terrain in and around all of the russian cities, and if I'm proven right, to admit it and stop the nonesense. Better yet, post his .sav file and I'll go have a look myself.

Also note that once electricity is discovered, you can irrigate anywhere you want, no need for water supply.

GP, your agreeing to something because it sort of makes sense. But common sense is not always common, nor does is it always the sensible right answer. The history of human follies has proven what seems like an obvious answer is often the wrong answer.

[TCO]

Dexter...I agree that we don't know for sure wether the AI cheats or not. Could you construct another test?

Make an AI city that is on the ocean coast, put a 1 sq island off the coast but within the city range. Could use a diagonal tile I guess. (make it grassland, the island. But make the city floodplain) Than put a worker on the island and see if it irrigates it. Or just wait to see if the AI irrigates it.

[TCO]

Bump

[Cian McGuire]

Sorry to contradict you, but lakes DOES exist in Civ3. In fact, as it was stated in the another thread, a lake is an enclosed coastal tile, and is considered as fresh water. It is 2 food 2 commerce, while salted coastal is 1 food 2 commerce.

This if from dexter's thread.

You find me a pic of a 'Lake' tile and the saved game.

It's that simple- if you're going to sit there and proclaim something then the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.

There is no 'Lake' tile anywhere in this game unless you edit one in- there is no mention of a lake tile anywhere in the manual, and same with the strategy guide.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by GP
Dexter...I agree that we don't know for sure wether the AI cheats or not. Could you construct another test?

Make an AI city that is on the ocean coast, put a 1 sq island off the coast but within the city range. Could use a diagonal tile I guess. (make it grassland, the island. But make the city floodplain) Than put a worker on the island and see if it irrigates it. Or just wait to see if the AI irrigates it.

Er, GP?
Methinks you may have forgotten the little problem with not being able to put cities/units on the map at present...


This was why Firaxis didn't give us a scenario editor!
So we can't establish that their AI cheats!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by ravagon


Er, GP?
Methinks you may have forgotten the little problem with not being able to put cities/units on the map at present...

Shoot. Could you maybe edit it in such a way that the AI is likely to use it? You understand what I mean by a diagonal tile right. The units can travel between tiles that touch only on a corner but youi can't irrigate unless you cheat. Maybe you could set up a map with all water except for sets of two diagonal touching tiles.

This was why Firaxis didn't give us a scenario editor!
So we can't establish that their AI cheats!!

They're devious...they're civers!!!

[Baloo]

I retract my statements that the AI allegedly cheating. A bit ashamed but for the sake of truth, I got to.

Ok, I made two small islands via the CivIIImod: one island, bereft of freshwater sources, is for the AI. Another island is for me - full of goody huts and resources for me to quickly grow my empire. The distance between the two islands is so close it can be navigated by a trireme. So I play a Prince level game, 1 vs 1 only. I colonized every nook and section of my island while waited until 500 AD to visit my "neighbor".

When I visit the AI in 500 AD, he had only mines and roads without irrigation. Oh boy, he's (Caesar) very angry to see me and probably exclaim something like "Why do you put me in this $#%!hole of an island!"

You guys are welcomed try it out in Emperor and Diety level.