Civilization - thoughts on the series

[jack_frost]

I've been a pretty big fan of the Civ series. Although not a hardcore fan, as I never tried to win Civ2 with a single size one city. And hell, in all reality, I liked pirates! more.. and Railroad Tycoon...woo..awsome game.

But I am sort of dissapointed with Civ3. Not because it doesn't improve on the civ series (which it does - greatly. At least as much as Civ2 improved on Civ1). But because it doesn't stand up well enough against modern competition. Simply said, the strategy game has changed a lot in the last 10 years, and there have been really interesting revolutions mostly generated from the RTS subset. Civ3 is good - but it isn't a stand out in todays game market. And hell, I'm a big fan of turn based games, I wish there were more - and I do not think RTS is the end all be all of computer strategy games. But ...

Why has Civ in my opinion not kept up with the times?

You. The rabit hardcore fan base. Its your fault, blame yourselves.



The design team was hampered by your expectations, and your absolute love of the game, and the system as it stood for the last 10 years. Look at the number of complaints generated by Air power not being able to sink ships, or the corruption model changes (both changes that IMO aided gameplay). Hell, look at the complaints over the combat system. Imagine if they made a change to basic gameplay that wasn't trivial? Christ, they'd come under heavy attack so fast you're head would spin.

This is why I suggest, Sid, and the rest of them sit down, and decide to retire the series.

Before you wildly flame me, let me say why:

A) Because I'd rather look back with love and fondness on the series that has succeeded in making every top 10 games of all time list ever made. On a series that revolutionised the industry. Then see it become a husk of itself, with new products cranked out every few years in the attempt to bleed every last dollar they can bleed out of a great idea.

B) Because they can no longer do anything innovative with the series. The hardcore fan base would be up in arms at any actual change to basic gameplay. Working on a project where you can't innovate just leads to medocrity.

C) Because its just time. Let it go. Lets all just look back fondly.



Because of issues of licensing, and the like. Please, continue using the Civ name. "Uber Game Title - a Civilization Game" or something along the lines is completely acceptable. It like SMAC would allow for innovations, and changes. It'd releave the expectations of the fans, and untie designers hands to further create intriguing worlds that players like me can lose ourselves in for years to come.

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for your time.

[Libertarian]

I do get your point. And I do appreciate the manner in which you presented it. It has become quite laborious to filter through the many hate threads — not complaints, I mean viscious diatribes — in order to find something, anything at all, that might be meaningful toward greater gameplay insight.

The strategy forum is slightly better. But even that has begun degenerating into long and dreary lamentations over what's missing, what's wrong, and how easy it is to cheat. You're right. We're biting the hand that feeds us.

There's a huge difference between, "Here's a great idea," and "How could they be so stupid?". We're seeing mostly the latter. I'm becoming more and more like you. I'm giving up on calling for an end to the rioting. I'm beginning to acknowledge the sheer futility of pleading for reasonable dialog. I'm starting to comprehend that Firaxis is damned no matter what it does.

What's the point in suggesting changes that could easily take a year or more to implement while at the same time demanding their immediate release? The Firaxis guys have more or less disappeared from here. I hope it's because they have thick skins and are working full time on the fixes.

But you know what? Looking at the thread titles right now, if I were a Firaxis developer, I might just go, "Ah, screw it." Because why work all those nights? Why bring a cot to the office just so you can have people spit on you for your efforts?

You're right. They must change the game, and yet they can't. And it is because of us.

[Rasbelin]

Interesting points, jack_frost. Sid himself has said that it's not his intension to leave some ideas unused just because a new sequel could be made to the Civ series. But I have recently figured out that Civ III perhaps doesn't follow this rule. There just is so many of those old good working parts missing or then they're worse. Didn't Firaxis proclaim that Civ III would include the juiciest parts of Civ and Civ II? Heck, the palace building is something added from Civ, but what else is? Was that just somekind of marketing trick? I don't want to flame you, but I think Civ III is something good, but there's apparently much missing.

[Barnacle Bill]

I guess I disagree with this. Oh, I can think of a host of things I'd have done differently, but that doesn't make the game a disappointment. "Innovative" is not necessarily better, just different. What I want in a sequel to any game of any sort is:

1) No cutting features from the last iteration.
2) Make it work under the current latest OS.
3) Update graphics, sound, etc... but not in ways that reduce the ability of the user to mod the game (less modable = violation of rule #1)
4) Taking advantage of the advances in processing power since the last iteration to make the game world bigger, a more accurate model of "reality", etc...
5) Fix features whose implimentation was sub-optimal in the previous iteration.
6) Add cool new features, including but not limited to cool new features in support of user modding.

I don't WANT a new game, just a better version of the old one.

Assuming the editor gets fixed sufficiently to satisfy rule #1, I think Civ3 is already on track to deliver. In particular, I am pleased with the changes in how air units and artillery are supposed to work. Disappointed by the air superiority bug, but I assume they'll fix that. I actually agree that you should not be able to destroy ground units completely via bombardment, as I think that is realistic on this scale (unit approximately = division). I think it is a mistake to apply that to ships, but maybe they will fix that, too.