German release/translation gaff

Farmer Jimbo · November 25, 2001, 11:51

I'm surprised I saw this on /. and not here:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=0...d&threshold=-1

One of the funnier/ironic comments is that German Infogrames claims the translation is in an advanced state, but won't availible until March 2002. Sounds like an incredibly sucky situation all the way around.

My apologies if this info is already being discussed in another thread.

John-SJ · November 25, 2001, 18:00

I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. If I have this right, German players want to by an English version of the game, apply a German mod, and play the game in their native language, right?

I don't see how this can be considered a copyright infringement, they are paying for the game and then modifying text files, so who's copyright is being infringed?

Does this mean that if I buy the game and modify certain text files to be more humorous that I could get fined too? Even though anyone who wanted to use my mod would STILL have to buy the game first...

John-SJ

TCO · November 25, 2001, 18:06

I guess mods are technically an illegal duplication of parts of the game. I would guess that another issues involved may be promises made to German distributors.

Different language versions are also useful for price discrimination. The English version game might be cheaper than the German one. (So they want to force Germans to buy the official trnaslated version to reake in more dollars.)

Gramphos · November 25, 2001, 18:07

See this quote from the license. Note my boldtype

Quote:

From Civilization III License AgreementOTHER RESTRICTIONS: You may not cause or permit the disclosure, copying, renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, dissemination or other distribution of the Software or the Documentation by any means or in any form, without the prior written consent of Infogrames Interactive. You may not modify, enhance, supplement, create derivative work from, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Software to human readable form.

According to this license is all editing of civ3mod.bic illegal, also changing the graphics and modifying them should be illegal. And this in a game made for moding.

BTW: Could someone explain what they mean with "create derivative work from"

Oh, and I cant understand why they don't allow translations to be made. If anyone could come up with a good reason...

Farmer Jimbo · November 25, 2001, 18:11

From the scripts.txt file in the text folder:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;
; Sid Meier's Civilization III
;
; Dialog box scripts
;
; Copyright (c) 2000, 2001 by Firaxis Games, Inc.
;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;
; INSTRUCTIONS FOR TRANSLATORS!
;
; 1) These files must not be saved in "Microsoft Word Format", or they will
; be ruined. They MUST be saved in "Text Only" format.
;
; 2) Please do not insert extra blank lines, nor remove existing blank
; lines, as this will cause the program to malfunction.
;
; 3) But it is normally okay to turn a long line into two shorter lines;
; for instance:
;
; This is a very long sentence; it probably won't fit on one line in German.
;
; is equivalent to:
;
; This is a very long sentence; It probably
; won't fit on one line in German.

I think we have a conflict of philosophies between Infogrames and Firaxis...

Gramphos · November 25, 2001, 18:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Farmer Jimbo
I think we have a conflict of philosophies between Infogrames and Firaxis...

It might be an instruction for official translators. (But why keep them in the files that everyone can see?)

Sparky · November 25, 2001, 18:32

I translated a reply on the German Infogrames site. I think they may have backed off.

General Ludd · November 25, 2001, 18:43

Doesn't infogrames have plans to release a german version? if they do, they are completely justified stoping someone from doing this.

And also, if that is the case, I'd hardly call it a 'mod' piracy would probably be a more accurate term. Just like when beta versions of games are leaked out before the actual release.

Farmer Jimbo · November 25, 2001, 19:07

Sparky: I ran the Infogrames.de site through Babelfish and I think they are tap dancing as opposed to back-peddling. Here's how I see the current situation: I group of German fans obtained a few copies English/US version. They decided to mod what they could using the built in support for translations. They contacted Infogrames.de and Firaxis and told them what they were doing. Firaxis gave them space on their server for the project as it was exactly what they designed they text file portion of the game for. Infogrames.de finally got around to reading their backlog of email and realized the financial implications of this fan mod to the Deutch version of CivIII. The project was shut down. Public critisicm followed.

Result: Deutch fans have a slim chance of getting a localized version earlier than March 2002 (ie tap-dancing).

Jason Beaudoin · November 25, 2001, 19:27

Infogames is simply unbelievable! How could they be such idiots!? If they didn't want Kai to be translating it, why didn't they have someone there contact him and discuss it with him personally explaining why it was bad for the company? Why didn't they try to work with him?

Is there anything that we can do to support him?

Jason Beaudoin · November 25, 2001, 19:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramphos
See this quote from the license. Note my boldtype

According to this license is all editing of civ3mod.bic illegal, also changing the graphics and modifying them should be illegal. And this in a game made for moding.

BTW: Could someone explain what they mean with "create derivative work from"

Oh, and I cant understand why they don't allow translations to be made. If anyone could come up with a good reason...

Ok... so you found their licensing agreement... but what about Firaxis ENCOURAGING US to modify the freaking game? Huh? Couldn't we call the ENTRAPMENT? We have one gaming company telling us "ya, sure, go ahead... mess with the graphics... play with the settings... change the text if you want; then you have the publlisher telling you not to?

This is so wrong! Kai should fight this and sue them for defamation of character! He should argue to the courts that he and other fans are openly encouraged to modify the game, and he felt there was no harm in making a translation. If Kai fought this, he would win.

If a fund for his legal expenses are ever organized, I would donate cash to his cause!

MarkG · November 25, 2001, 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramphos
It might be an instruction for official translators.

it is

Quote:

(But why keep them in the files that everyone can see?)

perhaps because the game uses those files?

Gaius Marius · November 25, 2001, 20:08

Ok, I (german speaker) read the Infogrames.de announcement, and they aren't retracting anything. They say they had to take action (oddly, in the interests of Firaxis, they claim). There's some drivel about "encouraging fan modification," which doesn't make any promises or clarify any policy. Essentially, it says they reserve the right to come down with the hammer of legal action, but only when they want to.

Mercator · November 25, 2001, 20:11

I guess we shouldn't invite Infogrames over to the Creation or Files forums then?

TCO · November 25, 2001, 20:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Gramphos

Oh, and I cant understand why they don't allow translations to be made. If anyone could come up with a good reason...

They make more money by selling seperate language versions. It enables price discrimination. (For instance if DE civers can be charged more than Americans.)

MarkG · November 25, 2001, 20:18

Gaius, can you please make a decent translation of the infogrames announcement?
http://www.infogrames.de/news.php?NID=25

systran doesnt do very well....

Mercator · November 25, 2001, 20:18

Quote:

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;
; Sid Meier's Civilization III
;
; Dialog box scripts
;
; Copyright (c) 2000, 2001 by Firaxis Games, Inc.
;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

I don't see the name Infogrames in here anywhere... And Firaxis doesn't mind the editing...

Farmer Jimbo · November 25, 2001, 20:18

I take back comment about Firaxis hosting the translation project on their server. I saw translation.civ3.de and assumed...

www.civ3.de appears to be a fan site (and a damn good one at that!) Apparently Firaxis has some doubts about the qaulity of the proposed translation prject.

On a side note, I'm not sure why I care so much about this. I live in Ohio and none of this has any bearing on my enjoyment of the game. I guess it all just smacks of poor corporate behavior IMO.

MarkG · November 25, 2001, 20:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
I guess we shouldn't invite Infogrames over to the Creation or Files forums then?

there are absolutely no problems with maps, scenarios or mods

Mercator · November 25, 2001, 20:30

But the utilities and BIC file format description are an entirely different story.

ravagon · November 25, 2001, 20:30

This all sounds most odd. In this age of global commerce and mail ordering Infogrames has to realize that a fair portion of the worlds population speaks English to the extent that many in non-English speaking countries would order English versions were they available first, and translate (or just use the English version) by themselves, regardless of supposed "deals" cut with official translators and distributors.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
I guess we shouldn't invite Infogrames over to the Creation or Files forums then?

Heh. After advertising the (presently non-existent

) scenario editor they would look pretty foolish coming out opposed to mods/scens now. That part sounds more like a standard form letter that they include to cover all bases but then don't enforce in order to allow approved fan-based editting.
It is their clause afterall so they can ignore any parts they wish.

techumseh · November 25, 2001, 20:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Farmer Jimbo
I take back comment about Firaxis hosting the translation project on their server. I saw translation.civ3.de and assumed...

www.civ3.de appears to be a fan site (and a damn good one at that!) Apparently Firaxis has some doubts about the qaulity of the proposed translation prject.

Your'e not the first one to make that mistake!

Farmer Jimbo · November 25, 2001, 20:36

My goodness! Look at the scope of this project!:

http://translate.google.com/translat...3.de%26hl%3Den

What a shame...

Hmmm. I appear to have pulled a cached version. This thing was huge! 14 different authours/contributors. They had the whole thing broken down by file and sub-section. If the above link is still broken, try doing a search on google for: translation.civ3.de

It should pull up one lonely entry. Click the translate button next to the entry and see if it's still in google cache. Otherwise I'll mail a copy to Mark or Dan and they can repost it if they see fit.

korn469 · November 25, 2001, 20:47

that is a bunch of crap

it almost makes me sorry i bought civ3 now

lawsuits certainly can't increase the fan base!

TCO · November 25, 2001, 21:09

Ravagon...they have to think economically. Screwing over distributors means they end up losing since the distributors wo't push product.

TCO · November 25, 2001, 21:11

One question I have. Is this a true issue of Infogrames losing money overall?? Or just an issue of which subsidiary gets credit for the sales?

Nemo · November 25, 2001, 21:12

instead of Infogrames causing grief for people who are merely trying to help others. (which, they could have at least just sent them a damn e-mail asking to stop, no lawyer needed!) what they NEED to be doing is answering my damned technical support emails! I have sent 3 without any response. in my last one I stated that this games is being refunded on Tuesday, if I don't get responses by this monday. but this nonsense just shows how utterly stupid and anti-consumer Infogrames really is. if they keep this up I'll be warezing ALL infogrames (not firaxis, they seems like they are trying, despite the fact that their hands are tied, and they are a much smaller company, too). if they want to translate the files, then so be it. its not like they are selling the files, or decompiling the game to do so (its all in text files), all the people that use this translation ALL have to buy the game, its not going to decrease the amount of software piracy or anything, its not going to effect sales. and if it does effect sales, then that means that the 'localized' versions will be higher priced, which is nonsense.

see, what I think infogrames is trying to do is this: by march the US companies will be selling this POS game for $19.99. so, as the US prices decline, they can continue the $40 sales by selling 'localized' and MP versions, then localized MP versions. this will continue to have this games selling for $40 for the next year, instead of just 6 months. it is a scheme, a scheme that if you or I were to do, would be considered illegal, and have criminal charges brought against us...but this is Infogrames, who probably doesn't pay more in taxes per year than my dog.

Wernazuma III · November 25, 2001, 21:24

Now that's a real shame!

I mean those guys were responsible enough to contact Firaxis and Infogrames and what do they get? A 500$ bill from the lawyer!

Couldn't Infogrames be nicer? Why shoot with cannons on flys? This makes no sense! Why did they sue?

This is no way to treat fans! Especially when you rush out a game with the effect that it is a)buggy and b)ships to your country not inyour own language. I'm so annoyed that I bought the game, I wish I had pirated it (though it IS a great game and I generally don't pirate)!

ravagon · November 25, 2001, 21:55

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
Ravagon...they have to think economically. Screwing over distributors means they end up losing since the distributors wo't push product.

True indeed but the ability to mail order English versions means that the distributors marketing base is smaller than they think. A 3 month+ wait for German fans is an awful lot... especially as a fair number speak passable English anyway.

As a matter of interest does anbody know as a rough figure the proportion of English-language computer games translated into German/other languages?
If this is fairly low while the number sold (in English) is still high it may make for some interesting debate to say the least.

TCO · November 25, 2001, 22:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Nemo
instead of Infogrames causing grief for people who are merely trying to help others. (which, they could have at least just sent them a damn e-mail asking to stop, no lawyer needed!) what they NEED to be doing is answering my damned technical support emails! I have sent 3 without any response. in my last one I stated that this games is being refunded on Tuesday, if I don't get responses by this monday. but this nonsense just shows how utterly stupid and anti-consumer Infogrames really is. if they keep this up I'll be warezing ALL infogrames (not firaxis, they seems like they are trying, despite the fact that their hands are tied, and they are a much smaller company, too). if they want to translate the files, then so be it. its not like they are selling the files, or decompiling the game to do so (its all in text files), all the people that use this translation ALL have to buy the game, its not going to decrease the amount of software piracy or anything, its not going to effect sales. and if it does effect sales, then that means that the 'localized' versions will be higher priced, which is nonsense.

see, what I think infogrames is trying to do is this: by march the US companies will be selling this POS game for $19.99. so, as the US prices decline, they can continue the $40 sales by selling 'localized' and MP versions, then localized MP versions. this will continue to have this games selling for $40 for the next year, instead of just 6 months. it is a scheme, a scheme that if you or I were to do, would be considered illegal, and have criminal charges brought against us...but this is Infogrames, who probably doesn't pay more in taxes per year than my dog.

Nemo,

I agree that they should have sent a letter or called instead of going to a lawyer first. I really doubt that this guy will have to pay the $500. That is just Infogrames trying to be heavyhanded. The guy should just write back and say that he will shut the project down if Infogrames stops the lawyer. After that he should just shut the project down and ignore any lawyer threats. Noones going to come after him for $500. And they don't have a case.

You are quite within your rights to stop buying Infogrames games if you don't like their manners. But Warez is piracy. What that says is that you DO want the game...you just won't pay for it. It's like saying I shoplift crapy stuff only.

Infogrames is within their rights to launch the product at different times in different markets. And I agree with your analysis of the financial rationale for their actions. This is not "bad". They need to make monye to stay in business. Several software shops have been lsoign money lately.