German release/translation gaff

[Hoek]

I think that Firaxis should create a special version for German players which include a new unit called 'InfoGrames Lawyer'

I don't understand this...the German legal system does not allow people to consult with their lawyer before admitting guilt on court-admissable material? Not only is Infogrames whack, the German legal system is whack too.

[WyattMax]

Thats not the problem. Of course he got time to consult his lawyer, however, his lawyer is currently in vacation , so he asked infogrames for a little more time.

Infogrames rejected his offer, either sign now or sign not at all.

However, so far as i understand it, Infogrames wants to hold him responsible for any lost revenue that may have been created because of their translation.

That this is totally inacceptable i won't have to tell you. The translation is on the net, you can find it on edonkey, bearshare, everywhere. The financial consequences for his family if he signs it, could be dramatic.

[dr.charm]

Say hey,

Shouldn't we all start our own lawsuit against Infogrames, for listing things on the box which are not included inside the box? What exactly does the blurb on the box say about the editor, I can't remember.

This is half-joking

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by dr.charm
What exactly does the blurb on the box say about the editor, I can't remember.

Translated from Swedish:
A game editor is included, where you make your own scenarios, maps or change the rules exactly as you want.
The Danish begins with
Game editor included, which makes it possible to change everything in the game...
And the Norwegian says
Now also with a "game editor", which lets you change everything in the game – map, mission and rules.

[dr.charm]

Well then, a pretty clear case of false advertising, right? I mean if Infogrames feels that it can go after these poor sods in Germany, why can't we go after them for false advertising? Now all we need is someone to take the case on, pro bono

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

[General Ludd]

The ignorance astounds me.

This fan was making something that infogrames had plans to sell. It is the equivalent of leaking a beta out before release

[TCO]

Originally posted by Nemo

you are quite right in your reasoning. however, at least this time, i was questioning their consumer relations, not the quality of their product (thats in other threads ). so, if they sold a game that was $20 but came with no support, and was half-@ss, but was a good game (which they do make good games), then i would buy it, cause, well, you get what you pay for. but for $65(!) I expect at least tech support, and to not have sooo many issues.
they are just so anti-consumer (which this lawsuit emphisizes), why spend more than the game is worth, since you get nothing for it, other than an unfinished game with no support? if i could find infogrames games that are similar to Civ3 for $20, i'd buy it, but it doesnt work that way...its either pay $50 or piracy, so given those choices, i choose justified piracy. and since i just spent about 36 hours beta testing Civ3(after that i gave up, which is why i am in the forums now) their game for them (yes, my emails were that informative, and I even sent them fixes when i found them), and i get paid $25 and hour as a student, that means i can get about $650 worth of games for free, and since each game is $50, then i get about 13 games that i can get for free, for my services. my last email even asked for a discount on my next infogrames games for all the issues this game has...maybe i should just send them my lawyer and demand my repayment next time

Nemo...you left out the option of "do without the game". This is what you should do rather than piracy OR paying an amount you feel is unjustified. (It's like saying...I shoplift the overpriced stuff only...fair priced stuff I buy.)

Obviously you are being cute with your comments about payment for time spent playing civ3. They have no obligations here. (elsewise...I'd just play bad games all year round and ask for a 50K/year salary for it....that's what 25/hr equals.)

[TCO]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
If a translation by fans takes place, this would cause the number of "Translated Civ" sales to drop. However, this would be offset exactly by an increase in sales of the US version. If the infogames business model is too out of date to take advantage of this situation, then they will and should suffer a loss. It balances out. Perhaps it could even save the time of the guy who is sitting at his terminal, feeding in lines of Civ 3 text into babbelfish...
Same company, practically the same product, but causing a massive public relations fiasco.

2 issues:

1. The English version may be selling cheaper than the German one.
2. The distribution channels in GE may lose some "scale".

[TCO]

true, but it is not just a matter of different markets. its also a matter of making a statement that you can only buy the game for your country, and your screwed if you cant speak english, and your screwed if you try to make it understandable. its like nauthorized country codes for DVD's (which, imo, is a crock of sh-t to begin with). and its also a matter of releasing the other 1/2 of the game that they promised, just for more money. (MP) they originally said MP was included, and even took orders for this game while the inclusion of MP was posted onthe official website. so, i am sorry, but this is bad.

It doesn't matter how many curse words you put there. If they want to control release in different languages they can.

The MP issue is a seperate issue and the only people wronged are those who ordered the game and then didn't know about the MP change. It has nothing to do with the Germans...or with you.

[Palpatine]

Therefore I think this action had another background. IG did not take the translation project seriously. Now it put out, however, that the translation gets on very rapid and is likewise very professional. How looks that if a few fans get the translation clearly faster and better than themselves? !? I think that was the true motivation to stop the projekt for IG.

I mailed them my opinion with some nice words muhahahaha. Maybe i get a mail from their lawyer too *g*.

Palpi

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Funny how Dan from firaxis will wash his hands of this one or just plain avoid it...I think civ3 is great and will get better with modding, but this is almost in spite of firaxis and infogram.

Well, considering that:

A) The only substantive information I know about this is what's been posted here, and

B) To my knowledge it has nothing to do with Civ3.com, Firaxis.com or any of Firaxis' web presence,

There is nothing I can really say or do to ameliorate the situation. I don't know where the idea came from that I'm some omnipotent demigod who knows all and can make things right with a wave of my hand, but I'm here to tell you it just isn't true. If it was, I wouldn't be in the doghouse with my wife so much, that's for sure.

I comment and/or assist in threads where I have knowledge of a topic and the ability to help, and don't in threads where I don't/can't. I hope you can understand and respect that.

Dan

[dr.charm]

Dan,

Do you have knowledge of when the first patch will be released then? Oh, and the ability to tell us?

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

[Farmer Jimbo]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS

I don't know where the idea came from that I'm some omnipotent demigod who knows all and can make things right with a wave of my hand, but I'm here to tell you it just isn't true.

Excuse me, I have been sacrificeing one virgin goat every day for the past 14 days in your honor. Color me "embarrased"!!!

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Farmer Jimbo


Excuse me, I have been sacrificeing one virgin goat every day for the past 14 days in your honor. Color me "embarrased"!!!

No need to be, that didn't work for me either.


Dan

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by dr.charm
Dan,

Do you have knowledge of when the first patch will be released then? Oh, and the ability to tell us?

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

I don't know for sure but we should be getting close. It will cover quite a bit of ground, so please be patient..


Dan

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
I don't know for sure but we should be getting close. It will cover quite a bit of ground, so please be patient..


Dan

You will not fix the bugs with sea and air then
(As the last settler on a boat thing)

[CodeArn]

In the US copyright laws allow fair use...modifying software like we do for Civ3 and other games is something that companies always claim the right to prohibit in liscencing agreements, but is one of those things thats sort of up in the air as far as legality is concerned...you'd have to ask a lawyer (I'm not quite there yet) to be sure, but I believe that whether the modification of a program violates fair use hasn't been tested yet because courts and companies keep finding ways to dodge the issue every time it comes up.

I have no idea what the situation is in Germany. It may be that modification of the software is explicitly illegal, and even though Firaxis is an American company and Infogames is British (? - I'm not sure on that), German law would apply.

So it may be that it is legal/quasi-legal for us to produce mods in the US, but illegal there. Which makes you think, what if the translation were being produced here?

[Oncle Boris]

Originally posted by wervdon
I don't know what the relation between firaxis/infogrames is, but id find it highly amusing if they dumped them for their next title ;P Its not like they couldn't get just about any publisher they want, assuming they are the ones who hold all the copyrights and infogrames doesn't own all their stock Course business isnt my speciality, so I could bt totally off on how those things work. It does clearly seem to be a case of a good developer, really lousy publisher though.

The fact is that Infogrames is now part of Hasbro, which owns the rights to the Civilization III name (since they bought MicroProse a while ago)

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
The fact is that Infogrames is now part of Hasbro, which owns the rights to the Civilization III name (since they bought MicroProse a while ago)

actually, Infogrames owns what used to be a part of Hasbro, Hasbo Interactive(HI).

HI owns the civilization name rights....

[Nemo]

Originally posted by GP
It's like saying...I shoplift the overpriced stuff only...fair priced stuff I buy.

Actually that is what I am saying. Look, as a John Doe consumer, you or I have absolutely no power to win a debacle with a gaming conglomerate in court. Not only that, but the US court history shows that they tend to side with the company rather than the consumer. So there is no way to win this legally, even if I had the money. Face it, we are in a capitalist society that squashes every consumer, and downsizes its staff any chance they can get, without any quorums. So, if this is the only way to 'speak out', the only way for them to hear John Doe (since they obviously don't respond to emails) ...well, so be it.

Obviously you are being cute with your comments about payment for time spent playing civ3.

actually, I am being cute with most of what I say as I look at my stack of games, not one of them is pirated...why? ...because if I don't like the 'demo' I don't play it. If I like the 'demo' I buy it. (I mean, it's not the programmers I am mad at here, it is the corporation for being a bunch of uncaring winnies, so i am morally divided...how to give the programmers their money for their hard work, without buying the crap that the corperation pushes out the door.) I'm just infuriated by the fact that infogrames produces a game without any concern for ripping off the consumers, but then complains about it when some one rips them off. They are a bunch of hypocrites, and that's what pisses me off the most.

They have no obligations here.

If you mean no obligation to pay me...of course they don't. If you mean no obligation to produce a product that works and then charge full price for it, I disagree.

[Nemo]

Originally posted by GP
It doesn't matter how many curse words you put there.

umm, there was one, which i self editted, which was part of a phrase, grow up.

If they want to control release in different languages they can.

that depends on the manner in which they do this.

The MP issue is a seperate issue and the only people wronged are those who ordered the game and then didn't know about the MP change. It has nothing to do with the Germans...or with you.

actually they are all tied together. MP (for the preorders) and my technical support where included in the price of the package, as was a working game. as with the Germans, it is not that far off either. their is no trade embargo between US and Germany. If the US game is $50 and the local german release is $50 you have to buy ONE of the two versions. now, what difference does it make which one you buy? infograme will get their money either way. its not llike they were selling the mod. there have been MANY mods created using the editor, editing text files and editting graphics files. they have not sued any of those people. and the german mod is nothing more that editing text files. if they decompiled the game to do this or reverse engineered the program, i could see, but that is not the case. so i think that the fact that these people were singled out and are now in an unnecessary legal bout (i mean a nice email requesting them to stop would have done it...and that is essentially free for everyone, except maybe 5 minutes to type and send) is how they TOO were wronged, just like ME and just like the pre-order people for MP.

[klesh]

Originally posted by MarkG
actually, Infogrames owns what used to be a part of Hasbro, Hasbo Interactive(HI).

My freind Aaron actually got laid off from Habro when Inforgrames took them over.




-FMK.

[napalm010]

I find some of the views expressed in this thread rather interesting. This in legal terms does NOT apply to just this translation project. It applies to any modification of the retail game in any means, however slight.

What is to stop them in 2 months from suing a modder for adding a civ or unit to the game? The EULA does not say any modifications are property of the developer/ publisher. Which was the case for Fallout Tactics. Modding was encourged and legally allowed. But they held the right to use the modded material in any patches/ addons sold later.

All they would have to say is we were working on adding that civ to a addon to be sold later. Bam u now have a legal suit and legal costs for doing a mod. Or how about u create a new unit? Same response from the company and BAM, legal costs are your gift for being a Civ3 fan.

Lets not stick to adding something to the game. U just modify a unit. Think the cruise missle should have bigger range? Maybe other people like that idea too. Now lets say u change it and post it to a website or forum. All the company needs to do is point to the EULA. BAM, thanks for trying to make Civ3 better. Here is your lawsuit. Oh and we think u should pay for the priviledge to be bent over by our company in court.

The EULA did not worry me at first. That phrase is in a lot of games that are modded by their fanbase at great length. But never have i seen a company willing to sue over a free mod. This is one game I will never mod for anyone else besides myself.

And yes I will continue to buy a Civ4 etc... But I guarantee it will be a few months after its made and for 15-20 dollars and NOT 40 after its release. Thats my 2 cents on this lawsuit.

[yin26]

Precisely. For the less *ahem* observant poster above who suggests our worry about this is 'ignorant,' please wake up.

The ignorance astounds me.

Yes, indeed it does.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
My freind Aaron actually got laid off from Habro when Inforgrames took them over.

perhaps he was working on Hasbro Interactive (electronic games subsidiary) and not on (main) Hasbro?

[joker_civ3ger]

if anyone should be in the need of this civ III translation, look here: ht*p://www.geocities.com/civ3ger/
it's the latest german translation patch for civ III.
go, get it!

[yin26]

We have logged your IP. Hope you have $500 burning a hole in your pocket. Oh, also: Bring a pen. You're gonna need to sign something soon.

Love,

Infogrames

[joker_civ3ger]

a pen? oh sure, i will sign a license to kill you! FU!

regards,

joker

[yin26]

Your abusive language just got you another Cease and Desist order. That's $500 more out of your pocket.

Care to go for $1,000 big guy?

Love,

Infogrames

P.S. Check your mail around Thursday.

[joker_civ3ger]

tell me what you want from me. i have the right to post here what i want. if this has to be censored, that's a prob of the admin not yours!

btw: the site isn't mine
watch your ass..

regards,

joker

ps: look at the german civ forums, they all hate you!!