German release/translation gaff - Page 5

yin26 · November 27, 2001, 05:23

We at Infogrames are all very saddened to see you so openly aiding in an act you know to be illegal. Standing next to me is our Head Lawyer, who has now told me to advise you not to post here any further as it might incriminate you further.

Trust me, this whole process hurts me more than you might imagine. I love all our gamers, even the ones, like you, who intend to do us harm. I hope you will pay your $1,000 promptly and sign the Admission of Guilt papers without a fuss, as this might go in your favor when the judge determines final damages that you will have to pay. At this point, it looks like your share will be a percentage of $500,000, which could easily run you into several thousand dollars unless you start posting apologies and editing out the thieving in your earlier post.

Of course, the choice is yours. Choose wisely, Mr. Gamer.

Yours,

Infogrames

kittenOFchaos · November 27, 2001, 05:33

Quote:

quote:

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Funny how Dan from firaxis will wash his hands of this one or just plain avoid it...I think civ3 is great and will get better with modding, but this is almost in spite of firaxis and infogram.

Well, considering that:

A) The only substantive information I know about this is what's been posted here, and

B) To my knowledge it has nothing to do with Civ3.com, Firaxis.com or any of Firaxis' web presence,

There is nothing I can really say or do to ameliorate the situation. I don't know where the idea came from that I'm some omnipotent demigod who knows all and can make things right with a wave of my hand, but I'm here to tell you it just isn't true. If it was, I wouldn't be in the doghouse with my wife so much, that's for sure.

I comment and/or assist in threads where I have knowledge of a topic and the ability to help, and don't in threads where I don't/can't. I hope you can understand and respect that.

Dan

Well Dan...you are main contact that "I" for one have with firaxis etc (infogrames never respond to my nice e-mail...one of them auto-replied me

...they are all A.I governors at infogram) and that if I provoke you enough you may bash some heads together at work and get things sorted.

Firaxis and Infogrames are partners in the civ3 project so I'm pretty sure that Firaxis can make high-level representations if they are so inclined. Alot of us are annoyed at certain "let-downs" especially by infogrames...I hope if you ever embark on another project that you won't use infogrames as your publisher...

P.S you are too modest, you ARE god

joker_civ3ger · November 27, 2001, 05:39

2 yin26: ok, just tell me your address..

kittenOFchaos · November 27, 2001, 05:39

You know they are getting tough when they try to get you to payup via e-mail...the tv licensing people send a man with a big net...

yin26 · November 27, 2001, 05:46

joker_civ3ger:

Sadly, this will cease to be a joke when the legal papers are served to you within a few days. Sorry, bud. You made your bed. Hope you can pay the fine otherwise it's jail time.

Infogrames.

joker_civ3ger · November 27, 2001, 05:57

2 yin26: stop ****ing over your crap posts here and get a life!

yin26 · November 27, 2001, 06:14

Quick question: Would you actually like to see the food you are stealing from our mouths?

Here's my address. Come see it, tough guy:

417 Fifth Ave.
New York, NY 10016
Tel: +1 212-726-6500

Fredric Drum · November 27, 2001, 06:18

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

True indeed but the ability to mail order English versions means that the distributors marketing base is smaller than they think. A 3 month+ wait for German fans is an awful lot... especially as a fair number speak passable English anyway.

As a matter of interest does anbody know as a rough figure the proportion of English-language computer games translated into German/other languages?
If this is fairly low while the number sold (in English) is still high it may make for some interesting debate to say the least.

Hi!

I don't know what percentage of games are translated, but I do know that some games are released in different languages at the same time. I've been involved in the translation of some games lately.. and they have not first been published in English and then the translated version. Sure, CIV3 has a lot of text in it... but they really should have started translations earlier. Sounds like Infogrames woke up on US release date thinking... "hey, shouldn't this game be translated? Forgot all about it!" *infogrames guy rushing to the phone to call a translation agency* "hey, can you translate 200 000 words by tomorrow? ... No? Day after then? ... No?"

Hehe... just couldn't resist.

In fact I was toying with the idea of translating the game into Norwegian just for fun.. as I don't suppose it will be translated officially?? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. Guess I would have to end up paying for the privilege anyway.... uh!

Word of advice to Infogrames (as if they'd read this): Please let the translators actually PLAY the game! That's how you filter out all those embarrassing mistakes... I know that not all games publishers do this.

Fred

Martinus · November 27, 2001, 06:29

I was so far very pro-Firaxis, but on this I have to agree with Yin. Even if Firaxis or Infogrames didn't want these guys to translate the game, this is a disgrace to resolve the matter like this!

I also participate in the Europa Universalis forum, and contrary to Firaxis, Paradox (the EU producer) takes every pain to make the co-operation with fans extensive.

Not only the whole Europa Universalis 2 creation forum was hosted by Paradox, with constant input for players etc., the game was beta-tested by fans and many descriptions in it were contributed by fans.

In the credits of EU2, Paradox thanked fans for the input. (It is not a big deal, but a nice touch)

Hell, 6 days after the game was released, the guys from Paradox supplied a patch which fixed the bugs that were not discovered during the beta-testing (and these were not feature-not-working bugs, but AI bugs).

madmario · November 27, 2001, 09:53

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
there are absolutely no problems with maps, scenarios or mods

Why Markos? What's the legal difference between modding a (supposedly substandard) translation for the game before one is officially released, and modding a WWII scenario for the game before one is officially released (in an expansion)? Or, better, modding new dialoge (wow these guys are boring the 83rd time I play this game) before an expansion comes out that does the same thing (which is, frankly, what Kai and his crew were up to).

I may be too alarmed, but really, this act should make all moders think twice or three times less they want the very friendly letter to crunch their christmas. Or, will someone from Firaxis or Infogrames tell me to chill out please.

-mario

MarkG · November 27, 2001, 10:28

Quote:

Originally posted by madmario
Why Markos? What's the legal difference between modding a (supposedly substandard) translation for the game before one is officially released, and modding a WWII scenario for the game before one is officially released (in an expansion)

i'm not fully aware of thelegal differences between a translation and a scenarios or a mod with new graphics. i know very well though that firaxis welcomes the creation of maps, scenarios and mods. i'm also pretty sure than an infogrames marketing director would care much more about a translation patch availiable 4 months before the official translation than about a map of germany...

dr.charm · November 27, 2001, 12:44

I thought that in order to protect a copyright or trademark, one had to be seen making an effort to actually protect it. So what this would mean is that by allowing some mods to be okay, and others to be grounds for legal action (because that's all the translation is - a mod), Infogrames has in fact shot itself in its legal foot.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

madmario · November 27, 2001, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
i'm not fully aware of thelegal differences between a translation and a scenarios or a mod with new graphics. i know very well though that firaxis welcomes the creation of maps, scenarios and mods. i'm also pretty sure than an infogrames marketing director would care much more about a translation patch availiable 4 months before the official translation than about a map of germany...

My unspoken point was that I don't think there is a legal difference, and if there was I doubt a judge or a jury of non-geeks would understand it either, even in Germany.

And, even if Firaxis is supportive, here we have a multiheaded hydra striking out, biting first and asking questions later (did they even give the guy a phone call first?).

Also, your scenarios aren't parallel, Markos. Would they care about a (less professional) WWII scenario released a few months before an "official" WWII focused expansion pack? What about a mod that added five new civilizations 2 financial quarters before the release of an expansion pack that did the same (albeit 2 civilizations were different). What if this mod wasn't compatable with the expansion pack? There is no line. Whatever courteous line in the sand existed before has been blown away.

We have no public word from Firaxis reassuring anyone at this point. Even if they did, one hydra head may bite the one that bit kai, but kai (and the community) is still bit.

-mario

MarkG · November 27, 2001, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by madmario
And, even if Firaxis is supportive, here we have a multiheaded hydra striking out, biting first and asking questions later (did they even give the guy a phone call first?).

Also, your scenarios aren't parallel, Markos. Would they care about a (less professional) WWII scenario released a few months before an "official" WWII focused expansion pack? What about a mod that added five new civilizations 2 financial quarters before the release of an expansion pack that did the same (albeit 2 civilizations were different). What if this mod wasn't compatable with the expansion pack? There is no line. Whatever courteous line in the sand existed before has been blown away.

We have no public word from Firaxis reassuring anyone at this point. Even if they did, one hydra head may bight kai and another head may bite that head, but kai is still bit.

it's obvious that i cant comment on what the people at infogrames are thinking, since, well, i dont know what they are thinking

but i can safelly tell you that all the availiable factions created by people for smac didnt harm at all the sales of smac-x, just like all the fan-created civ2 scenarios didnt harm the sales of the civ2 packs(in fact they kept the community alive and waiting for scenario packs, and some of them were part of the packs, making money for microprose). and firaxis knows all this very well.

now, firaxis coming out and assuring everyone that there are no problems with mods and scenarios while the legal issue goes on(btw, can any german-speaking people check the infogrames.de forums or civ3.de for news?) would be kind of worthless. hell, even infogrames say that they care about the community and want to support fan projects

habitualuser · November 27, 2001, 20:43

I'm geek with too much time on my hands, and translating the game to Klingon... is this copyright infringement?

Or because they're not making a Klingon version and not losing and money is it ok?

Also if you make a mod, do you have to distribute the whole civiopedia or can you just include the changes? If you have to include the whole thing, wouldn't that be copyright infringement as well?? so much for making mods....

And firaxis' response is real great, "well it has nothing to do with our web site so....."

yin26 · November 27, 2001, 20:54

Yes, once again Firaxis has done an excellent job explaining itself.

madmario · November 27, 2001, 21:52

I agree with you about Firaxis in isolation, Markos. I just don't think anyone can, or should, trust Infogrames -- and because of their paired inability/whatever reason for inaction, Firaxis.

Sadly, friendly Firaxis -isn't- the one handing out early Christmas court-appearance-sign-now-or-be@$%&#'d presents.

I do disagree with you about a reassurance being useful. I don't think it is politco-economically viable. Certainly, any such public assurance could complicate Infogrames lawsuit. If it were genuine, it ould have to and only could. It would be exceedingly useful.

Of course people will make mods anyways. "That only happened in Germany after all. Not here. No way here."

yeeeah.

I think people should be quite careful until they are somehow officially reassured from Infogrames as to what IG will sue over and what they won't. Of course IG won't hem themselves in like that, so all modders basically do so at their own risk.

-mario

Dan Magaha FIRAXIS · November 27, 2001, 21:57

Quote:

Originally posted by habitualuser
And firaxis' response is real great, "well it has nothing to do with our web site so....."

Maybe I didn't make myself clear; I apologize if that was confusing. That wasn't any kind of official company response, it was mine, in response to people inquiring as to why I hadn't commented on the situation.

Dan

madmario · November 27, 2001, 22:32

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
Yes, once again Firaxis has done an excellent job explaining itself.

They're pretty much in the Kobayashi Maru.

-mario

MarkG · November 28, 2001, 04:16

Quote:

Originally posted by madmario
I do disagree with you about a reassurance being useful

and what could Firaxis say while the lawsuit is still going on?
"hey guys, we love it that you do all these maps and mods and feel free to do them, but you know, we have this partner who may act on his own and decide to go after you cause someone in their marketing department thought they are loosing sales" ?????
that wouldnt be very reassuring to me...

so unless the legal issue is settled(and in a positive way, e.g. Kai doesnt pay anything nor is he claimed responsible for any future sales losses), then any kind of assurement by firaxis (alone) that "everything is just fine" wouldnt make much of a difference.

bottom line, as a public issue, this was started by infogrames and can only end by infogrames.

yin26 · November 28, 2001, 04:25

Here's what Firaxis should do:

"Hey, did you hear about what Infogrames is doing to Kai, that guy in Germany?"

"Yes, I'm on the phone right now, those Infogrames bastards: 'Um, yes, hello. This is Sid at Firaxis. Let me talk to the legal department handling Civ3."

"Legal Department"

"This is Sid. Hey, heard about the German thing. I'm not happy about how you guys did it, but let just clarify: What, exactly, will Infogrames let the public modify? You have set a very bad precedence for this Civ3 title, guys. Very bad. I want the fans to know what's o.k. and what's not from your legal departement."

"Well, Sid, [explanation]."

"Fax me that in writing please."

"Sure."

Next day, a complete explanation of what we can and cannot mod is posted on Civ3.com

Instead, Firaxis just pretends not to be involved. That makes them just as guilty in my opinion.

ColdFever · November 28, 2001, 05:33

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
bottom line, as a public issue, this was started by infogrames and can only end by infogrames.

Hi Mark,
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order". As an Apoloyton-Admin you may be interested to hear that I was not the only one to receive the order. Also our friends and webhosters from the biggest German Civ3-fansite received the identical order to remove all relevant data of the project. Those poor admins were frightened so much, that they finally signed a non-disclosure agreement to get out of this mess.

Since that day the mood in the german community is spoiled, as every fansite admin is also scared to receive mail from the lawyers if not behaving properly. So no more news on the killed project are posted anywhere and in the only relevant german Civ3-forum every thread regarding this "forbidden issue" is deleted or closed at once.

On advice of my lawyer I finally did also sign the order to protect me and my family to get out of the mess without further legal procedures. Because of this now I face a 10.000$ penalty for ANY modification of Civ3 or supporting them.

MarkG · November 28, 2001, 05:39

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
Here's what Firaxis should do:

...

Instead, Firaxis just pretends not to be involved. That makes them just as guilty in my opinion.

only thing, what you suggested for firaxis to do equals to firaxis NOT being involved in the making of decisions and Sid acting as an infogrames secretary. so if firaxis is pretending to not be involved, you're suggesting that they are not involved(but this time at a public level)?

somehow i would expect you to suggest that Sid should make a public demand for the removal of infogrames' legal troops from Kai's territory

MarkG · November 28, 2001, 05:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFever
Hi Mark,
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order". As an Apoloyton-Admin you may be interested to hear that I was not the only one to receive the order. Also our friends and webhosters from the biggest German Civ3-fansite received the identical order to remove all relevant data of the project. Those poor admins were frightened so much, that they finally signed a non-disclosure agreement to get out of this mess.

Since that day the mood in the german community is spoiled, as every fansite admin is also scared to receive mail from the lawyers if not behaving properly. So no more news on the killed project are posted anywhere and in the only relevant german Civ3-forum every thread regarding this "forbidden issue" is deleted or closed at once.

On advice of my lawyer I finally did also sign the order to protect me and my family to get out of the mess without further legal procedures. Because of this now I face a 10.000$ penalty for ANY modification of Civ3 or supporting them.

hi Kai, thank you for the information and the update

So, to clarify, you signed the order, payed the $500 legal fee, and under this agreement you are facing a 10000$ penalty for any further involvement?
And the same was done by how many more people?

ColdFever · November 28, 2001, 06:02

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
to clarify, you signed the order, payed the $500 legal fee, and under this agreement you are facing a 10000$ penalty for any further involvement?
And the same was done by how many more people?

The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

MarkG · November 28, 2001, 06:23

Quote:

Originally posted by ColdFever
The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

i see. thanks again for the information...

EEKthedog · November 28, 2001, 07:09

Every civ lover is saddened by this, and i am sure everyone wishes the best for you Kai, and the other guys who got involved in this too.

Now here's a question: Would Infrogames Germany lose more money if they let some guys make a translation, or lose more money now becoming well known as being bastards.

EEKthedog · November 28, 2001, 07:15

Oh, and i forgot to say: In my opinion the blame should be on Firaxis and Infrogames, especially the lack of communication concerning what is allowed and what isn't. This created the whole mess where the customers were the victims not knowing what is and what is not allowed to do.

If civ3 (firaxis) is so well known, advertised and promoted as being a mod-able game, and infrogames does not allow any of this it isn't hardly surprising some things will go horribly wrong.

yin26 · November 28, 2001, 07:32

Quote:

In my opinion the blame should be on Firaxis and Infrogames, especially the lack of communication concerning what is allowed and what isn't.

Exactly. Markos, take note. This is what I am saying. So what if Firaxis didn't make the decision, it is their duty and common sense to make some clarifications to the fans as to what can be safely done.

By their not doing that, they have dropped to one of the lowest levels in the industry, IMO. Frankly, I hope they go out of business soon. Won't likely happen, but I'd love to see it. Honestly. This is not me just shooting off my mouth. I'll celebrate the day Firaxis shuts its incompetent, arrogant doors.

Kai:

You should know, many of us here are very sad at all this. You have our support, whatever that means. Frankly, you guys in Germany should burn your disks and send them back to Infogrames in small coffins.

Kolyana · November 28, 2001, 07:37

So, let me get this right ... we can mod the game, but the German's can't?

Will Infogames be releasing this in the necessary files to make the distinction?

What will happen is an American based site encourages German modders to post there? Will Infogames then slap a writ on them also?

Is this set to spread?