German release/translation gaff

[joker_civ3ger]

edit by markg: thank you dangering this site...

[EEKthedog]

lol, he was just pulling your leg ya dummy

And quit the language abuse.


Honestly....you're really asking for a lawsuit now too ya know.

[joker_civ3ger]

I knew that he tried to fool me, I read ALL his posts in this thread before the first of mine. After I read the crap he has written I knew that he is a fake. He thinks it's cool, but for me it's just as lame as a lil child can be!

[yin26]

joker_civ3ger:

What's funny is that you DIDN'T get the joke at first or were just using bad language to make your own bad joke. For the record, I share your anger at Infogrames.

[joker_civ3ger]

believe me, i did get it, otherwise i would never say: FU!


next time just think about who is right: the fans or the game industry

[yin26]

"next time"? You say you've read my posts?! LOL!

[joker_civ3ger]

how sick must your brain be when you write this crap?:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yin26:
Quick question: Would you actually like to see the food you are stealing from our mouths?

Here's my address. Come see it, tough guy:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by ColdFever
The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

Ok, this put the final nail in the coffin of my future support by MOD of Civ 3

MarkG, I have enjoyed your (and DanQ) site for more of a couple of years. Usually I had liked a lot, sometime not, but I have a "positive feeling" with the site and its community in general.

So I hope you consider to shut down your file section: let's admit it , you are risking a legal action just for your support of the game, from the same people should award you two for yours efforts (and most of the game community, too).

I understand you risk to lost hits while removing mod/map files, but as the things are twisting you and everyone in Internet Game Community should step back from this kind of Civ 3 support.

Until Firaxis AND Infogrames clearly define what a fan can and what can't do with the game "largely editable" feature, I humbly suggest you to play the safe side.

Come on, it's only a game: it doesn't deserve a thousand of YOURS dollars just for the sake of freedom of speach or the right to squeeze more enjoyment from it with some modify.

On a side note, I want to support Dan Magaha in this particular case: please don't shot on him. Send message directly to Firaxis boss, not against someone who can't control this mess at all.

[yin26]

Adm. could well be right, Markos. If Infogrames wants to play these games, it will kill the community. Let it die. At least the mod part, I mean. Too bad, but why should you risk anything?

joker_civ3ger: For a guy with 'joker' in your name, you are decidedly humor deficient. Let it go, guy.

[krzysiek]

Originally posted by ColdFever


Hi Mark,
this is Kai Fiebach, the receiver of the "cease and desist order".
...
On advice of my lawyer I finally did also sign the order to protect me and my family to get out of the mess without further legal procedures. Because of this now I face a 10.000$ penalty for ANY modification of Civ3 or supporting them.

The whole story is paranoid, like a bad dream!
Kai, I hope they'll leave you alone.

Question to Firaxis and "BigBadCompany":
What additions/modifications to the game can we do without being treated as criminals?

[madmario]

Originally posted by Kolyana
So, let me get this right ... we can mod the game, but the German's can't?

I don't know why "we" can...

-mario

[madmario]

Originally posted by ColdFever
The legal fee was not $500, it was about $850. But Infogrames signaled to take over this amount for their lawyers to show goodwill. The identical amount of course I have to pay for my lawyer, according to the German table of lawyer fees. The other c&d-order to the fansite admins was replaced by a non-disclosure agreement after they fulfilled certain core demands.

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

Kai, my heart goes out to you, brother. You just followed the directions on the box.

Markos, maybe these updates are newsworthy? It's worse than even I thought.

-mario

[yin26]

What additions/modifications to the game can we do without being treated as criminals?

This is precisely what I said Firaxis should do for us AT THE VERY LEAST, yet even Markos here thinks this is somehow an odd request or something.

[EEKthedog]

To add it up some more,
This quote was posted in this thread before:

From Civilization III License AgreementOTHER RESTRICTIONS: You may not cause or permit the disclosure, copying, renting, licensing, sublicensing, leasing, dissemination or other distribution of the Software or the Documentation by any means or in any form, without the prior written consent of Infogrames Interactive. You may not modify, enhance, supplement, create derivative work from, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise reduce the Software to human readable form.

And now this: http://www.civ3.com/devupdate.cfm


Now an official statement from Firaxis/Infrogames would really be needed.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
This is precisely what I said Firaxis should do for us AT THE VERY LEAST, yet even Markos here thinks this is somehow an odd request or something.

my comment was referring to the time period that the legal issue was still open. now it is not, and things are of course different

[madmario]

Originally posted by MarkG
and what could Firaxis say while the lawsuit is still going on?
snip
so unless the legal issue is settled(and in a positive way, e.g. Kai doesnt pay anything nor is he claimed responsible for any future sales losses), then any kind of assurement by firaxis (alone) that "everything is just fine" wouldnt make much of a difference.

bottom line, as a public issue, this was started by infogrames and can only end by infogrames.

An action by Firaxis that said in no uncertain terms that the game was designed and intended to be modified by fans and these mods were to be distributed freely among fans, including text messages, would muddle any legal ground Infogrames had against Kai, and against anyone else. The issue would be in court (at least in an American court) that the consumer, average joe consumer, shouldn't have to differentiate between the publisher and developer, and could have been entrapped by one end and acted on my another. Of course, this is exactly why Firaxis can't/won't act (it would be very, very bad business, possibly devastatingly bad business, to not back up, or at least not challenge, Infogrames).

I'm not talking about an "everything's fine." I'm talking about spelling out what is cool and what isn't, and most importantly why the box and manual indicate that (this is of course least likely).

This whole matter is incredibly dumb. A most underwhelming start to CIV3.

-mario

[ScottVib]

The most interesting parts are the comments made by Firaxians in threads on this site saying "Hack away". What does that indicate?

[deanco]

Originally posted by Rasbelin

Just wondering how deep those discussions have been...
For me this looks more like a joke. But what are those "possibilities for co-operation"? An another way to say that "those fans can go to hell"?

Nope. The fans can do it for free, and Infograms saves translation costs. That's cooperation.

DeanCo--

[ScottVib]

Here is one of those quotes:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


I don't (and I doubt anyone else on the team does, either) take any of it personally. This is a game that is designed to appeal to a broad base of consumers, from casual gamers to RTS players who never really played TBS games, to diehard Civ players. Each group will have its own concerns, likes, dislikes, and so on. And it really is impossible to please everyone all the time, so if folks want to hack around and change things, I say go for it.

The purpose of our products are to entertain people, and nothing more. If folks get enjoyment by modding, hacking, or otherwise changing the game, more power to them.

Dan

Hope this doesn't get Dan in trouble the thread and the context is here: http://apolyton.com/forums/showthrea...highlight=Hack

Now if Firaxis employees are encouraging people to make changes that technically would violate the liscence agreement is that seen as giving permission? How does this fit in with what Infogrames is doing?

Just something to ponder.



-----
Yes I am a newbie

[madmario]

Originally posted by MarkG
my comment was referring to the time period that the legal issue was still open. now it is not, and things are of course different

I think the legal issue of the mods on this site and mods in general is still open.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by madmario
I think the legal issue of the mods on this site and mods in general is still open.

of course. if you read the latest news item, you would see that i agree with you

as for my original comment, i was referring to the issue between Infogrames and Kai

[Epigonoi]

Your heavy handed tactics apall me ... I'm sorry I bought the stupid game ... I love civ but I can be content with playing freeciv or any other variation - yes, you can go after the open source developers too, but that will just rail up the backlash against you even more ...

It irks me to no end to see the blatant abuse of IP and copyright like this - the electronic realm is a new and different world, and applying traditional industrial printing press paradigms to an entirely different model is absolutely absurd.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Publishers should die!

they are just an unneccessary overhead, and this what IFGM did is just unbelieavable.

They are allegedly protecting Sid's interests. For one Sid should have said something too if he could be bothered, but they and their intra-corporate interests, instead of being grateful for getting free help they come and slam the community straight in the face.

[madmario]

Originally posted by MarkG
of course. if you read the latest news item, you would see that i agree with you

I did notice. Cool! Thanks.

And though I have been coming at you somewhat here, I would like to say very much appreciate the work you do on this site, and have been visiting it for a number of years.

-mario

[Deathray]

Well, this sucks. In fact, I think someone should make Infogrames aware of this thread. I also think that Firaxis should dump Infogrames. Civilization 3 is a great game and definitely worthy to be the concluding part of the Civilization series, so Firaxis should just tell Infogrames to shove their precious franchise and go and get the Alpha Centuarii brand the recognition it deserves with a good sequel.

This sort of business practice is very low. The fact is that Infogrames are just trying to milk as much out of people as possible. I live in the UK and when I compare our retail prices with those elsewhere it sickens me. Telecommunications, electrical goods, software, food, everything is overpriced. Unfortunately most companies think of globalisation as just another tool to exploit, and not what it should be, which is a way for consumers and workers everywhere to get the best deals.

[Espejo]

Originally posted by ScottVib
Here is one of those quotes:



Hope this doesn't get Dan in trouble the thread and the context is here: http://apolyton.com/forums/showthrea...highlight=Hack

Now if Firaxis employees are encouraging people to make changes that technically would violate the liscence agreement is that seen as giving permission? How does this fit in with what Infogrames is doing?

Just something to ponder.



-----
Yes I am a newbie

I think these are very good comments. And yes I push this thread though it won`t be forgotten

[duuk]

You currently carry a software title "Civilization 3" which clearly states on the box that it includes an "editor which allows you to change ANYTHING". The publisher has since sued an end user for attempting to modify the game. As such, and as the editor does NOT allow "anything" to be changed, I would ask that you take action to protect yourselves from the publisher's errors and omissions. You, as a leading retailer of software (Best Buy and MediaPlay and FYE) could show that you support proper documentation of products which you carry, especially as your customers cannot return this product to the store due to copyright restrictions. Your help in this matter is greatly appreciated, and I trust that you hold truth in advertising to be as important as I do.

Eric S Johnson, Riverview, MI


-----

The above was sent to customer service for Best Buy/MediaPlay/FYE. I would encourage you to send similiar letters to other retailers. If you want to hit Infogrames where it hurts, hit them on the distribution end. If major retailers charge back their products to prevent them from being in a "truth in advertising" suit, IG will have a serious problem on their hands. After all, Civ3 isn't exactly flying off the shelves, so BestBuy doesn't lose much by dumping it, but DOES gain the ability to get a headline as a "leading protector of consumer rights".

Duuk

[krzysiek]

duuk, nice move!

[Obi Wan]

Originally posted by EEKthedog
Now an official statement from Firaxis/Infrogames would really be needed.

An official statement from Infogrames Germany was published on their website this morning: http://www.infogrames.de/news.php?NID=27

One of the sentences there is:
"Wenn nun jemand Pläne hat, Teile des Produktes zu verändern oder anderweitig zu verwenden, muss sich die entsprechende Person oder Gruppe von dem Inhaber der Rechte oder einer rechtlichen Vertretung (in diesem Falle Infogrames) eine schriftliche Erlaubnis erteilen lassen."

In english (sorry, if my translation is poor):
If someone has plans to modify the product or use it in any other way, this person or group needs to get a written permission from the owner of the copyright or his representative (Infogrames in this case).


So what? Do all of the people that publish MODs here need a written permission?

[krzysiek]

Now we can flood them with e-mails like:

"Can I modify strength of Privateer form 1 to 2?"