German release/translation gaff

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
translating is something completely different then modding btw.
don't by silly on that.

Please explain the difference to me. Pretend I am a judge, not a gamer. How is it different than, say, changing the text in the game to be more flavorful?


-mario

[madmario]

Originally posted by SKev
The German translation of the program is not a MOD...

The creation of a traditional MOD requires a measure of original “artistic” creativity by the author.

Have you ever tried to do a translation, of, say Beowulf?
How about Harry Potter?

Have you found a babelfish or machine translation to be inadequate?

My point is that translations DO require A LOT of artistic and creative energies.

Also, where does your definition appear in the legal text, anywhere?

Do you think a judge would believe your argument, based on what is written in the legal text and contracts involved?

thanks for your input...

-mario

[Robert Plomp]

Und Leute wie CyberShy haben hier eh keine Freunde

Simplified thinking: All things done by fans = good
all things done by Infogrames = wrong

lawsuit: fan = victim
company = hunter


I'm sorry that you dislike reality, and if you'd like to find your friends among surealists, go ahead. I won't be one of them in that case indeed.

Do you really think Kai Fiebach as to do that so that Infogrames (and Firaxis) image gets ugly?

that's not what I said.
What I said is that it's not the correct attitude.
Starting to yell and to treat. It's very imature and all that.
As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

I agree that translating civ files to german by fans would cause big damage to IG Germany. But acting as they acted is just Unnaceptable.

WHY ?
They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that. They didn't sue him for money or something like that. It would've been without any money problems for Kai, if he wouldn't have token a lawner. That's his fault.......

Please explain the difference to me. Pretend I am a judge, not a gamer. How is it different than, say, changing the text in the game to be more flavorful?

To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release. IN CASE I wouldn't 100% know what kind of scenario Infogrames would release in an x-pack, and I would create it the same way, I'm sure I would do an illegal thing as well.

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

[yin26]

Pathetic pandering. You make me ill. You miss the entire point. IG has said that they are 'forced' to 'immediately' protect Firaxis over copyright infringements. Hate to tell you, pally, but under that broad definition, they could easily sue your ass for doing a translation in your country, whether they have so far publically announced any plans to release such a thing themselves or not.

In fact, I encourage you to do so in order that you might wake up.

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release.

Why are you so sure, and where in the text of the game or the box is this distinction made clear? Why do you not appoach my direct question about flavour text and language and rather look at a clearer (ironically, more muddled) Mod scenario?

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

IG does not seem to agree with you. They want permission for any MOD.

ANY.

-mario

[greggbert]

Infogrames analogy with harry potter was very poor.

I think that a better analogy would be someone who volunteers to come to your house FOR FREE and take your copy of Harry Potter that you bought and hand write german translations of that book under the original text so that you can read it.

Or someone who reads a copy of Harry Potter to a blind person who bought the book.

Maybe they read it to him because it is not written in sign language and the "books on tape" version has not yet come out.

-Gregg Murray


PS: If you repost this excellent argument, you have my permission!!!!! Also you can transalte it into German or Arabic or any other freaking language you want.

[Farmer Jimbo]

Originally posted by CyberShy

As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

If you are served a notice/summons/legal whatever by a major coporation claiming infringment of copyright, and you don't retain a lawyer/barrister for advice, you should take a picture of yourself and submit it to goatse.cx

WHY ?
They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that. They didn't sue him for money or something like that. It would've been without any money problems for Kai, if he wouldn't have token a lawner. That's his fault.......

They did indeed sue him to cease and desist and threatened to sue for damages approaching 5 figures in american dollars.

To make it complete:
translation into a language that's scheduled to be released for money, that's what we talk about.

While that is the realistic description of the motivation, the technical language of the suit and subsequent public statements by Infogrames.de have a differnt meaning. They are asserting their right/power to enforce copyright on behalf of Firaxis. That means anything that modifies the orginal game in any way. They have stated that any such modification must be done with prior written approval. They have not mentioned any exceptions to that rule.

Kai wanted to release a product that IGGermany wanted to release as well.
When I make a scenario, there's no problem, since IG isn't going to release any scenario for money, and for sure not the scenario I'm going to release. IN CASE I wouldn't 100% know what kind of scenario Infogrames would release in an x-pack, and I would create it the same way, I'm sure I would do an illegal thing as well.

Again, Infogrames is reserving the right to sue you for modifying the game without their consent, period.

If I would start a dutch translation project, I'm sure there's nothing wrong since IG didn't announce to release a dutch version of civ3.

The fact that they have not announced a project to sell a Dutch localization has absolutely no bearing on the posistion Infogrames.de is taking. If you don't have their approval, you are violating the copyright of Firaxis, which they are defending.

And that's the difference, you can mod and change anything you want as long as IG didn't announce to release such a thing.

I'm sorry, but you do not understand the implications of the stance that Infogrames.de is taking.

[madmario]

Originally posted by CyberShy
As we know right now, he didn't have to pay any $ but only because he took a lawner........... it became expensive. Is infogrames to blame for that ?

Have you ever been involved in any kind of court case that threatened the financial well being of your family? They were going to slap him with financial losses, which could have been huge.

Nor did they give kai a friendly phone call, and say, "hey stop." They used a lawyer right off the bat. There is some kind of law in germany that requires attorneys to get equal pay, I believe, too.

I find this argument mildly insulting at one end, and classist at the other.

They only wanted Kai to sign a document in which he declared to not start a project like that.

Actually, ANY mod of civ3, I believe. not just "one like that."

They didn't sue him for money or something like that.

They would have if Kai didn't sign right away. No day in court nothing.

[Nemo]

SKev: so are you infogrames' lawyer? or an infogrames' marketing employee? Your speech and you registration seem ...how shall I say? ... a bit timely? (Nemo sits back and remembers the OS/2-MS Usenet bashings and praises by each companies employees)

So pretty much any mod maker who cuts and pastes graphics from other parts of the game, but does not create them from scratch, is not making a mod, but an infringement upon the copyrights. So, that brings us back to where you so diligently tried to stay away from...the translation takes more creativity and inteligence (see below), thus it should be considered more of a mod. whereas, many (not all) mods are mearly copy&paste's from other areas of the game, which would make them more of an infringement. so, i must say i agree with you logic, but disagree with its outcome.

I think madmario is pretty close there. You know how many translations there are for old texts? Like the Iliad? If I had a nickel for every different translation of that book, I'd be a very wealthy person. I translated it 3 times during my 4 years and 3 semester of Latin, and each time I translated them slightly differently. The translation of a language does take creativity and intelligence...it is not necessarily always an exact text from one language to another. In some languages this cannot be done even (I don't know if German is one of these or not).

[Executor]

I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

[Guildenstern]

Originally posted by Nemo

I think madmario is pretty close there. You know how many translations there are for old texts? Like the Iliad? If I had a nickel for every different translation of that book, I'd be a very wealthy person.

The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not. That is why anyone can play mozart without paying a liscence fee, and why anyone can translate aristotle, homer, or any other number of things in the public domain.

[Sparky]

OMG Yin, you make me ill. When I read you talking about a fan like that, I am glad you are no longer in the USA. What on earth has made you so bitter? Getting booted form the Air Force Academy? Speaking as someone who also had to leave his dream school I'm telling you: Get on with your life.

-------------------------------
Legal jargon shouldn't obscure the true points here or the pursuit of right and wrong:

-the community thrives because of the game's customizability.
-Modification elements were built in to the game.
-all owners of the Civilization francise have not, to my knowledge, ever objected to a user modification of the purchased product. The Microprose scenario packs even featured several user-made mods.
-In this case a fan was offering his services to Infrogrames and the Civ community, and did so knowing that a game text file was specifically "addressed to translators."
-Most people in an environment that harbors community modification would interpret an address to translators as encouragement (and therefore permission) to translate.
-his mod would only be useful for those who already had the game. Under no circumstances could the mod be used as a game in itself.

Let us examine the course of action Infogrames took, compared to what it could have taken:
-Infogrames immediatly escalated the situation into legal issues.
-Infogrames immediatly got a lawyer involved, an undertaking it could more easily afford than any teenager or twentysomething fan.

Instead, Infogrames could have:
-Written back a simple email declining the offer to help, and asking please not to modify the game.
-Heaven forbid!!! actually accepted the offer from its fan!

Let's remembr something. (Infogrames could stand to listen to this)
-the number one reason for Civ's success is its community.
-a successful game, supported by a mod community is not something a game publisher wants to ruin.
-even if the modmaker does not rant all over the fora, Infogrames has raised the question about whether any mods are legal. Since they have proven they they will take action and will cost infringers a minimum of $500 (a fee that might was well be $5000 to a teenager), they risk scaring away the mod community.
-I guerantee that in the modern age of computing, an action 3d-oriented market where TBS games face dwindling marketshare, Civ will fail without its fans. The mod community is that reason that Civ exists in the long run. Anyhting that destroys this community is bad, bad business.

Can Infogrames issue CDOs? Yes, they already have. But should they?

No.

No they should not.

There was several alternate courses of action Infogrames could have taken -- courses that would not break the preceedent for user modification, courses that would not financially and legally strike out at a fan, and courses that would not leave the mod community with fear of retribution.

I suppoert our friend and his endevours. He had no reason to believe what he was doing was wrong. Infograme's respone was far too serious.

[Jodo Kast]

Infogrames made the mistake of releasing Civilization 3 at different times, for the SAME PLANET.

The gamer or german has no input and no say over when Infogrames releases their game to the whole planet.

In this case, they released it in the US, untested, never-played, and seriously lacking in most departments. They need the money the Holidays generate.

Since we are living on the same planet, Infogrames has to get a clue. 1.) The Internet binds us together so schedule your time a little better with your german friends. 2.) Release a game early for one country and the rest want it, so IG has to 'fight back'

and 3.) They have no tact. I've played Civ3 with the money cheat and it's actually fun, but I want to delete the game.

And it's not the gamer's fault!

[yin26]

Sparky: LOL! You crack me up. I'm living a hugely successful and happy life, thank you very much. I'm just sick of watching certain posters here bend over backwards to help modders get sued. So I encourage him with all his clear wisdom to mod the game in his native language and watch the legal papers arrive.

[Sparky]

4 minute respone time. Not bad. So honestly, Yin what are your opinions?

Law aside, should players be able to modify the game?

Laws intact, should players be able to modify the game?

[yin26]

Hey, I'm about to head out for lunch, so I might be late on the next replies! LOL. Just kidding. God, most days my work doesn't keep me busy enough. I 'should' be using that time to study Korean more, but I digress.

My opinion has always been this:

First, communication is the beginning and the end. If you don't want certain things to be modded but other things are o.k., etc., then communicate that openly, professionally, promptly and productively. What IG did is an absolute low point in this industry, if you ask me. Even if I agree with their concerns, their lack of communication and then ensuing bullying deserves a Consumer Advocate group to get involved. Honestly, I think IG could be counter-sued for harrassment given the lack of proper communication on the issue.

That aside, modding will make or break Civ3 (and a ton of other games). And for Firaxis to remain quiet while IG puts a bullet in the head of modders (in Firaxis' name no less!) is akin to basically saying: 'We never really cared about this game or the fans in the first place. Let them get pounded legally for trying to make our half-wit product better.' Honestly, unless the fans here are given full reign to mod Civ3, it will die within a year. No doubts.

So I hope you understand my bitterness on the way this was handled. Do you yet see a statement of clarification on Civ3.com as to what can be safely modded? And what kind of nightmare is this that we now need to consult our laywers before trying to make a broken game better?

Either way, it's the lack of communication and ensuing arrogance/belligerance that honestly, truly makes me want to see the day both Firaxis and IG have to close their doors. Yes, I have a happy, good life. And yes, I want to see Firaxis and IG go out of business.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Kaak]

eek...

[Kevin Ar18]

Originally posted by ColdFever
...

Yes. the 10000$ penalty now is due for every MOD I would do of Civ3 or I would support or encourage to distribute.

Does this mean you can't create any MODs for Civ3 (like units, cities, terrain, etc...) or support them?
Or were they just speaking of translation MODs?

[Kaak]

i'm sorry, but this is the most rediculous thing i have ever seen. I think ig just doesn't know anything about civ. they don't know that its intrigue and lasting playability are based on fan mods. Firaxis knows this...too bad they don't communicate

Originally posted by MarkG
First of files, i dont think there is any kind of issue with the strategy forum

As for the files, we contacted Firaxis yesterday, sending them the url of the files forum and asking them to notify us if there is a illegal file.
We have not recieved any note from Firaxis or Infogrames that there is an illegal file on our site.

OPPS,

Isnt that the same thing that other site did? Just asking for it there MarkG.....

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Kevin Ar18


Does this mean you can't create any MODs for Civ3 (like units, cities, terrain, etc...) or support them?
Or were they just speaking of translation MODs?

It means that if IG happens to run out of money they can go out and hunt all the modders down and take away all their money because they cannot alter the game at all withouth infringing copyright.

FUKC INFOGRAMES! Just as well I got the game off Kazaa... and a ruddy game too!

[madmario]

Originally posted by Guildenstern


The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not.

Of course. Ostensibly, though, this game is designed to be modified however you wish. My objection was not in this area, but to the idea that translations had no artistic merit, and were somehow merely technical.

I actually study and deal with translations, so I had a bit of a personal beef here.

-mario

[Rasputin]

i beleive the analagy used above of translating a BOUGHT copy of a book into BRAILLE for the blind is a good one, why whould someone have t opay twice for the same thing. If Infogrammes wants to make more money charge for the Mods and maps people are making as that uses their game but adds to it. Whilst a translation is jsut the same game but in different language.

I dont beleive the yshould charge for any changes mind you , but I think that soon they will be wanting to release sceanrio disc and tthen they will clamp down on modders big time....

[madmario]

Originally posted by Executor
I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

Some people object to their methods here much more than their principle.

Some people object to how they are currently handling the issue.

Some people object to ambiguity of the legal language involved, including what is advertised vs the papers served.

None of this collides with your points, but they are valid reasons to severely criticise IG.

-mario

[Defkon]

i just bought civ3, and it's my first civ game, so i'm new here. This definetly caught my eye. I had no knowledge of the translation project before this, so i've got a couple of questions and concerns on the stance of "mods".

I've made "mods" for a number of other games, mostly First Person shooters, mostly the rainbow 6 series from redstorm, who have been rather large supporters of "mods". In fact many of the head project leaders of the retail game that (gasp) actually frequented their forums, actually provided help, advice, ect to me both via the board and email. Point is that never have i heard the redstorm staff take legal action against any of it's mod community. In fact most companies bend over backwards to aid good mods.

So i find this rather puzzeling that copywrite infringment is being lobied as a means to prevent a mod.

Legally i didn't quite see an issue about a translation project because i thought "well wouldn't they want their game to available to a larger market aka more $$" why wouldn't they want germans to play thier game?

The Harry Potter analogy was indeed a very poor one. You see, by translating the book, it means that you wouldn't need the book itself, that the translation was a "stand alone" product that would compete directly with the retail product. But a "MOD" by definetion NEEDS the original product in order to be operable. For example if you downloaded say the "counter-strike" mod for Half-life, it wouldn't be of any use to you unless you had already bought Half-life.

Now this project apearnetly does interfere with a something that infogames wants to sell. Honestly i'm not familiar with how international sales work for games, and i'll assume that different parts of a company sell the game to different regions. I would've figured that all the sales of a game would go to some central distrubiting thingy. But i guess that's not the case. Aperantly there's alot of middle men involved that all want a piece of the action and rather than each of them getting a "cut" of the pie, apearently they all have to fend for themselves.


My concerns as a possible modder are "just what's ok" where is the line drawn. We can say that this is an obvious line because translation isn't a "typical" mod, but scenarios, ect. Many companies usually make an "add-on" of some sort eventually like extra maps, or characters, but they don't go around attacking mods that make "maps" or other elements in general.

But if someone made a "MOD" that let you download the levels, weapons or something from say "blue shift" (a retail half-life add-on) for free then i could see how this could be considered an offense of Copywrite.

What the letter fails to do is to make the depiction of just what is considered a mod, and what's considered an infringment of copywrite. This is because they use an analogy to describe a legal matter. Analogy's are good for polotics because they let you have lots of "space" to backup if you need to change your tune, but they are not acceptable in legal matters. There needs to be definitive RULES in place, and not a "give us a phone call" before doing anything policy.

To a modder that type of policy is akin to (yes i'm using an analogy requiring a person to call his or her local and state police to ask them if it's ok to drive before they can go anywhere.

Now honestly i don't think there's a problem with the average joe making a mod that adds or changes units to something orginal, and if that mod does somehow tick off the company, the company should first ask that person not to make that mod, and EXACTLY what it is that they are taking offense to and how to rectifiy it. IF then after numerous attempts for the company to reach the person not vice versa go with out a resolution then there should be some legal action.

But going to a legal action right away is totally un-called for. To many, including myself going for your lawyer is the equivlient of pulling a gun on someone and enforcing your dictations by threat alone. To put it bluntly, it's not "civilized". And even if no financial attack was commited you still crossed a serious line, and apearently done so without much consideration.

Bottom line is: while although they were in the right to protect there assests as they saw fit, they did so in an improper manner, and will need to work hard on the PR end to reduce or eliminate the image of a "gun wielding hick" which they have labled themselves as.

[Red.Damage]

Originally posted by Executor
I completely agree with Cybershy. If a company is making a product, make sure you don't try to release the same thing. Normal mod makers have nothing to fear from Infogrames. They're not stupid and out to get all their fans, but they do need to ensure that money keeps flowing their way.

Well, they never wanted to release the whole game nor wanted they to sell the translation! Their translation was only helfpful and usable for someone who already bought the game. Furthermore they offered their translation to IG: If IG gave a certain (unknown) amount to a charity IG might have used the transaltion as they wanted.

And tell me one thing: Why does IG depend on selling german games? Why can't they agree with Firaxis on a basis like "games sold in Germany" (no matter what their language is)?

[Nemo]

Originally posted by Guildenstern


The difference is that the Iliad is in the public domain, where as Civ3 is not. That is why anyone can play mozart without paying a liscence fee, and why anyone can translate aristotle, homer, or any other number of things in the public domain.

yeah its public...but i was trying to say that there are so many different translations of it becuase translation is not definate, and is artistic depending on the interpreter the translation will differ. music notes are universal and are read the same everywhere (that i know of...but i am not big into music, so i could be wrong with my reasoning) so i dont think that is a fair comparision for anything other then the fact that it is public, thus free.

[Trifna]

I have made a thread out of it, so here is the thread back:


Quoted from Apolyton News which was quoting IG (Infogrames):

quote:

: If someone has plans to change or otherwise use sections of the product, the appropriate person or group of the owner of the rights or a legal agency (in this case Infogrames) must let themselves be given a written permission



I MAY have got all false, withmy English that isn'tperfect...
But let me look to this... So if we're 500 modders (and I guess we're more) we need to call them?? Did I got it right? This is like asking Starcraft mapmakers to call Blizzard each time they're drawing a map...

I guess they don't INTEND to use this against all modders, but it just could legally be done.

I know they're puting this to avoid anyone that would pass the limits (which I accept), but they should restrict this rule. For now, I wonder if they could ask for the right to take what would have been made by a modder by saying that it was made on their stuff and just use what the modder would have done and put rights on it... If they can do that, then I just say that their rule is not exact and should be tweakened...

Or, other way, they could give a list of things that they automatically accept. For exemple, changes made on government type files, or units, or else. Their main goal is to avoid someone that would give problems to oneof their productsby using one of their products.

[Robert Plomp]

I was the Vice President of The Riddler's Club (www.riddlersclub.com) for about 2 years. One day the pres and me got a notification from a lawner from the company that has copyright on "The Riddler" and he told us to cease using their products.

All we did was returning a question what he exactly meant.
we never heard anything anymore.

we could've done this as well:
1. hire a lawyer
2. treath the company
3. insult the company

but we didn't, and we didn't lose any money.
So far your assumtpions that I've never experienced something like this. THE difference is that we handled the incident with wisdom and respect to the company.

The editor is a part of the game, you can use a programm: THE EDITOR to change the game. That's something different then changing files with any external editor. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ?

I'm sure nobody will sue you if you change text files and so on, and I'm sure I won't be sued if I make a dutch translation of the game and spread it as a free mod. But I know that they are allowed to do in that case, but they just can't be arsed to.

But this time someone was going to release a german version of the game by altering game files WHILE they were going to release such a version themselves. Then they can be arsed, since they'll lose profit in that case.

If using the editor = changing the game
then saving a game = changing the game as well.

don't be silly.
Just stop with your "I hate IG thus everything they do is wrong" way of thinking.

And I simply have no respect for people that start to yell, insult and treath when things aren't going to way they expected.

[vihutuo]

IMHO changing anything with the editor is legal but changing any file directly can be trouble