Remove the Americans

[Gromit]

Shake hands Barnacle Bill?

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Gromit
It's possible I went a bit overboard. The point I meant to make (but kinda left behind), was that if the Americans deserve to be in (given that you could argue that they were an extension of sorts, of many European Civs and later the rest of the world), so then, do the Iroquois and the Zulus.

Shake hands Barnacle Bill?

Not exactly - it is not my intention to be contentious, but the Americans built cities while the Zulus & Iroqois did not.

BTW, the Zulu "city" names in the game are either place-names of places which were not cities or the names of cities in Africa never built or ruled by the Zulus.

ANY culture COULD have built cities someday, if left alone lone enough or given the right sort of contact with other pre-existing civilizations.

Only a handful of cultures invented cities all on their own - Egypt, Sumer (southern Iraq), and the Harrapan culture of the Indus Valley (in modern Pakistan) were the only ones to do so by 4000 BC. China did so a little later, but not by much (in Civ terms, given the length of early game turns in years, think of it as the Chinese settler wandered a couple of turns before planting that first city). Much later (into AD dates), the cultures of the central Mexican Plateau and the Andes did so. I think the most likely group in NA to have eventually done so would have been the "Mound Builders" in the SE, but the Iroquois are maybe a candidate. Neither group was left alone long enough, though.

A wider group of cultures built their own cities after contact with other cultures that had already made the leap. Greece, Rome, Persia, Arabs, etc... This also was the case with Ethiopia & various Islamic civilizations in NW Africa (Mali, etc...). This may have been about to happen in the SW US with the Pueblo due to contact with Aztec civilization to the south. They did not last long enough, though. A number of North American tribes could have done so if European contact had been less devestating - no plagues, less rapacious European expansion. Had the contact been limited to the way the French traded for furs (and no plagues), the various powerful groupings (including the Iroquois) may have built cities and become true civilizations. In fact, the Cherokee came very, very close before Andy Jackson got 'em - even their own Alphabet. That's not what happened, though.

Then there are those cultures which got their first cities by conquering somebody elses, some of which later built their own & some did not. This includes the English, Germans, Mongols, Turks, etc... The Bantu tribes (including the Zulus), in terms of technical & social development, were (when found by Europeans) about on par with where the above examples were when they came in out of the North Woods/Central Asian Steepes to pester civilization. Had the Bantus gone north instead of south, and earlier (their migration into what is now South Africa started about 1200 AD), they may have gotten the existing cities of North Africa instead of (or from) the Arabs. However, they moved south instead, into an area populated by people about on par with the Australian Aborigines, and made little progress until Europeans arrived.

Finally there are cultures which never built or conquered cities, but have them today courtesy of foriegn rulers that built them. All cities in southern Africa were built by (or under the direction of, at least) European colonists. The same applies to Pacific Islands (possibly except the Phillipines - I'd have to look up whether they had cities already when the Spanish got there). You can possibly look at France that way, too - the Gauls (pre-Roman Celtic people of what is now France) did not have cities until the Romans conquered them and built some. The Franks (a German tribe) then took those cities away from the Romans. The Franks were then assimilated by the Romanized Gauls, producing the French.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill

I think the most likely group in NA to have eventually done so would have been the "Mound Builders" in the SE, but the Iroquois are maybe a candidate. Neither group was left alone long enough, though.

Cahokia?

http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/...n/hik_stl2.htm

medicine.wustl.edu/~mckinney/cahokia/cahokia.html

www.siue.edu/CAHOKIAMOUNDS/

[Gromit]

cheers molly

Much later (into AD dates), the cultures of the central Mexican Plateau and the Andes did so.

?????
Monte Alban and Oaxaca, Zapotec - Founded 500ish B.C.
Tenochtilan, Aztec - Founded 150ish B.C. (eventually abandoned A.D. 800)

Finally there are cultures which never built or conquered cities, but have them today courtesy of foriegn rulers that built them

Does that include Rome?

[Oligarf]

So keep the discussion there please:America isn't old enough to be in Civ

[hacksaw]

UMMMM.... Just a note, The United States, (don't say America. The whole Western Hemisphere is America) does have culture. Jazz, country music, one of the most inventive societies, various pieces of literature (Gone with the Wind, Uncle Toms Cabin, Last of the Mohicans, Grapes of Wrath, the Poems Edgar Allen Poe and many many more), great paintings&painters (Hennery Ossaw o'Tanner, John Singer Sargent, Thomas Eakins, Winslow Homer, Edward Hopper, Jackson Pollock, Nancey Noel and many many more). And a short (in comparison to other nations, however if you really wanted to be a slicker, we could include colonial history which had a huge impact on our nation today) but rich history. We done things wrong, and we've done things right. However, no one can accurately say that the UNITED STATES lacks culture.

[Evil Robot]

but they all could talk together, live together and therefor they were more united than the americans and mexicans are today.

I don't know where you get the idea that Mexico is part of the US, because that's simply not true. And no, the peoples of the Holy Roman Empire could not live together. When your lord is having a war with the lord over yonder, you aren't going to move over yonder. The Empire was divided, culturally and economically, from the very start. Could this be the reason why it so quickly broke apart into various nations (Prussia, Austria, Bavaria, etc.) when the HRE was in a position of military weakness? I think so. (Note: For all intents and purposes, the Emperors from the treaty of Westphalia on did not have any sort of real, immediate control over their subjects.)

Therefore, although German provinces in and of themselves are older than the US, the concept of Germany AS A CIVILIZATION (i.e. as we're discussing it here) did not come around until the 1800s.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Gromit
O.K., that's a fair point. Especially considering that their history is a kind of 'chinese whisper' hisory, for want of a better analogy.

The situation is a little better than that.
The main historic events of the Iroquois confederacy, including all laws and treaties, were all recorded in Iroquois script. In addition, oral history of the Iroquois has been proven 100% correct when compared to written sources.
While the Iroquois had no large cities (too small a population for that), the size of Iroquois towns (up to 4,000 people) at the time of contact was comparable to that of European towns for that age.

[Caesar2760]

I guess it all comes down to what one would consider a city. Perhaps we should limit it to a large group of people (3000+?), living in sedentary housing, under some sort of local government which exercised control over all citizens, containing some non-residential buildings, and within which were performed religious, mercantile, and industrial actions. I guess I don't know the history as well as some of you, but I would venture that the Iroquois towns probably did not fill all of these requirements, but did fulfill some.

[orange]

Originally posted by Jason
I won't touch "do they belong in Civ" with an 80 foot pole

Why not. You wouldn't be alone. And it's been done, btw. I would say we (we=Iroquois should not be in the game) effectively won that debate.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Caesar2760
I guess it all comes down to what one would consider a city. Perhaps we should limit it to a large group of people (3000+?), living in sedentary housing, under some sort of local government which exercised control over all citizens, containing some non-residential buildings, and within which were performed religious, mercantile, and industrial actions. I guess I don't know the history as well as some of you, but I would venture that the Iroquois towns probably did not fill all of these requirements, but did fulfill some.

They did fulfill all of these requirements even before contact, i.e. before the start of their Golden Age.

[Fresno]

I've started a similar thread some time ago, and I wonder why this thread has been started while the other one is still alive. To go to the other thread, follow this link.

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Caesar2760
I guess it all comes down to what one would consider a city. Perhaps we should limit it to a large group of people (3000+?), living in sedentary housing, under some sort of local government which exercised control over all citizens, containing some non-residential buildings, and within which were performed religious, mercantile, and industrial actions. I guess I don't know the history as well as some of you, but I would venture that the Iroquois towns probably did not fill all of these requirements, but did fulfill some.

I think another key criteria is the degree of specialization. In a true city, you have a fairly high percentage of people who do something other than food production for a living - professional craftsmen, merchants, entertainers, scholars, etc... As societies progress, they fairly quickly acquire a professional priests and rulers (the later typically arising out of either the priesthood or war leaders), so those are not enough. By no means does a professional warrior class cut the mustard - some pretty primative societies have been based on a division of labor between professional warriors and those who labor to feed them. The key thing is to have professionals who, in Civ3 terms, are producing "commerce" and "culture" rather than food. Then you have a city, as opposed to a big village. I do not believe that the Iroquois or Zulus qualify. If anyone disputes that, please support it by citing publicly available sources.

[nationalist]

It is true that American Civilization has existed for a relatively short time, but I would argue that they deserve to be included just as much as any other of the included Civs. The Zulus only existed as a united people for less than a century. The same goes for the Aztecs. The truth is that America has been one of the most influential civilizations of all time. We pioneered modern democracy, perfected capitalism, introduced the information age, and have been the dominant force in world affairs since 1918. Our abscense from the League of Nations helped cause WW II. Our position in the cold war and leadership after the collapse of the U.S.S.R. has set the stage for the new international system. We are the leader of the world, and will continue to be for the forseeable future. We know next to nothing about the Inca and there has never been a unified African civilization, therefore it would be illogical to suggest removing the Americans in order to incorporate those civs. I advocate the addition of more civilizations ( Especially the Spanish, The Mongols, Vikings, and Celts!), but not at the cost of removing an existing civ. If you still insist on the removal of the Americans due to their relatively short time of existance, than I would suggest you seriously consider removing the Zulu and the Aztec.

[Panzer]

Hmm, strange that all my fellow dutchies seem to be anti-USA (in Civ3 terms of course). As far as I am concerned USA can stay in the game. They are just another nation about to be conquered by my glorious German empire!

[Dry]

Originally posted by nationalist
... and there has never been a unified African civilization

[just teasing]
On what continent do you locate Egypt Carthago ?
[/just teasing]

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Dry


[just teasing]
On what continent do you locate Egypt Carthago ?
[/just teasing]

You may just be teasing, but you touch on some serious myths that have cropped up in recent years. What most people mean by "African" is "Sub-Saharan African", or in American terminology "Black". Neither the Ancient Egyptians or the Carthaginians were such. The Carthaginians were Semitic squatters from Lebanon. The Egyptians were a more-or-less homogeneous mix of peoples who wandered into the Nile valley from East, West & South, and this is reflected in their language as well as the way they artistically portrayed themselves and their neighbors.

As to the contension that no "unified civilization" ever arose in Africa, though, that is quite incorrect. Ethiopia & Mali, to name two. The Zulus just don't happen to be one.

Again, America in or America out produces a distortion - you just have to pick whether you want your distortion in ancient times or modern. What is needed is an event engine so the Americans can be launched at the right time a la EU/EU2.

[LarryBernard]

Originally posted by pithorr
I vote for America.
However I hate American ignorance about Poland I cannot deny American civ is worth to be substantial one.
If anyone does not agree should rather turn his head around We all are sorrounded by American Civilization...

hey, Not ALL of us are ignorant of poland...

(( who should be in more then the french IMHO.. after all what have the french done anyway))

[Giovanni August]

Come on guys!
In a few time an exp patch will come out and if you can't stand them so badly just use another Civ!

I like the American civ! I found amazing to virtually kick the ass of the world's most powerful nation with my Roman Empire
But they deserve to be in the game exactly as many other civs, and certainly more then the Aztecs (i would use the Incas just to fill the empty spot in south America)!

Saluti

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by Oligarf
So keep the discussion there please:America isn't old enough to be in Civ

Originally posted by Fresno
I've started a similar thread some time ago, and I wonder why this thread has been started while the other one is still alive. To go to the other thread, follow this link.

Yep, no point for 2 separate posts about the same subject. Although that post is getting REALLY long and tedious. This is the first time for a few months I have wrote in this forum and the discussion is still going. Geez.... has any point not been repeated already?

Anyway the poll is nearly exactly the same as the other one.... perhaps better to make a poll asking for the nationality/cultural background of those who voted yes/no (just out of curiosity). (i want to know whether it is really mostly americans who voted yes/mostly Europeans who voted no as people have claimed)

[SieGermans]

"I've been playing civ3 for some time now but it bothers me that the Americans are in as a civlization. I mean, they only exist for about 200 years. They don't even have some history."

what the F-U-C-K are you on kid? seriously you are quite a dipshit. Germany wasn't around until 1870. Rome stopped existing entirely in 1452 when the Turks destroyed the Byzantine Empire (eastern Rome, I'm giving a lot of leeway here). Zululand wasn't even formally recognized as a country, neither was the Iroquois Confederation and in fact Zululand covered most of Zimbabwe, South Africa, Rhodesia, Botswana, and Tanzania at the time. Russia was globally unimportant until the 20th century. what do you mean America doesn't have history. America has 200+ years of history, with several great leaders, monuments, and achievements in that. take America out of Civ III and take out Electronics, Refining, Electricity, Ecology, Synthetic fibers, Flight, Fission, Stealth, Recycling, Superconductor, The Laser, Smart Weapons, and Genetics cause all of those were innovated or pioneered from American minds, studied by American scientists, and built by American workers. take those things out of the game and it makes for a pretty boring one. no hydro damns, no oil resource, no power plants, no mass transit, no airplanes, no modern tanks, no ICBMs, no nuclear subs, half a spaceship, no recycling center, no bombers, no solar plants, no key essential, important techs and discoveries. let's also not forget the techs the game doesn't offer, like telephones, vulcanized rubber and rubber itself, war mobilization, cable communications, the aircraft carrier, advanced polymers and plastics, the self-loading rifle and the Internet. to say America has no history is to spit on the graves of every man and woman who has lost their lives serving this country during the great wars that have been around since Independence. I seriously hope you aren't American, because if you are, you are the most ignorant ***** ever. please, just tell me you are from France or something so I can laugh my ass off at how we've saved your a$$ from the most powerful nation in the first half of the 20th century TWICE. ignorant a$$. I may not like the way the country is being run right now and who is in charge, but I still like my country and I'm proud of its history.

[Dry]

Originally posted by SieGermans
blah-blah-blah.....

boooooooooring
Next time just say:
Since independence, America invented everything new on earth and save the a$$ of all other countries.
Short, concise, clear.

Originally posted by SieGermans
I still like my country and I'm proud of its history.

Yeah , in Rambo2, there was such a quote "I love my country and I want my country love me", I ROTFLM when I heard it.

[SieGermans]

not at all actually you ignorant belgian fu ck, but quite a few things have come from america that are of great importance, one of those being saving your ass twice from the Germans who rolled over you like a lawnmower. we invented the airplane, nuclear reactor, camera, motion picture, the first computers (those huge card counting machines were IBM and Bell Labs creations) along with the transistor, and all the other things I've mentioned earlier. The Germans invented the combustion engine, the automobile and perfected the submarine, they also invented the rocket and the jet engine, the British built the first steam engine, railways, battleships and the radar installations, Russians made the first satellite, the radio was invented by an Italian, and the atomic theory was a combined dutch, english, and german discovery. and then the belgians gave us...immitation swiss chocolate, a fun tourist spot? look a$$wipe, I can see you don't have much pride for your pathetic country and it's understandable since it has about as much weight in the world as a feather has on the moon, but don't go bashing America. if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't be speaking German today, you'd be starving to death in some worker camp or dead in a ditch. several Belgian companies are merely contracters for American companies such as Browning (Fabrique Nationale), and most of the chemical plants in your nation. it was a real joy hearing the view from a cocky Belgian. that's almost as bad as a cocky frenchman talking **** about America. but seriously, no offense to your little country. as Chairman Mao says in Civ III "Yours is an accomodating little nation"...as I'm sure the Germans found quite accomodating...twice this century

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by SieGermans
as I'm sure the Germans found quite accomodating...twice this century

I will be kind and only point out the last of those errors. We are in the 21st century now.

[SieGermans]

ahh yes yes, true, whatever, I am still not accustomed to that yet and probably won't be until 20 more years have been spent in this century. but oh well, the 21st century is only two months old anyways

[Serb]

Originally posted by SieGermans
what the F-U-C-K are you on kid? seriously you are quite a dipshit.

I think Dry is too intelligential man for answer to you with the same words. I'll do it gladly for him. YOU ARE DIPSHIT by yourself, you are the best example of dipshit I've ever saw in my life. Go and look in mirror before you starting to insult others, and you'll see a stinking as*hole with absence of brains.

Germany wasn't around until 1870.

I am absolutely sure that your brilliant knowledge of history comes from Civ3 civilopedia. May be it wonder you, but Civilopedia is not the only source of knowledge. The separated German states was united in 19 century in one nation, but every one of this states has German culture long before they were united. German CIVILIZATION exists for more then thousand years, nation was separated not civilization.

Russia was globally unimportant until the 20th century.

Well it will be true if you change only one word. This line will be more true if it will be- " USA was globally unimportant until the 20th century." Let me enlighten you about our history. We become a super power long before the USA was created. We become a one of the world's leading nations in 1721 when our first emperor- Peter the Great defeated a Sweden king Karl XII. But in fact we were the largest country in the world since our tsar Ivan the Terrible, attached Siberia to Russia. Since times of Peter the Great any major world's decision cannot be made with ignorance of Russian position. After Russians defeated Napoleon in 1812, we has only one competitor -GB, while they controlled 1/4 territory of the world, it was colonies. We controlled 1/5 of the world’s territory, but it was our own land, not colonies. So, your line about Russian unimportance is the first example that you know nothing about world's history. Let's continue with others.

take America out of Civ III and take out Electronics, Refining, Electricity, Ecology, Synthetic fibers, Flight, Fission, Stealth, Recycling, Superconductor, The Laser, Smart Weapons, and Genetics cause all of those were innovated or pioneered from American minds, studied by American scientists, and built by American workers.take those things out of the game and it makes for a pretty boring one. no hydro damns, no oil resource, no power plants, no mass transit, no airplanes, no modern tanks, no ICBMs, no nuclear subs, half a spaceship, no recycling center, no bombers, no solar plants, no key essential, important techs and discoveries.

What a nice bunch of bullsh*t. Perfect.
Can you give the name of American who invented electricity? As I know Ampere, Ohm, Walt and Qulin were the people who contributed much in theory of electricity, tell me this American inventor is one of tem? Americans invented cinema? Flight? Really interesting. I suppose guys from Europe might easily find inventions of their scientists in your list. I'll start it with Russian inventions you proclaimed to be an American’s. The Laser invented by soviet academic Prohorov in early 60th of last century, He was awarded by Nobel prize for invention of laser. The stealth technology invented by Russian engineer Ufimtsev, yes he leave USSR because of political reasons and immigrated to USA, but he was Russian, has Russian education and based his works on Russian scientific school. The bomber was invented by Russians, if I remember correctly first bomber plane was created by Sicorsky and was called the "Ilya Muromec", btw a few decades later when in Russia a revolution happens Sicorsky immigrated in USA and become a "father" to all of yours helicopters. "No hydro dams" - look close to your only sourse of knowledge- Civilopedia. Even there said that Hoover dam was not the first, and btw was not the largest. "No power plants, no mass transit" hey, guys from UK, may be you should say something about this? "no modern tanks, no ICBMs, no nuclear subs, " you trying to convince me that only Americans have such technologies or achieved them earlier? Our tanks always were better, submarines always were better and we have more ICBM, and better ICBM. The chief of Internet project in DARPA(if I remember properly the name of this organization) if I'm not mistaken was English. Many inventions in your list are invented by people of other countries. USA created unique system, it's hard to create own scientists, you have to spend money for education of millions to gain a couple of genius, and you find cheaper solution- to offer a highest salary and better conditions for genius from other countries. You drain brains from around the world, and then proclaim inventions created by foreigners who changed their citizenship, as great American’s advances. Brilliant.

just tell me you are from France or something so I can laugh my ass off at how we've saved your a$$ from the most powerful nation in the first half of the 20th century TWICE. ignorant a$$.

It was another perfect example.
If USA was really care about someone ass except its own, then it declared war to Germany in 1939 when Hitler attacked Poland, like GB and France declared war on Germany, or in 1940 when Hitler attacked France. You prefer to wait until Hitler declared war on you in 1941. When you made landing in Normandy in 1944, Germany was doomed and almost defeated by soviets, all those countries you are mentioned will by liberated by soviet army if you didn't launched an invasion. This is the only reason why USA engaged in war- to prevent an occupation of these territories by Red army. There is no much honor to engage in war with almost defeated enemy, and then shout on every corner that you are the only saviors of the world.

but oh well, the 21st century is only two months old anyways

This is the final and more brilliant example of your silliness. Tell me, you spent last year in coma? If yes, then it can perfectly explain why your brain is so hard damaged.
But in one point I'm agree with you, USA worth to be in Civ3.
To your opponents I must said that USA is worth to be in Civ3 no less then English, German or France. All of them represent "Western" culture and the fact that USA is younger then others are not the reason for removes them. In 4000 B.C. all of them do not existed.
I think many people don't like Americans because of people like SieGermans- rude bustards who continuously pump in their chest and saying-" we are the Best, we are the Greatest, we are the Strongest. Worship to us emidiently you pathetic idiots". I think such people start to say soon that Adam and Eve were an Americans too. The arrogance of such people is the reason why Americans do not respected by many people, in many countries. SieGermans you are the truly disgrace of your nation.
P.S. poshel na huy kozel.

[Sun Zi 36]

I'm not going to make a point on the subject, cos it has really bored me. i only want to comment on the atmosphere of this thread and i must say it's disgraceful. i cant help but blame the person who started it

Originally posted by SieGermans
what the F-U-C-K are you on kid? seriously you are quite a dipshit.

people here want intelligent discussion. we are not engaging in a gang meeting in a pub. this kind of filth achieves nothing and makes no point at all.

Originally posted by SieGermans
I seriously hope you aren't American, because if you are, you are the most ignorant ***** ever. please, just tell me you are from France or something so I can laugh my ass off at how we've saved your a$$ from the most powerful nation in the first half of the 20th century TWICE. ignorant a$$. I may not like the way the country is being run right now and who is in charge, but I still like my country and I'm proud of its history.

i guess this answered the first half of my previous question, i.e.

Originally posted by Sun Zi 36
i want to know whether it is really mostly americans who voted yes/mostly Europeans who voted no as people have claimed

[Dry]

Originally posted by SieGermans
then the belgians gave us...immitation swiss chocolate

'Ignorance is bliss'. To compare Swiss and Belgian chocolate!?!?
FYI Swiss chocolate is appreciated for the amout of milk in it, it is thus preferred by women, children and 'beginners' in chocolate gastronomy. Belgian chocolate is appreciated for its amount of chocolate. Next time look at the composition of your chocolate bar. If you like 'soft' chocolate (milk and sugar) take the swiss one, if you like 'hard' chocolate, take the belgian one.

if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't be speaking German today, you'd be starving to death in some worker camp or dead in a ditch

.
Do you know where the uranium of your first atomic bomb came from?
When your agent came to Congo, and asked the local governor how long it would take to gather enough uranium for a bomb, the answer was :'The time to drive to the harbor. It is already waiting there for you since 2 years'. He is the only foreigner to have received the do-I-know-which-high-level US medal.

such as Browning (Fabrique Nationale),

we indeed find the weapon business immoral.

...as I'm sure the Germans found quite accomodating...twice this century

FYI: when Germany attacked in WW2, Holland (1,5x belgian pop) resisted 6 days, France (5x Belgian pop) resisted 44 days, Belgium resisted 28 days... and look where the Germans were after 28 days in Russia?

P.S. you forgot to spit on our beer.

[Serb]

Dry,
I'm understend your outrage.
You are well done.
The SieGermans is complete as$hole.
I wish I could say what I think about people like him on english like I've said on russian.
Such bastards like him realy drive me mad. He is some kind of fascist, this is I hate most of all in people.

So, take it easy, he will deserve some day all what he deserves. The God will punish him some day, I'm sure.
P.S I think if Hitler atacked the USA, then after 28 days all people like SieGermans surrender, and become a loyal serfs of fascists. This bastard is truly a shame of his nation, because I know that he represent the minority of americans, and I hope that most of americans feel a shamed because of speeches of such people like SieGermans.
P.P.S. SieGermans, poshel on na huy eshe raz.

[SieGermans]

"I think Dry is too intelligential man for answer to you with the same words. I'll do it gladly for him. YOU ARE DIPSHIT by yourself, you are the best example of dipshit I've ever saw in my life. Go and look in mirror before you starting to insult others, and you'll see a stinking as*hole with absence of brains."

and I think that if you think Dry is intelligent (intelligential isn't a world ruskie *****), then I think you are a complete and utter moron. See I can just go off on you without any think important or valid to say. you haven't given any arguement, you are just upset by the big, mean words I have said. Dry isn't intelligent at all if he has said America hasn't had any history.

"I am absolutely sure that your brilliant knowledge of history comes from Civ3 civilopedia. May be it wonder you, but Civilopedia is not the only source of knowledge. The separated German states was united in 19 century in one nation, but every one of this states has German culture long before they were united. German CIVILIZATION exists for more then thousand years, nation was separated not civilization."

No you retard fuc-k, it comes from reading several books on history. 1870 is the unification of Germany under Bismarck, before that you had independent Kingdoms such as Prussia, Hessia, Pomerania, Bavaria, etc. which had no connection with eachother; if Prussia was at war, Pomerania would have nothing to do with it. During the Middle Ages the Holy Roman Empire composed of many more countries than just the nation of "Germany" then, Poland, Denmark, and Switzerland (until the 13th century) were all part of the Holy Roman Empire, a large chunk of land conquered by Barbarossa. if you are going to come out and say America only has a little over 200 years of history, then Germany only has a little over 100. there is no German "Civilization". There were Germanic tribes. There was no Roman "Civilization" either, there was a Roman Empire, which had humble origins starting off as small tribes in Italy. There is human Civilization. if you knew anything about anthropology you'd realize this. To use an example from the game, when you start it, you select a TRIBE, not a civilization. you get Civilizatin advances because new science is of importance to humanity as a whole.

"Well it will be true if you change only one word. This line will be more true if it will be- " USA was globally unimportant until the 20th century." Let me enlighten you about our history. We become a super power long before the USA was created. We become a one of the world's leading nations in 1721 when our first emperor- Peter the Great defeated a Sweden king Karl XII. But in fact we were the largest country in the world since our tsar Ivan the Terrible, attached Siberia to Russia. Since times of Peter the Great any major world's decision cannot be made with ignorance of Russian position. After Russians defeated Napoleon in 1812, we has only one competitor -GB, while they controlled 1/4 territory of the world, it was colonies. We controlled 1/5 of the world’s territory, but it was our own land, not colonies. So, your line about Russian unimportance is the first example that you know nothing about world's history. Let's continue with others."

Ahhh great, a ticked off russkie trying to bullshit me about your nations "great" history. outside the Crimean war in 1854, Russia was useless in the 19th century. Aside from us kicking repelling a British Invasion in 1812, defeating the well established Mexican army in the 1840s, storming up Tokyo Bay in the 1850s and demanding Japan trade with the rest of the world, and the Spanish American war at the turn of the century, and buying the oil rich lands of Alaska from you (thanks for the second cheapest deal America has ever gotten on land), America was politically invalid in the world and that is why we took an isolationist approach, however our scientific and cultural contributions were great. during the latter half of the 19th century inventors like Edison, Samuel Morse, Eastman, and Alexander Graham Bell were pumping out revolutionary inventions we take for granted today. You talk about your great victories, the Russian Army didn't defeat Napoleon, the Russian winter did. don't give yourself credit were it doesn't belong, had Napoleon had a two more months of decent weather, Moscow would've been taken, same goes for Hitlers army. By Stalingrad, America had already entered the war and was giving hell to the Western front with round the clock bombing, and had already cleared north africa of German rule. And the Japanese kicked your ass at the turn of the century, wonderful the largest country in the world brought to its knees by one of the smallest (by the way, it was America which mediated the treaty between your worthless country and Japan). it's really wonderful and fantastic that Russia contains 1/5 of the world it really is, and that desolate, empty, yet beautiful taiga forest is very nice, but no one cares about how much land a country has, it gauges nothing. wow, canada is bigger than the United States, they must have a stronger economy than we do. ohhh China has 2 billion people, they should get a medal. I doubt the rest of Europe cares how big Russia is because the country's economy is still garbage and the Ruble is worthless. The only they are concerned about if the free access to all the old weapons of the cold war you have scattered about your country.

"What a nice bunch of bullsh*t. Perfect.
Can you give the name of American who invented electricity? As I know Ampere, Ohm, Walt and Qulin were the people who contributed much in theory of electricity, tell me this American inventor is one of tem? Americans invented cinema? Flight? Really interesting. I suppose guys from Europe might easily find inventions of their scientists in your list. I'll start it with Russian inventions you proclaimed to be an American’s. The Laser invented by soviet academic Prohorov in early 60th of last century, He was awarded by Nobel prize for invention of laser. The stealth technology invented by Russian engineer Ufimtsev, yes he leave USSR because of political reasons and immigrated to USA, but he was Russian, has Russian education and based his works on Russian scientific school. The bomber was invented by Russians, if I remember correctly first bomber plane was created by Sicorsky and was called the "Ilya Muromec", btw a few decades later when in Russia a revolution happens Sicorsky immigrated in USA and become a "father" to all of yours helicopters. "No hydro dams" - look close to your only sourse of knowledge- Civilopedia. Even there said that Hoover dam was not the first, and btw was not the largest. "No power plants, no mass transit" hey, guys from UK, may be you should say something about this? "no modern tanks, no ICBMs, no nuclear subs, " you trying to convince me that only Americans have such technologies or achieved them earlier? Our tanks always were better, submarines always were better and we have more ICBM, and better ICBM. The chief of Internet project in DARPA(if I remember properly the name of this organization) if I'm not mistaken was English. Many inventions in your list are invented by people of other countries. USA created unique system, it's hard to create own scientists, you have to spend money for education of millions to gain a couple of genius, and you find cheaper solution- to offer a highest salary and better conditions for genius from other countries. You drain brains from around the world, and then proclaim inventions created by foreigners who changed their citizenship, as great American’s advances. Brilliant. "

Ok captain commie, Benjamin Franklin discovered conductors and how electricity flows from different objects, though the scientific aspect and theorizing was indeed made by Ampere, Faraday, and Ohm. Americans did invent the motion picture camera, as well as the lightbulb, battery phonograph, and motion picture theater. in fact all those right there were invented by Thomas Edison. Flight is an absolute. You are a complete dumbass if you have never heard of the Wright Brothers, who invented the first powered flying machine in Kitty Hawk, NC. those old Russian bombers were merely two seater planes with some moron in the rear holding a bomb sight in one hand and a 10 pound bomb in the other. The Germans invented the first true bomber with a bomb bay. It was manufactured by Gotha and was flown over London several times wreck small, but effective havoc. when I say flight, I mean powered flight, not some goofy glider like the ones Otto Lilienthal created. the Stealth technology that Umfimtsev created has been applied to one aircraft, the F-117, it is valid, but the Americans invented a polymer that gives the same effect on a regular looking aircraft, which is what is used to panel the B-2 stealth bomber. The electric generator was made by Faraday, who was British, and I am not denying that fact either, but the first powerplants were built almost simulatenously in the US and Europe during the 1880s. several great American and European minds were involved, including Edison, Westinghouse, Kelvin, and even that crazy Ruskie Tesla. Sikorsky (learn to spell his name right) did invent the first helicopters, and I never mentioned helicopters as being an American invention so the fact that you even mentioned it is completely pointless. Most Russian scientific advances were merely the execution of German advances already put down in writing and on the drawing board, which is why the MiG 15 is a rip off of the Messerschmitt P1011A which the Russians found partially completed in a factory in 1945. Same goes for Russia's greatest gun, the AK-47, a dirty ripoff of the German MP-44. The Germans came up with almost all the great technologies that you russians claim. Rockets, jet engines, delta wing and swept wing designs on aircraft. Infrared night vision was a German advance that Russians stole. At least our airplane designs represented an original form innovated by our own scientists, not stolen from Germany. No, your tanks were not better, they were slower, and clunkiers. you subs weren't better, they were clumsy, and incapable of diving as deep, and you may have had more ICBMs, but 50% are unreliable duds and ours can make bigger craters and are ALL in 100% working order. The Internet was a Bell Labs creation, just like the transistor. Bell Labs created a wired network for the UNITED STATES department of defense. the British had nothing to do with the development of the Internet. Hoover damn was not the first or the biggest and I never said it was, but America built the first Hydroelectric damns and by 1920 40% of power generated in the country were from hydroelectric damns because they were a cleaner alternative to the coal and oil european nations burned by the million tons yearly back then. I am not saying that Americans don't recieve help for foreign nationals, but for those who have come to America, such as Werner Von Braun, the father of Rocketry, their country gets the credit, and Germans are credited with the first rockets. Italians the first radio, Britain the first TV, radar, steam engine, railroad, and generator, and Russia the first Satellite and cold war. But then again "drain brain", if you haven't noticed, America was merely a colony of Europe with Europeans who didn't want to be controlled by the crown anymore. the true Americans are American Indians. So anyone who doesn't have Native American blood and lives in America is in essence, a foreign national. But if they're the first born first generation in America, then they are American and whatever they discover counts. russian pig

"It was another perfect example.
If USA was really care about someone ass except its own, then it declared war to Germany in 1939 when Hitler attacked Poland, like GB and France declared war on Germany, or in 1940 when Hitler attacked France. You prefer to wait until Hitler declared war on you in 1941. When you made landing in Normandy in 1944, Germany was doomed and almost defeated by soviets, all those countries you are mentioned will by liberated by soviet army if you didn't launched an invasion. This is the only reason why USA engaged in war- to prevent an occupation of these territories by Red army. There is no much honor to engage in war with almost defeated enemy, and then shout on every corner that you are the only saviors of the world."

You are a complete fuc-king idiot. but it's expected when a retard from a country with one of the worlds worst education systems starts talking. did you ever learn history? did you know anything about it at all? Here, I will enlighten you to the full major events of WWII and help the ignorant russian learn about the world. We didn't wait for Hitler to declare war on us in 1941, we didn't want to have anything to do with war in europe, we were neutral. all we did was send Britain and France money and weapons while we tried to pull ourselves out of the great Depression. We were attacked by Japan, you know, Japan, that little island nation which beat the living fuc-k out of your big country of dipshits back during the turn of the century. We declared war on Japan because of Pearl Harbor, since Japan, Germany, and Italy were all in an Alliance together known as the AXIS POWERS (some 5th grade history for you, russian genius). As a result of us declaring war on Japan, Hitler and Mussolini declared war on us, thus awakening a sleeping giant as history books around the world refer to. You Russian bastards were in with Hitler until Operation Barbarossa, which shows were your Alliances were before being betrayed, so don't even try to play hero. By mid-1942, the war in the Pacific was half over with us smashing a majority of the Japanese Fleet at the battle of midway and the Germans had been completely cleared out of North Africa. By 1943 when you Russians had just gained the first victory of the war on the Eastern Front at Stalingrad, we had already pushed up through Italy with British support, and the Italians surrendered. in the pacific we had already liberated Indonesia, New Guinea, and the South Pacific, and had cut the Burma Road and were pushing the Japanese out of Indochina. In Europe it was American Round-the-Clock bombing and OSS and SOE sabotage with help of the French Resistance that was bringing the Nazi War Machine to it's knees, not the weak, pathetic Russian Army who just started to repel the Germans out of their own country with help of the unforgiving Russian Winter. In 1944 our warplanes were already flying over Berlin while you Russians just entered Poland and pushed the last German forces out of the Ukraine. US Forces were clearing the Germans out of Greece and Romania and one of the most famous Allied Bombing Raids on the Ploesti oil fields in Romania destroyed Hitlers last source of oil, which is what spelled the end of fortress europe, not the Red Army. And June 6, 1944 America invaded France, and Germany was on a downhill roll from there. in the Pacific, the Japanese were all but obliterated in Indochina, the Phillipines was liberated and the last bit of the Japanese fleet was destroyed at Leyte Gulf, no Japan had to worry about homeland defense. Before 1944 ended, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Austria, and Belgium had all been liberated by US forces. The "mighty" Russian forces made it into Poland, Hungary, and Czecheslovakia, mostly because the Germany army wasn't camped out in Hungary and Czecheslovakia because those countries had their own Nazi sympathizers who recieved German weapons and fought against the Russian Army. The only country with significant amounts of German forces left in it was Poland, all the other Germans had been pulled out of the East and sent to the Western front to fight against the real threat, which was America. Hitler was so desperate to inflict as much damage to the rest of Europe as he could while American forces closed in on him, he had V-1 and V-2 rockets rain terror on British and French cities. Early 1945 Germany factories had been leveled, and America, British, and now the liberated French were bombing Germany into the dark ages, destroying factories, airports, munitions dumps, railways, bridges, dams, power plants, fortresses, and troop formations all of which made it easier for the russians to push into Germany on the East. May 1945, US, British, French, and Russian forces all meet up in Berlin, the German generals sign a peace treaty, chicken **** hitler commited suicide (russians found his body, yay). and attention quickly turned to Japan which was also on homeland defense after Iwo Jima and Okinawa were taken by US Marines, and desperate Japan began running Kamikazees into our warships. July 1945, worthless Russia declares war on Japan and seizes what is now North Korea, spreading commie propaganda all throughout the country as it did with eastern european countries. August 1945, two atomic bombs end the war, V.J. say is celebrated August 14, the War was over. if you russian bastards truely cared about any on but THEMSELVES first of all, they would NEVER have aligned with Adolf Hitler at the beginning of the War and wouldn't have waited until the summer of 1945 to declare war on Japan, when Japan was already doomed by wave after wave of American bombers. No, our push into Europe from Italy and France was not "made easier" because the "big mighty red army" had already kicked the nazis ass. it took the Red army all of 1944 just to get halfway into Poland. All the other eastern european and balkan nations had no german forces in them, they weren't invaded by Germany because they were aligned with Germany and felt they could hold there own, even though they were incredibly weak and the Red Army was able to defeat them. America and British forces faced the full fury of the Germany army pushing up through the western front. If the Red Army was half as strong as the US army, it wouldn't have taken them 4 years to cover less than half the land US forces did in 1 year against the most heavily fortified Germany strongholds and doing this without the luxury of being on the same continent as there enemy. and let's not forget, while this war in europe was raging on, US naval and marine forces were clearing out the Japanese from all the pacific islands and asian strongholds that they had entrenched themselves in. Russia was nothing, Russia couldn't do **** to the Wehrmacht or the Japanese Army. the Red Army still utilized Cavalry during the first years of the War. your russian history books embellish your history to the point of ridicule, given another year without us entering the war, Moscow would've fallen, Stalin would've been iced, and the Soviet union would've surrendered to Hitler, allowing for a possible German-Japanese invasion of the rest of Asia. the Soviet army was a joke to the Germans and the rest of the world at that matter. Stalin didn't want American planes to be based out of Russia cause he was too damn proud and full of himself, even though if American troops were on the Eastern front, the war would've been over years earlier. so dont give me any bullshit crap about the big mighty red army bringing germany to it's knees. If America didn't enter WWII, the Soviets would no be in existence. Russia has never been known for any military brilliance. Russia generals couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel. The US is better, which is why 10 years of fighting in Afghanistan got the big bad red army nowhere, and it took us all of about 3 months to defeat afghanistan. The Russian Military sucks, it sucked during WWII, it sucks now, and it will continue to suck in the future.