Mixed Bag - Some observations & some questions (a bit long)

[Kokuei]

Hello to everyone in the Forum! I've been a fan of this site for many years, but only now have I joined the forums (I've read them many, many times) and the launch of Civ3 has brought me back...

I've been a fan of TBS games for years, & although I never played the original, I played Civ2 to death, got disenchanted with CTP (ignored CTP2) and was glued to SMAC & SMACX >waves @ Vel<. Now that I have my grubby little mitts on Civ3 and I've made some observations & would like some feedback on a few things.

I'm one of those people that's a bit of a perfectionist, so my initial games were very short. Just getting the hang of the interface, the new concepts & stopping every once in a while trying to work out how to do something (you know what it's like, the what!?, click on the what?!, where's that?!)

My first game that went beyond a couple of cities (cough), I played the Persians, they seemed to fit with how I thought I would play it. I opened up on chieftain level (Standard, 8) because I wanted to make sure I had some experience before I started cranking up the difficulty.

I played my usual builder game, slow & steady, mind you, I obviously hadn't grasped the concept of expansion, I went to about 6 cities before I ran out of space, because virtually every single square available was already gone. I was able to inherit some cities through culture, but usually these cities weren't good for expansion & usually stopped growing before an aqueduct might have been needed.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the only major warfare encountered was the Zulu & Babylonian coalition that descended on me. Thankfully I was able to beat them back, but seeing a tank being killed by an archer (no, I'm not going there, I guess his name must have been Rambo?), all did not feel right. Towards the end I checked my year, it was about 1995 & I'd only just discovered flight. I was like, huh?

My history is a bit vague, but flight a la the Wright Brothers was c.1900. I've read posts saying people have completed the spaceship before the end of the 1900's! Man, was I out of shape!

I won the game by way of Histogram Score in 2050, the melee at the end was comical, many mutual protection pacts kicking in, every other year had 'x declares war on y'.

So this game was going to be different from what I had been used to. That's no problem, I like this.

I played some more games since that first one & my current one is with the Greeks (this time I started on my own private land mass & established 9 solid cities, on top of this I have so far absorbed another 5 through culture!), this time my research seems to be more in line of where I think it should be (I've just made the Industrial age at c.1350AD), which brings me to my first question (eventually!), can anyone give me good suggestions as to where you need to be (year wise) for each age for a chance at playing with all the toys at the end, or building the spaceship?

I've worked out that you can drop the optional ones & I found an interesting side benefit from my second long game where I shot for construction in Ancient. After discovery, I traded this one tech to the other civ's for almost the remainder of the entire tree! I've also read a lot of people saying as soon as you have a tech, trade it for one you don't...is that all these quick people are doing?

Diplomacy is taking a bit of time to get used to as well. In my first game I went to war for the silliest things, regretting it soon after. I then tried working on the keep 'em happy & keep 'em sweet strategy. (I'll save the warmonger in me for a later date). Some things I've noticed (that seem to work).

When you receive a request for a trade that is outrageous (world map for all your tech & all you gold, kind of thing) as long as you have the option to re-negotiate, you're sorted. Ultimatums are a bit trickier, depends on whether you want to call their bluff!). I have found that re-negotiating to a completely different trade, works wonders. I admit it's easier in my current game because my tech is quite strong so I have a lot of throw-away techs I'm not fussed about, but the theory should still be sound. I tend to change it from an 'outrageous demand from them' to a 'have this free gift' from me. They came in annoyed, they go away polite or even gracious. A slightly more amusing one is the 'I forget what I came in for' approach. Civ asks for 'a', reply with 'would you trade for b', they say 'no', you say 'sorry to bother you, goodbye'.

Anyway, establishing an embassy seems to improve their mood & surprisingly stealing a city by your inherent culture, doesn't seem to tick them off much, if at all? Anyone know the lowdown on that one?

Anyway, I better stop babbling now, I appreciate that there's nothing particularly earth shattering in here, but I thought I would make an introductory post.

Regards,

Kokuei
(DtM)

[Velociryx]

::Waves back!::

Hey bud, and welcome! And an excellent post it is, too!

Just pulled up the article I'm slogging through to do some more work on it today (an artlcle analyzing each of the Civs, which is taking FOREVER to do it justice, by the way!), but before i got back into it, I thought I'd try my hand at answering those questions you had:

Tech-trading is key, yep. My current game is on Monarch (having thoroughly stomped Regent repeatedly, I thought I'd raise the bar to continue my testing, and the difference IS notable. I'm keeping pace finally, but it's been nip and tuck, and the AI trades tech constantly with each other, so if you snooze, by the time you get the tech, you pay through the nose and can't resell it....best way is to zero in on a high tech, good research faction (it's the French in my current game), get on GREAT (gracious) terms with them, and when you see them start working on a new Wonder, grab the tech from them and resell it. That is indeed how people catapult themselves from one age to the next quickly, and as a rule of thumb, heavy tech trading generally sees me leaving the Ancient era in 500 AD, and departing the Middle Ages 1300-1400 AD (when I left the game last night, it was the early 1300's, and I'm researching the tech for Newton's University (the name of the tech escapes me tho...lol). Another round of tech trading and I should be able to pull into the Industrial age.

You're also quite right about cultural absorbtion not seeming to bother them in the least. I just ate a city from a gracious England, and contacted them to re-negotiate our deal for my extra spice, only to find them still Gracious. Sweet, and a bit of a side benefit to make paying maintenance on all that rushed-in culture enhancing infrastructure worthwhile.

The diplomacy is a little linear at times, but despite its shortcomings, it's still easily my favorite part of the game....once I'm up and running good, I tend to use diplomacy, rather than force of arms, to threaten neighboring civs, pulling the plug on all the resources I'm trading if they get uppity and cackling as several of their cities go into disorder on following turns. Or, when a little Civ is getting picked on, gifting them iron/horses/chivalry can really turn the tables on a larger, war-mongering Civ....heh.

RoP is a great deal, too....allowing you to post spotter units on mountains in neighboring Civs, and keep tabs on goings on there....much fun....

Anyway....I'm rambling now too...lol...so I guess I'll hit "submit" and get this on its way out to ya....

-=Vel=-

[Kokuei]

Vel,

Many thanks for that response,it was very much appreciated. I've had a bit more time to delve further into the past posts now (Civ3 release passed me by, playing too much D2X ho hum), so I can see the ways in which people are tackling the game, it's just a bit tricky to put that into reality sometimes because it's not always quantified. Get to Middle Ages as fast as possible, but how fast is fast exactly? (for example)

I've never been looking at doing it as fast as possible, I, like some people I'm sure, play for the fun, not to wipe out everyone in under 10 turns or something (nothing against those who do, I admire your tenacity - I read the post on 3 steps to winning @ deity and thought, horses for courses I guess, whatever floats your boat)... however, I would like to get some nice timeframe's in which to play the game. I was quite disappointed in the first one, because although I could have played on, I only just crept onto the Modern tree by official game over time.

Judging from what you've said, my current game should be on track then. I read your articles on the early game & have adapted them for my own play style, I too noticed that trying to SMAC it isn't going to work!

(Incidentally, I don't expect you to remember me, but we had a short dialogue on your SMAC guide (and your name) when I e-mailed you about it - that's why I waved )

Anyway, I'll develop this current game a bit further & see if I can find anything else that might (or might not) be of interest.

By the way, if you need any help with your guide, don't hesitate to yell, I write documents for a living

Thanks again for your tips,

Kokuei
(DTM)

[Velociryx]

Ah ha! Yep....I *do* remember! How you been man?? It's amazing to me how life traces circles through time....I like that....interesting.....cool....

So....yes! As to your game, as it developes for you, I'd be MOST curious to hear your impressions! And as to the guide....I had forgotten that you said you do that for a living, so yep, I"ll prolly be using you as a sounding board on a few things!

If you've still got my addy, drop me a note!

-=Vel=-

[ICMB]

I've noticed that I usually get to the Industrial Age about halfway through the game around 1400 AD.

I rarely get to Future Tech's, as I have had Diplomatic/Space/Cultural victories before that stage.

Time to start being a warmonger, I think.

- ICMB

[mgblst]

When you receive a request for a trade that is outrageous (world map for all your tech & all you gold, kind of thing) as long as you have the option to re-negotiate, you're sorted. Ultimatums are a bit trickier, depends on whether you want to call their bluff!). I have found that re-negotiating to a completely different trade, works wonders.

I find when they ask for something ridiculous, i clear the table, and just give them 10 gold. This keeps them happy, and doesnt affect me too much. I have never had them declare war when i offer them a gift.