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Old November 27, 2001, 13:20   #1
Chevin
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Realism may have killed this game.
One of the most hotly debated topics that crossed this forum was the call for more "realistic" and "historicly acurate" gameplay.

I am afraid you may have gotten what you asked for at the sacrafice of some of the things that may have been very unrealistic but fun.

I saw the argument about how "unrealistic" it was to be able to flatten a mountain into farm land. Well as unrealistic as that may have been it gave the player the option to make better use of his land. But realism won the battle and that option is gone.

I saw the argument that resources in Civ II were meaningless to trade and gameplay, they were just bonuses to the city they resided in. Well gues what you got that too. Now they are vital to the things you build. Because they are vital you got collonies to help you gather resources from areas that you can't build cities in because they are all desert or mountains that you can't teraform anymore.
And now you argue that collonies don't grow into cities. How many threads on how to make collonies useful are we going to see? How long before you realise they are just there to help you get the resources you demanded play a more important role in the game?

I saw the posts about how rediculous it was that you could build a small mass of tanks and take over the world in Civ II. That your population should object to long bloody wars, how many examples from our history did you point out?

So now you have war weariness.

How many threads on fundamentalism isn't a real government did you start?

well its gone.

How many times did you say that huge globe spanning empires would be very hard to control and riddled with corruption?

well you got that too.

I would like to thank firaxis for giving us what we said we wanted. For listening to us and delivering a product that was right on the money..

Now that we released Civ III (an experiment in community tampering) can we make Civ IV a fun game.
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Old November 27, 2001, 13:29   #2
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I see the realism brigade on the horizon. Surely the "who-cares-about-realism" faction will arrive soon as well.
**Braces for long, cold winter full of realism threads.**
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Old November 27, 2001, 13:44   #3
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Good points Chevin, one and all.
Yes, we got what we wanted, but it seems everyone has his or her own idea as to how it should have been implemented.

Nowhere is it as arrogantly stated as here in the apolyton forums.

Surprise, surprise.

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Old November 27, 2001, 13:59   #4
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Your post seems to imply that everyone hates the new changes. From what I've seen posted here, the people who've really spent time playing the game enjoy the challenges that all the new gameplay features pose. Most of the complaints have come from people getting frustrated because they don't understand the big picture and how all the pieces of the game work together in a much more cohesive fashion now.

The one legimate complaint that I've seen consistently is about corruption, but I think it's about the rate of increase vs. distance from the capital, not the overall idea of it, that is bothersome. And of course some major gameplay bugs, but that's not part of your post.

And how about posting some suggestions for how you would do it differently than they did? Since otherwise you just sound a little preachy.
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Old November 27, 2001, 14:29   #5
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I agree with, umm, jgflg. (Is that one glottal stop or two?) I love the resource feature; it made my game interesting in the modern era where it would be pedestrian in Civ2. I like that you can't just terraform the world a la SMAC or Civ2. The combat seems fine to me; not too unbalanced (although my elite swordsman just defended on tundra against 16 barbarian horsemen and lost 1 (count'em, one) hit point, which was certainly aberrant...). I like armies. I like the colonies. I like the culture reversions. I like the war weariness better than the senators. I love how hard it is to dominate the world.

In my opinion, there were a few flaws in implementation, true. The corruption seems to be truly more than even they planned on, and air combat is definitely bugged. But as a whole, I think Civ3 made many steps in the right direction, and only a couple in the wrong.
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Old November 27, 2001, 14:33   #6
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first thing, instead of all of these arguments you so called saw, would u please use the search function and give us a quote or two?

furthermore

Quote:
I saw the argument about how "unrealistic" it was to be able to flatten a mountain into farm land. Well as unrealistic as that may have been it gave the player the option to make better use of his land. But realism won the battle and that option is gone
most likely firaxis slimmed down the terraform option for two reasons, one is to make the game more challenging for the player, and the other is to make it easier for the AI to decide on what to do

Quote:
I saw the argument that resources in Civ II were meaningless to trade and gameplay, they were just bonuses to the city they resided in. Well gues what you got that too.
overall strategic resources is one the brightest points about civ3, it gives the player a real reason to goto war, it is also the best part of the diplomacy system, it makes the game more challenging, more unpredictable, and in the end more fun, so wht is the problem? anyways u can edit out luxeries and strategic resources if you don't like them

Quote:
I saw the posts about how rediculous it was that you could build a small mass of tanks and take over the world in Civ II. That your population should object to long bloody wars, how many examples from our history did you point out?
So now you have war weariness.
yes now we have war weariness, and i don't see what people are complaing about it isn't prone to army laundering and democracy needs something to slow it down...while i don't agree with not being ablee to use roads in enemy territory i got over it and moved on...it's certainly better than howitzer blitzkriegs across the map

Quote:
How many times did you say that huge globe spanning empires would be very hard to control and riddled with corruption?
well you got that too
corruption is too high for the number of anticorruption buildings in the game (which is 1, the courthouse) however i doubt anyone wanted corruption that would basically make all but one or two cities useless, firaxis went a little overboard on this and hopefully they don't go too far in the other direction with the patch

Quote:
I would like to thank firaxis for giving us what we said we wanted. For listening to us and delivering a product that was right on the money
there is nothing wrong with listening to the fans, but at the end of the day it is still up to firaxis to take the fan suggestions and either make them work or not use them...but it is a good thing that firaxis listens and certainly not a bad thing
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Old November 27, 2001, 14:42   #7
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i agree with jgflg 100%

civ3 is a really great game. i think the best part of it is its realism.

in civ2 you knew you were playing a game on your computer.
however in civ3 i have the feeling that i have a picture of the real world on my monitor and i can control it. everything is so much closer to reality. and because reality is very complex, difficult and unpredictable, civ3 is complex and difficult? as well.

i've played civ1 and civ2 for many hours but after i installed civ3 i threw both civ1 and civ2 in the dustbin.

some people (very few) don't like this complexity of the game. well you can play age of empires or red alert then......(i'm not saying that these games are bad-they are great-)

the great success of the civilization series is based on the fact that it always tried to reproduce reality as closer as possible.

the only bad thing about civ3 is some bugs it has.i hope the patch that will be released next week will fix these and make civ3 even better!!!(almost perfect...)


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Old November 27, 2001, 15:41   #8
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Well, not to show my colors for either camp but. based on what the original poster is complaining about, it seems he dosent want change. So then you have what you wanted all this time already, it's called Civ2!
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Old November 27, 2001, 15:46   #9
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Well theres things that are totaly unrealistic that balance it, like culture that takes back cities one turn after they have been conquerd.

But I love and hate it at once.
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Old November 27, 2001, 16:46   #10
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I also agree with jgflg, and CTP (for me, anyway) is a prime example. I remember looking forward to the game when it came out, only to find most of the Gameplay, with a few exceptions, were the same as Civ2. Pretty much if you could beat Civ2, you could beat CTP without much trouble. So, you play once, see all the new technologies/wonders (ooh, Sensorium, wow), then where do you go? Been there, done that. By making Civ3 more realistic and a little more challenging, Fireaxis has essentially reinvented the game for us. Beating Civ2 is *not* a guarantee you'll beat Civ3. They are two different games entirely. For that I thank the team.

Since the release I have played several games, and even waited through the nasty 5 minute turns. Each game has turned out differently. I haven't won each time, but I have enjoyed the game 10x more than I enjoyed CTP.
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Old November 27, 2001, 16:52   #11
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I don't mind complexity, I'm really looking forward to MOO3.

I don't mind the 'tougher game'... I wish it was harder. I haven't lost a single game since the first week of the release, and I only play deity. In civ2 I would usually lose one deity game in five or so... The only thing that worries me nowadays is getting the greeks as my next door neighbour, cause that means taking over his empire might not be complete until 0 A.D. instead of 1000 B. C.

What amuses me is that people attack other when they complain about the resources or combat system or culture or whatever with a childish 'you need to learn how to play the game'.

In reality, however, all these factors makes it EASIER for the human, since the computer doesn't deal well with them. The flawed combat system means I can still kick AI a$$ with my army of cavalry vs. his fortified riflemen, or even worse that my army of archers easily defeats his fortified spearmen.

The resources - Well, by taking over your neighbours areas, which they so nicely claimed for you in their mad settler rush, you are virtually guaranteed to get every single resource. Your AI competitors aren't so fortunate, however. Single out the one AI closest to you that lacks the resource and start your next war... Wait until next discovery, repeat.

civ 3? *bah*
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Old November 27, 2001, 16:53   #12
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Re: Realism may have killed this game.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chevin
I saw the argument about how "unrealistic" it was to be able to flatten a mountain into farm land. Well as unrealistic as that may have been it gave the player the option to make better use of his land. But realism won the battle and that option is gone.
I'm torn on this one, while it seems a bit fantastic, there are modern mining companies that are tearing down mountains everyday. Of course they usually leave large gaping holes of unusable land when they're done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chevin
I saw the argument that resources in Civ II were meaningless to trade and gameplay, they were just bonuses to the city they resided in.
I definately like the old CivII way of trade, I liked building caravans and sending them off to foriegn cities. I also like the way CivIII handles resources now. I think you should have to have a certain resource to build things and trade for it if you don't. I wish Firaxis could have found a way to meld the old with new when it comes to trade.

Quote:
Originally posted by Chevin
How many threads on fundamentalism isn't a real government did you start?

well its gone.
And so is the Taliban

Although I loved it, Fundamentalism was too over-powered anyway. I think it should have been nerfed a little bit and made into a tech which allowed the building of Fundamentalist units that have no upkeep cost.

Me at work ---->
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Old November 27, 2001, 17:08   #13
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I don't know, all those things you say ruined the game i think improved it(yes, including war weariness, which is more manageable than some of you guys make it out to be, and i have played almost all Democracies thus far).

I suppose its easier for someone like me. I played Civ1 a lot, but never really got into it. Played it more like a turn based starcraft. Same with Alpha Centauri built lots of units and all the buildings, not knowing what they really did, never played Civ2. However Civ3 is the first turnbased game i am REALLY getting into, so i don't really care that its not identical to past gamess, like the majority of detractors seem to be upset about. Hell the fact that it got me addicted to it when the past games didn't says a little on how the game isnt "broken", or "ruined".

To each his own i guess.

Edit: Actually i should add, while i like the idea of corruption i am not to fond of the execution. Corruption as a whole should be lessened a bit but not to much. More importantly though there should be ways to combat it, and in my opinion making courthouses work better is not enough. There should be more original and numerous ways to combat it, each way with both its positive and negatives. However, this idea is more for civ4 than civ3 fix. Corruption, besides bugs here and there that will be fixed, is my only real complaint about the game. And it may be fixed a bit in a patch, who knows.

Didn't want to give the impression that i thought the game was perfect

Last edited by taco; November 27, 2001 at 17:39.
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Old November 27, 2001, 19:09   #14
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The only problems with CivIII are where the game is not realistic enough.

-Fast units are overpowered.
-Walls are underpowered.
-Forced Labour is ridiculously over-powered.

Which altogether leads to the totally unrealistic and idiotic 'Pop Rush'.
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Old November 27, 2001, 19:42   #15
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I love every single change you listed.
I think all the new changes add to the FUN of the game. Its the restrictions that make the game fun. How boring would it be to play tennis without the net.
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Old November 27, 2001, 22:46   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by gamma
... (although my elite swordsman just defended on tundra against 16 barbarian horsemen and lost 1 (count'em, one) hit point, which was certainly aberrant...). ...
(Check the Editor -- the player has a combat advantage against Barbarians at every level lower than Diety (at Chieftan, a whopping 400% I recall).)
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Old November 28, 2001, 00:33   #17
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Re: Realism may have killed this game.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chevin
One of the most hotly debated topics that crossed this forum was the call for more "realistic" and "historicly acurate" gameplay.

I am afraid you may have gotten what you asked for at the sacrafice of some of the things that may have been very unrealistic but fun.

I saw the argument about how "unrealistic" it was to be able to flatten a mountain into farm land. Well as unrealistic as that may have been it gave the player the option to make better use of his land. But realism won the battle and that option is gone.

I saw the argument that resources in Civ II were meaningless to trade and gameplay, they were just bonuses to the city they resided in. Well gues what you got that too. Now they are vital to the things you build. Because they are vital you got collonies to help you gather resources from areas that you can't build cities in because they are all desert or mountains that you can't teraform anymore.
And now you argue that collonies don't grow into cities. How many threads on how to make collonies useful are we going to see? How long before you realise they are just there to help you get the resources you demanded play a more important role in the game?

I saw the posts about how rediculous it was that you could build a small mass of tanks and take over the world in Civ II. That your population should object to long bloody wars, how many examples from our history did you point out?

So now you have war weariness.

How many threads on fundamentalism isn't a real government did you start?

well its gone.

How many times did you say that huge globe spanning empires would be very hard to control and riddled with corruption?

well you got that too.

I would like to thank firaxis for giving us what we said we wanted. For listening to us and delivering a product that was right on the money..

Now that we released Civ III (an experiment in community tampering) can we make Civ IV a fun game.


I happen to think that fun is more important than realism, but I also like many of the changes you mentioned.

Actually, a lot of the things were changed not for realism, but for fun.

Terraforming. At first I missed that too. But now begin to appreciate why they did it. First, with settlers and workers no longer require food support, and railroads improving food output, you will get absolutely huge cities if you also get farmland. Also, excessive terraforming kills any diversity in my cities. Every one of my civ 2 cities were the same, with some grassland, and some hills. Now I actually have diversified cities, some with more commerce, some with more shield and some with more food.

Resources: I like the resource and trade system. Surely beats moving dozens of camels around. The need for strategic resources also makes for many challenges in the game.

Colonies: yes I agree its screwed up.

War weariness: Its because they want to get rid of the micro-management of assigning home cities to units. With that gone, you HAVE to have global war weariness. Also, without war weariness, then there will be no reason to go communism in the late game and every civ would be a democracy.

Fundamentalism: it was unbalanced. In the late game the 50% science penalty doesn't mean anything, while you get all the nice advantages.

Corruption: I agree there should be some sort of penalty for sprawling empires, and corruption was a bit weak in civ 2. But I have to agree that it is overdone in civ 3.


Realism is not a bad thing. Imagine if we change the names of all the civs into A1, A2, A3, all the tech names into T1, T2, T3, all the unit names into U1, U2, U3, and so on the game will probably not be enjoyable anymore. Fun is more important than realism, yes, but if fun is not sacrified, then more realism is good. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Old November 28, 2001, 07:38   #18
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Realism did not kill this game, it was in some cases the lack of realism e.g. ships Vs Air Power and all modern units. Its as if they did not finish the modern eara at all
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Old November 28, 2001, 08:04   #19
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Quote:
I happen to think that fun is more important than realism
Strategy vs simulation is really at the heart of this debate. And both appeal to differing types of player. Civ is fairly unique in that it tries to straddle to two and hence the two camps of player collide.

Quote:
First, with settlers and workers no longer require food support
Which is absolutely silly from a simulation perspective for several reasons:

- Settlers cost two population points. A city of size costs 4 food to support, yet a settler (consisting of a comparable number of people) costs zero.
- Cities can become settler factories. E.g. you can have 10 settlers yet only 1 size 1 city. Essentially a nomadic civilisation.
- Settlers cost two population points yet can only found a city of size one population point. Where do the other half of the people go?

Unit support in general is crazy for many reasons. At least Civ2 has abstraction mechanisms in place for handling support, rather than the "everything costs money" approach of Civ3.

Quote:
you will get absolutely huge cities if you also get farmland
Moving Sanitation much further up the tech tree castrates civilisations at size 12 cities for far too long, while this may be more realistic (e.g. how many cities of population 1M+ were there in 100AD?) it is also more frustrating for a player who's worked hard to drive up city growth.

Quote:
. Surely beats moving dozens of camels around. The need for strategic resources also makes for many challenges in the game.
It does and is one of the few added elements that couples realism and simulation with strategy. However, there are weaknesses. How come I need Oil to build a Jet Fighter but not Oil to run it? Same for railroads as well, where you need Coal to build but not to run. Why doesn't Electricity also negate the need for Coal to build railroads? There are aspects which are not refined enough and the lack of realism causes a detraction of gameplay.

Quote:
War weariness: Its because they want to get rid of the micro-management of assigning home cities to units.
Isn't that really just an example of how additional game rules and concepts were bent around the game engine rather than vice-versa? Seems to me like a bigtime shortcut. If you wanted to add both realism and gameplay here, then keep War Weariness but also keep unit basing in cities. Don't you think that if a single city kept building and sending units to their death (i.e. soldiers from that city) then the citizens would get a lot more upset than over the other side of your empire? Again, not refined enough.

Quote:
Fun is more important than realism, yes, but if fun is not sacrified, then more realism is good.
You need a balance between both. A game is not fun to many people if they do not think a certain degree of realism is being adhered to (a prime example of this is the complaints about the combat system).

The reason why Civ1 and (to a less extent) Civ2 were fun to many people is because they abstracted away a lot of the nitty-gritty of realism into concepts which were translated simply and elegantly in terms of strategic gameplay. Civ3 has changed many of these, preferring more complex, concrete mechanisms (e.g. resources vs trade) over the previous abstractions. Part of the involving imagination that was such a strong part of "that Civ feeling" is subsequently lost, at least IMHO.
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Old November 28, 2001, 11:42   #20
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Re: Realism may have killed this game.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chevin
One of the most hotly debated topics that crossed this forum was the call for more "realistic" and "historicly acurate" gameplay.

I am afraid you may have gotten what you asked for at the sacrafice of some of the things that may have been very unrealistic but fun.
That's strange, because as far as I can see, there is much more complaints about LACK of realism than about EXCESS of realism.

Quote:
I saw the argument about how "unrealistic" it was to be able to flatten a mountain into farm land. Well as unrealistic as that may have been it gave the player the option to make better use of his land. But realism won the battle and that option is gone.
I would like to see the option in the game editor to give a unit the possibility to terraform (to allow more possibilities in mod about a sci-fi or fantasy scenario). Though, like said Monoriu, the ability to terraform made that at the end of the game, the entire map was grassland with some mined hills/mountains. In my games on the Earth map, I ended razing the whole Himalaya and Sahara into grassland. That was perhaps a little overpowered
So, make it optionnal.

Quote:
I saw the argument that resources in Civ II were meaningless to trade and gameplay, they were just bonuses to the city they resided in. Well gues what you got that too. Now they are vital to the things you build.
It's true that the ressources system is actually more realistic than in Civ2. In fact, it's MUCH more fun. Another fact to show that more realism can end in more fun.

Quote:
I saw the posts about how rediculous it was that you could build a small mass of tanks and take over the world in Civ II. That your population should object to long bloody wars, how many examples from our history did you point out?

So now you have war weariness.
In fact, it's realistic to only need a few armored divisions to take over the world IF the world is composed only of civilizations still at the bronze age. And allowing old units to be increased in power toward new ones is actually one of the most argued issue. So it's not ADDING realism that made more complaints on this very case, it's REMOVING it.
And about the war weariness and the home city : I'm DAMN GLAD they have removed it, it's one of the things I always hated. The war weariness is a much better way to handle war under democratic government than a senate that constantly try to make peace and units that made population unhappy just because they are far away. Not only it make more sense, but it's adding to the game.

Quote:
How many threads on fundamentalism isn't a real government did you start?

well its gone.
IMHO, fundamentalism is gone due to 9/11 rather due to complaints. A too powerful government can be modified to be balanced, removing it is only if it just does not fit in the game. And after seeing AC and it's Believers faction and the "religion" (don't remember the name) social choice make me think that it was actually fitting pretty well in the game, even more in Civilization. So I think it's rather a politacally correct choice than a design one.

Quote:
How many times did you say that huge globe spanning empires would be very hard to control and riddled with corruption?

well you got that too.
Again, the corruption in Civ3 can in no way told it's even close to realism. These 100 % corrupted cities does not even exist in third world. Civ 2 was much more realist on this one.

So well, rather than saying that excess of realism killed the game, tell that LACK of realism hampered it.




About the support unit issue, I think that the new system is better. A modern army don't suck ressources from just one city, it's supported by the centralized govenment. Though, soldiers need to eat. The fact that a city can die because of starvation while the city next door has a +8 food output is a little silly too.
I think that the food could be centralized just like the support for units : all the excess food production of all the cities should be gathered, then 1 food for each unit would be substracted from the total, and then the rest would be distributed between your cities. This would require to add to each city a new ability, the "food meter" or something like that, to control how much food would be given, so you could control which city would grow the faster.
Same for the support, each unit could require one shield, and then if you have 50 units, the 50 shields used for supporting the units would be removed evenly to all your cities (could be a "X shield used by city", or a "for each Y shield produced in each city, one shield is used", or whatever you feel is best).
And one last thing : to keep the "producing two hundred units in five turns" syndrom, and to add more realism (and I think more fun, but that is subjective), I suggest that each unit who normally require a lot of people (infantry, cavalry, armored division, etc... ie nearly all but missiles, ships and planes) should cost 1 population to build. It's somewhat disturbing that the computer can loose 60 units to my strong defenses and still just waste some production. I mean, hundred of thousand people DIED while attacking. This thing disturb me since Civ 1, but now with the editor it can be fixed
It would reflect the cost in lives in a war, and would prevent sending hordes of units just be slaugthered (=> urging people to upgrade and produce more modern unit, can resolve a lot of "old units wins are more efficient than modern ones". The only drawback is that I don't know if the AI can handle it pretty well...

BTW : the food/money system for units was already used in Master of Magic and worked pretty well. It was even much better done than Civ 3 one, as each unit had its own cost. And MoM is only 2-3 years younger than Civ 1, talk about great ideas not used).

Quote:
It does and is one of the few added elements that couples realism and simulation with strategy. However, there are weaknesses. How come I need Oil to build a Jet Fighter but not Oil to run it? Same for railroads as well, where you need Coal to build but not to run. Why doesn't Electricity also negate the need for Coal to build railroads? There are aspects which are not refined enough and the lack of realism causes a detraction of gameplay.
Good point.
Units requiring coal and oil would be reduced to 0 movement when your supply runs out for more than, let's say, 5 turns (to simulate the stocks).
Railroads should not require coal after you build your first power plant.
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Old November 28, 2001, 12:11   #21
rid102
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I suggest that each unit who normally require a lot of people (infantry, cavalry, armored division, etc... ie nearly all but missiles, ships and planes) should cost 1 population to build. It's somewhat disturbing that the computer can loose 60 units to my strong defenses and still just waste some production. I mean, hundred of thousand people DIED while attacking.
A very good point. This also makes larger cities stronger (they can support larger armies). Prevents early military conquest of the world unless you have a big empire to support it (e.g. Roman Empire) and makes city attacks to cut supply lines (unit support) more worthwhile again; amoungst other things.

This adds to gameplay: Should you build that additional army or do you need the population to help build a Wonder quicker? Can I afford to build another ten Cavalry regiments or should I use the population to keep earning me more cash?

Another non-realism which would also help towards the combat system also is the silly fact that say you have three Spearmen in a city, when the sity is attacked only one Spearman defends? WTF? Are the others like "Oh OK he's fighting the battle, we'll relax". It's stupid. They'd all fight together of course. Then again, this was also the case in Civ1 and Civ2.


Hmmm...

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Sire, The People's Republic of Firaxis has discovered the secret of Programming, this allows us to produce Civilization III. Where should our wise men direct their efforts next?

Refining

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Old November 28, 2001, 13:06   #22
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I gotta throw my hat in the ring here....

There are always going to be trade offs no matter what we do...

For example:
Resource system: I truly feel that the current system is far better than Civ2. I really feel in Civ3 I am running a connected whole rather than a bunch of city-states. In Civ2 if I lost any city other than my capital it was no big deal, I just had to churn out more engineers to terraform another mega-city in a few turns.

Fast forward to Civ3... If I lose my city that is my source of coal or iron, or heck, if my supply chains are cut, no more railroads, or knights, etc. Granted, there are issues about using your fighters or tanks when your oil supply has run out, but where does that stop? You can take that arguement through ad naseum. Plus it would add undue complexity to an otherwise fairly elegant system. Which brings up my next point...

The simpler a given system is the better. By simple, I do not mean you do not have options, I mean you do not have to micromanage it. Again, let me compare and contrast the last two Civs:

Civ2 - The caravan unit was the only method of trade. Not only that, the only thing that it did was generate additional trade (plus the intial bonus cash and tech bonus). The problem was, unless I produced a caravan, I had little to no trade. It could also be exploited to a large extent, produce enough caravans and forget about your science rate, etc. Finally let's not forget about the hunt to find the ideal city to send each caravan to. Micromanagement to the extreme.

Civ3 - When I contact another civ I merely need to get a route to his capital. Once this is complete, when I want to initiate a trade I call him up, put him down for some furs in exchange for 10 gold a turn, etc. There is a negotiation, not an arbitrary this city has 10 pop this has 12 and they are separated by 20 squares. Not only that but rather than merely generating additional trade arrows, now I get cash in my coffers or I can get a valuable resource. Finally, these trades can be renegotiated later or cancelled. Having issues with the tech leader or with someone who has tons of money to rush build units? Slap a number of embargos on him and see how long that holds true! More options, more in depth, but less turn to turn micromanagement.

One more issue, the tech tree:

Civ2 - A beautiful tech tree with many interconnections and plenty of different paths to research. I have no real complaints here. However, many of the paths gave you something new, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem was nothing was useful for any length of time. Why build tanks when in another few turns I will have howitzers? Why build riflemen when I am getting alpine troops or marines in the next few turns, I'll just have to upgrade again. My big beef here was when someone would get Space Flight, but had never researched pottery, or they had navigation with no map making.

Civ3 - A more simplified tech tree with some interconnections, and a few primary paths. There is less flexibility here. But there is some benefits in this. Units are now useful for a good length of time. Combined with the resource system, the higher tech civ is not necessarily the scourage of the earth. Additionally, because of the method of tech advancement, we no longer have people that are going through the industrial revolution that do not know how to read and write. More simplistic, less, but better.

That is not to say that Civ3 does not have its faults, but it is in general a more elegant system with less micromanagement. The majority of the complaints I have seen have been because people did not get what they want, or did not get Civ2/SMAC with new graphics. Some of the decisions were wrong or they went overboard (i.e. corruption) but because they made a given decision does not mean the game is broken. Most issues will be fixed or balanced in a patch.
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Old November 28, 2001, 21:36   #23
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I rather liked the changes in Civ-III. Actually, the biggest 'flaw' with Civ III is that is is called Civ-III, and on the surface the interface looks the same. In reality, it is a very different game - maybe they should have shaken things up a bit more to reinforce this. I did read an amusing review of Civ-III on CNN.com about how the secret to Civ-III's success was how similar it was to Civ-II. This begs the question, do reviewers actually PLAY the games?

Addressing some commen complaints:

Corruption used to a problem for me, because if you play Civ-III civ-II style, its a major bummer. Then it goes away - I think some simple tweaks to corrptuong would make it about right, decrease in democracies more, road-connected cities, etc. This is a commen complaint by many beginners, but most people tend to think the corruption is only slightly off kilter, not a major flaw.

The resource system is an excellent idea, although the importance and scarcity of oil should be downplayed a bit (I've never had a problem with any of the other resources). Naval units should not need oil (coal or nuclear power should be sufficent, actually Nuclear powered vesels should be much faster). There should also be economic benifits for having excess (i.e. units are cheaper to make.) resources - in case you have stuff you can't sell to anyone else. The Mutual Protection Pact is a good idea, in my first Civ-III game I got into both a World War I Secnario, AND a World war II (Japan) Scenario (no oil).

There are other small problems, but they've been covered Ad Nausem here.

I like the fact that is quite difficult to maintian a pro-longed war in enemy territory. Civ-II was horrible, you could use your enemies railroads against him! Build enough Howitzers, and poof! He's dead in one turn.


"Thus in miitary campains I have heard of awkward speed but have never seen any skill in lengthy campains. No country has ever profited from protracted warfare..."
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War, Chapter 2.
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Old November 29, 2001, 06:09   #24
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There are always going to be trade offs no matter what we do...
Not quite sure what this "we" business is; I didn't have anything to do with this game being made.

Anyways, I don't think this is particularly true. E.g. look at Civ2 over Civ1. There were a lot of things improved and a couple of new things added and isn't wasn't a case of "trade-offs" by any means.

Quote:
Resource system: I truly feel that the current system is far better than Civ2.
I agree BUT it needs refining. There are many things which don't add up and hence detract from gameplay. It's a solid idea but more attention to detail and grounding in reality would make a half-assed semi-idea a truly powerful gameplay enhancer (as opposed to the gameplay alteration it is at the moment). As it stands, the game now revolves too much around resources. The game isn't about who controls the most powerful empire or who is the most cultured (or whatever) it's simply about who controls or has access to resources. Technology and science advancement is neutered by the new resources model. It's too powerful and not refined enough IMHO. It's an interesting idea that should have been pioneered in CTP3 (or some other game) and then refined into Civ3 when the model was more mature.[/RANT]

Quote:
I really feel in Civ3 I am running a connected whole rather than a bunch of city-states.
Yes, I think this is very true. In fact, I was playing Civ3 last night and actually thought this to myself. I think this is mainly due to two things: connected trade network (roads) and culture.

Quote:
The simpler a given system is the better.
Agreed, but was not Civ2's (and even Civ1's) trade model not simple enough? Granted there was a lot of abstraction but it was simple to grasp as well as being easy to handle and (reasonably) powerful? The problem with taking a trade model (e.g. Civ3's resources) out of abstraction is that you then get discontinuities with realism, are forced to fill in the holes and end up with a semi-elegant, semi-working system like Civ3's resources.

I strike a deal with the Greeks for some Oil, build some Modern Armour but then the deal ends so I'm back to building Swordsmen and Longbowmen... hmmm. Oh yeah and I've been to the moon yet apparently my wise men haven't worked out how to run a railroad on anything except Coal (electricity isn't good enough, apparently). etc. etc.

Quote:
Civ2 - The caravan unit was the only method of trade.
Civ2's mechanism of trade (and Civ1's) was, to be frank, crap. This has always been known from day one and the resource system is definitely an advantage over that. However, by taking away a chunk of abstraction you're also becoming wide open to crazy scenarios e.g. 2000AD Longbowmen despite me visiting the moon etc.

Also gameplay disparities open up. E.g. I discover Steam Power and want to build railroads but can't as I have no Coal in my territory. Great OK, let's go and trade for it. Oh, except no-one else is anywhere near as advanced as me, so no-one else has discovered Steam Power and so I can't get Coal.

Coal is actually located in most places all over the world. Civ2 abstracted this out yet Civ3 makes a meal out of it.

Quote:
The problem was nothing was useful for any length of time. Why build tanks when in another few turns I will have howitzers?
Exactly the same is true of Civ3 though. Maybe the timescales are slightly longer but not by much. By the time I've actually discovered Gunpower, got around to negotiating or seizing Saltpetre and built a few Musketmen in most cities then I've discovered Riflemen....

Quote:
Civ3 - A more simplified tech tree with some interconnections, and a few primary paths. There is less flexibility here.
The Civ3 tech tree is again something which is good but not great. The Civ2 tech tree over the Civ1 tech tree was a solid improvement, yet again with Civ3 it's a bit more of a re-juggling effort. Almost as if Firaxis just kind of felt obliged to change it because even though it wasn't really broken at all, they're not going to release exactly the same tech tree as before, are they?

The tech tree also has a much narrower traversal range in Civ3. There are only a couple of routes you can go through it efficiently. If you take an inefficient route then you'll take longer to get the same set of advances. It restricts gameplay (as e.g. you can't go for quick democracy anymore). Whether this is a good thing because it makes the game harder is IMHO questionable.

Seems to me that a lot of the proponents of Civ3 are people who are claiming that things which were never highlighted as major problems in Civ1/Civ2 (e.g. Howitzers+Railroads = Death) but which Civ3 is now this miraculous improvement over.
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