Mutual Protection Pacts and the domino effect

xane · November 28, 2001, 12:11

Firstly, say I have a Mutual Protection Pact with two civilizations who then declare War, which one would I go with ?

I would also like to be able to not honour a MPP, the consequence in reputation could be worse than declaring War, but at least I'd like the option.

Furthermore, say I have an MPP with one civilization who then has an MPP with third, who then goes to War, this creates a domino effect of dragging the entire world into the conflict.

You can even envisage "circles" of MPPs dragging everyone into one side or another in a fight.

Take a complex scenario: I have MPPs with the French and Germans, the French have an MPP with the Persians, the Germans with the Egyptians. Say the Persians declare War on the Egyptians, so the French side with the Persians and the Germans with the Egyptians, where does that leave me ?

And why can a civilization I have an MPP with then put a Trade Embargo on me ? And why can't Trade Embargoes be recinded with an appropriate loss of reputation, surely money speaks louder than homour ? One of the most frustrating things is when I declare War on someone through some circumstance and they hurry off and get Trade Embargos with everyone against me, even though the War is over in two turns, I have effects lasting another 18 ?!

quinalla · November 28, 2001, 12:32

If you have a MPP say with Germany and France and they attack each other, you will side with whoever gets attacked in their own territory first. For example, Germany is in French territory and destroys improvements, you will side with France. If the first fight breaks out in neutral territory (any territory that is not within the cultural borders of either civ) you will not join in, not until the fight moves to one of the territories. This is useful to know when an AI declares war on you, let them hit you in your territory first, so that any MPP that civs have with both of you will go your way, then go in and attack their cities. I hope this helps!

-quinalla

Wrong_shui · November 28, 2001, 12:34

1.You will side with whoever has to defend in their own territory first

2.Some MPP cancel out in complex situations

Jaybe · November 28, 2001, 14:23

Xane, you don't have to worry about who. Your advisor will TELL you who you are at war with.

You only have to worry about world war ramifications when you get into one -- don't worry too much though, because it can be a natural order of things for a while. Then later, after things have shaken themselves out, you may find that there are much fewer (if any) MPPs.

VoodooChild · November 28, 2001, 14:33

Ever heard of World War I ? MMPs dragged every european power into what was basically a civil war.

Dhaeman · November 28, 2001, 14:41

The trade embargoes and all were great ideas but all the alliances and friendships seem to fake and temporary. In civ2, before you got too powerful and everyone hated you for that reason, your alliances meant something. It didn't last a few years, it let you go through their territory without signing a right of passage agreement as well. And I also have never understood how if you are close friends with 2 certain nations how they will ask for your arm and leg before resigning a mutural protection pact. It would be nice to have real allies in the game...not this temporary stuff in Civ3.

G.A · November 28, 2001, 15:20

Though the AI`s weird obsession with signing MPPs with just about everyone leads to some easy wins for human in the games, that look like lost - in my last one 5 AIs, who survived until Nationalism couldn`t stop a war for over 300 years!!! From the 1700 to 2040 no AI civ was at peace with everyone for a single turn! So, they spent all that time on Communism, allowing me an easy win with 6 cities, cause I managed to not get at war with anyone

samsmithnz · November 28, 2001, 15:38

Yeh i agree. They are called world wars, and i think they make the game interesting. Nothing worse than a peaceful world where everyone likes each other!!!

fanatic civver · November 28, 2001, 18:48

>I would also like to be able to not honour a MPP

You do have that option - dont sign a MPP in the first place! A peace treaty will always suffice.

I agree with trade embargo stuff.

In reply to Dhaeman:

I feel in the opposite way - in civ2 alliances meant nothing because as soon as you got too powerful, all the civs ganged up on you, and when you signed an alliance they just cancelled it the next time you spoke to them even if it was obviously not in their best interests. Alliances and peace treaties in civ2 sucked and meant nothing.

Civ 3 is a lot better IMO. The AI is committed to its agreements for at least 20 turns, so no more of this BS sign alliance and then they contact you to cancel it 5 turns later. AI's of equal size often sign MPP's for nothing with you at regent and monarch at least, and when you are both at war the AI usually lets the MPP last longer. Anyway, the AI usually asks for a small gold donation to keep the MPP alive, which is nothing in the late game.

Also, AI's don't go super aggressive to you when you get too big. They just demand more for their luxuries and protection pacts - as they should because luxuries are worth a lot more to a larger emire than a smaller empire, and when going to war a larger empire is much more likely to reap the rewards of success in the war than a smaller empire.

I do realise what you mean about feeling like you dont have "real allies". However I get the feeling that if a leader has been "gracious" to me over the past 2000 years then I feel as if he/she is a real ally even if we are not in a MPP. You can usually get these powers to sign an alliance vs such and such when you go to war, if you offer them sufficient compensation

And again, that lasts for 20 turns, so no silly AI stopping the deal halfway through, unless the other civ pays lots of money

Seneca · May 15, 2002, 20:54

Dragging this thread up, since I'm stuck in a rather horrible domino effect.

Peace between everyone until I discover steam, and want to build railways - not much coal on the map, and none in my territory, so I declare war on the English with the very limited aim of getting the two cities I need to secure my coal supply. English are way behind in tech, easy, quick victory, I thought.

The Russians join in on the English side, which isn't problematic, as they're miles away. But after I've beaten up the English and got the cities I wanted, the Russians still refuse to acknowledge my envoy. They sign a MPP with the Germans. I sign an MPP with the Americans. I make peace with the Russians eventually, but while the Germans are refusing my envoy they drag the English back in. Who invite the Persians. So I invite the Aztecs. Make peace with the English, but a few turns later they come straight back in on the side of the Germans. Bizarrely, the Russians now declare war on the English.

And so it's been going on, turn after turn - HELP!!

I'm more or less fighting them all off, and on the whole gaining territory, but I'm a Republic whose citizens are starting to go mental with war weariness, and I need a break!

Is there any way to break the cycle?

btw, I'm not playing with a patch, since my game kept crashing with the latest one - is this something that's a little more reasonable in later patches?

KrazyHorse · May 15, 2002, 20:57

Papa Oppenheimer and 10 megatons worth of his best friends ought to do the trick.

notyoueither · May 15, 2002, 21:10

You need to make peace with all at roughly the same time. OR...

Decide who the biggest impediment to peace is (The Target). Make peace with one of his significant neighbors. Bribe that neighbor into an Alliance against the target.

Make peace with the next most likely prospect. Bribe them into an Alliance against the target. Repeat the process until the whole world is at war with the target. Wait 20 turns, nullify the alliances, make peace with the target.

It is best to avoid MPPs period. Never use one to draw someone into a hot war. Use alliances instead.

Also, if WW is creeping up, avoid offensive action into enemy territory. Focus on defending the realm and avoid the loss of units until you can make peace. Offensive action and unit loss will increase WW AFAIK. Whatever you do, don't raze any cities.

BTW. Is WW going down when you make peace with one of the bad guys? It should, but that may have come in a patch.

Seneca · May 15, 2002, 21:16

Trouble is, it's only very rarely any of the civs will acknowledge my envoy, so I can't really pick and choose who I make peace with.

notyoueither · May 15, 2002, 21:34

Once a civ will acknowledge your envoy they will still acknowledge at a later date. Wait until more of them will acknowledge your envoy and make peace all at once, or go for plan B.

Try it, you might be surprised how cheap an alliance with civ X against their ally civ Y can be. Of course it might be really expensive too, or they may say 'no way' (you don't have enough for them to possibly consider it).

Inverse Icarus · May 15, 2002, 21:37

yea. if you notice, MPPs are used and aused for a while but then they fade away, as in real life.

Seneca · May 16, 2002, 07:57

Quote:

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Papa Oppenheimer and 10 megatons worth of his best friends ought to do the trick.

Ooh, yes, they're all gonna pay dearly when I get ICBMs...

OK, I'll try just holding out and making peace with all of them at once - it was tempting to take peace whenever I could, just to get someone off my back.

And now the bastard Persians have taken the city with the coal - gaaaah!

Harovan · May 16, 2002, 08:13

MPPs are usable, if you handle them right. Don't MPP with more than one nation. Pick a strong nation for your partner. Use a reliable nation. For instance, MPPs with England aren't worth anything, because Liz is a backstabbing witch. MPPs with France are usually worth pure gold because Joan is reliable and in the case of war she will drag the whole world on your side. Sure, making a MPP is a safe way to get into a war, but if you choose your allies wise and make only one MPP at a time, you are guaranteed to get out of it after 20 turns without reputation penalty.

Fitz · May 16, 2002, 12:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Seneca
Trouble is, it's only very rarely any of the civs will acknowledge my envoy, so I can't really pick and choose who I make peace with.

Seneca, if you make peace with a country that you have declared war on due to a MPP with a third party, your reputation suffers with the third party, and they will not acknowledge your envoys. You need to be sure that you do not sign a peace treaty with the Civ you are at war with until you have properly cancelled (after 20 years) the MPP. It may be true, but I am not sure of this, that you can also sue for peace 20 years after the war breaks out without harming your rep.

I've done this before. I thought a civ was likely to attack me next turn, so I got almost everyone else into an MPP, then when the Civ attacked me, I had the world agianst the Greeks for the next 20 years, after which I cancelled my MPPs then sues for peace. Luckily for me, none of the others attacked each other, but even if they had, I would have waited the prerequisite time and cancelled my MPPs, then gone for the peace treaty.

wrylachlan · May 16, 2002, 14:10

What would make the most sense to me would be that when civ A declares war on civ B (makes the first strike) then civ B's MPP allies should be drawn in, but not civ A's.

A couple of games ago, I was the dominant civ as the Persians. Greeks next door were tiny. I signed a MPP with the Greeks thinking it would deter any of my other enemies from attacking them and stealing the resources they were trading to me. What happens? The Greeks go on the offensive! WHAT! This little nation that could never win goes on the offensive and drags me into this major war. If another civ attacked Greece I would be happy to honor my MPP and defend them, but when they are the aggressors?

This is sort of a side note, but in the current game there is no real reward for becoming closer allies with someone. In fact, the manor in which you can be dragged into wars makes treaties something to stay away from. I think there should be some sort of bonus for the closer your diplomatic ties are to a country. Maybe a small happiness bonus as your people aren't afraid they're going to go to war? And there should be some trade bonus for trading with your closest allies versus trading with civs you have an uneasy peace with.

Maybe make trades cost "comission" money (on top of the trade itself you have to pay a percentage of the trade to grease the wheels), and that cost goes down the closer allied you are to a civ.

The breakdown might look like this:
1.WAR - No happiness bonus - No trade possible
2. Peace - 1% Happiness bonus - 10% trade "comission"
3. MPP (as detailed above) - 2% Happiness bonus - 5% trade "comission"
4. Allies (as MPP works now) - 3% Happiness bonus - Free Trade

The exact percentages could be worked out with playtesting, but this would make it a choice: better trade vs. risk of being drawn into conflict.

Arrian · May 16, 2002, 15:57

I avoid MPPs like the plague, except for two specific situations:

I want help in a war I'm fighting, or more likely I simply want to prevent my enemy from bringing in help.

I'm spoiling for a fight, but don't feel like declaring war (me = agreesor + democracy = ugly war weariness). My MPP partner will OFTEN take care of it for me. I normally only do this when there are 2-3 AI's left, so I can target one specific civ as the odd man out.

-Arrian