The Great LE Scandal, Infogrames elevates it to new heights

LaRusso · November 30, 2001, 04:28

Okay, I did not want to start a new thread on this, but the previous one got buried in avalanche of 'Civ is broken' posts. It got almost 8000 views and normal people tend to avoid threads with several pages because they tend to develop into flamefests and trolling orgies. So here is the sequel. You may find the original thread here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=1

I decided to write to Infogrames and ask them about the inexcusable lack of designer's notes in the LE.

(my letter no 1.)

Quote:

Dear Mrs. Bushkin,

On behalf of a number of dissatisfied customers, I would like to draw your attention to the following case of false advertising and serious customer misleading your company committed in the recent months.

Thousands of Civilization fans bought Civ3 Limited Edition, not only to admire its tin box of bearable quality, but much more because it was advertised to include 'Designer's Notes by Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs'. Some of us undertook additional effort to have the game delivered overseas. Those boxes arrived quite some time ago, but none of us could find the advertised Notes.

Since there has been quite a disturbance on Civ3 fan forums regarding this issue, I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know what Infogrames plans to do to remedy this situation and prevent further damage to its reputation among its customers.

after finally turning her out of office autoreply off, mrs. bushkin first sent a kind of inhuman message corporations are so fond of (they actually train their employees to produce them en masse)

(Infogrames letter no. 1)

Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail and for bringing this matter to our attention. I have forwarded your e-mail on to the appropriate people within our company and assure you that they will look into this immediately. I will keep your e-mail address so that we can contact you when we have an answer for you.

Sincerely,
Nancy Bushkin
Vp, Corporate Communications

and contact they, actually, she did! just look at the incredible answer i got from them. not only is it insulting to anyone's intelligence, but it also tries to elevate that crappy little 'tempus fugit' letter we got from sid and jeff to the status of 'designer's notes'

Quote:

We have looked into your complaint and have tracked down the following information: While we are not aware of the advertising you mention, we did list the contents of the Limited Edition on certain online sites prior to the launch of the product. That listing indicated that there would be a note from the game's designers included in the product. To our knowledge, every copy of the Limited Edition included a one-page letter from Sid Meier and Jeff Briggs. If you -- or any of the other customers you mention -- did not receive this letter in your Limited Edition packages, please let me know and we will make certain that
copies are sent out immediately.

I hope this answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please let me know. Again, thank you for your interest in and support of the Civilization franchise.

Sincerely,
Nancy Bushkin
VP, Corporate Communications

i bothered that much to reply the following

Quote:

Dear Mrs. Bushkin,
I am rather astonished that the Infogrames is not aware of the advertisement, since it has been printed at the back of the Limited Edition tin box. Also, the advertising specified "designers' notes"(plural) and not a "designer's note" or "designers' note". Moreover, since the Infogrames is well aware of the meaning of certain words in the gaming business, it surely does know that 'designers' notes' represent much more than a supposedly personal note from Sid Mayer and Jeff Briggs. Designers' notes are usually a rather thorough account of the makers on mechanics, making and working of the game that enables fans to get that extra info they would otherwise have to dig for themselves. Most of the Civ3 fans bought Limited Edition precisely because of that and they are rather disappointed at your the way Infogrames treatment. Since there has been quite a discussion about that on fan forums, I suggest that your company sends official explanation (but a real one) and/or apology to Apolyton, biggest Civ3 fan site online. You may send your communication
to markg@apolyton.net

i got no reply to this yet. scientist wrote another letter to infogrames and you may find it here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=5

. i tried to ask mark to post this as a newsitem but he (for the first time since i joined polly) simply ignored my PM. mark, if you do not want 'hate threads', that's fine. this, however, is not a hate thread. i am actually sick of people claiming that civ 3 is broken. i absolutely love playing it and i have no major gripes. what i absolutely dislike is infogrames attitude. i say we first start an email campaign to mrs. bushkin. email campaign is nothing illegal, so you need not worry....

if any of the LE purchasers think that i am overreacting, please let me know. i am amazed that they cannot even write 'sorry'.
if you do think that i am right, please write them to

nbushkin@us.infogrames.com

MarkG · November 30, 2001, 04:35

since you've decided to start a new thread, i've closed the old one.

Dan posted the original news item so i forwarded your pm to him....

LaRusso · November 30, 2001, 04:37

thank you. sorry if i misunderstood your silence.

smellymummy · November 30, 2001, 04:45

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
if you do think that i am right, please write them to

nbushki..@.....ames.com

if they fail to properly address this, we may contemplate other steps, such as class action.....

Well posting the e-mail address IMO is kind of reckless. Within a few weeks, if not a few days, that bushkin email box will be filled up with so much junk, flames, praises, marriage proposals, and who knows what else, that legitimate e-mail will be more than likely ignored.

Not that I'm bashing what you're doing, in fact do what you need to do. False advertising is wrong, and it's a shame that infogrames mislead thousands of devoted civ fans like that.

I've always thought infogrammes was okay as far as game publishers go, but recently dark marks just seem to keep pilling up on them. See what greed does?

LaRusso · November 30, 2001, 04:47

Quote:

Originally posted by smellymummy

Well posting the e-mail address IMO is kind of reckless. Within a few weeks, if not a few days, that bushkin email box will be filled up with so much junk, flames, praises, marriage proposals, and who knows what else, that legitimate e-mail will be more than likely ignored.

Not that I'm bashing what you're doing, in fact do what you need to do. False advertising is wrong, and it's a shame that infogrames mislead thousands of devoted civ fans like that.

smellymummy, i also manage a general email addy for the university. whoever wants to rant at us, rants to me. it is manageable. if she ignores the emails, we will switch to another corporate contact. greed does take you far, but only so far.

Slocombe · November 30, 2001, 09:00

LaRusso - I don't think you are over-reacting.

What you are saying needs saying.

Misrepresentation of goods is illegal in most countries and I think you have a good case for these "Designer[']s['] Note[s]".

I think an analogy of the meaning of Designers Notes vs. the poor excuse which actually came with the LE would be something like, in this imaginary advert for a new car:

"The new Ford Pinto carries the latest developments in fuel system monitoring and driver feedback" i.e. it has a petrol gauge.

What b*llsh!t!

Fight on, I say.

LaRusso · November 30, 2001, 09:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Slocombe
"The new Ford Pinto carries the latest developments in fuel system monitoring and driver feedback" i.e. it has a petrol gauge.

Hehe, that one ended with punitive damages.
If you want to help, please send them an email or two (of course, if you are a LE buyer). I know that the right amount of angry mails inevitably makes them talk a bit differently.....

randomturn · November 30, 2001, 10:21

I am also annoyed that there was no special scenario in the LE as promised. There are no scenarios at all, but that's another story. I heard someone say that the talk of a special LE scenario stopped before shipment, but I bought the LE before I heard that the scenario wasn't included, and I imagine a lot of other people did as well. Very dishonest, and I can't imagine ever buying another Infogrammes game.

Kaak · November 30, 2001, 14:56

As i'm sure you have seen, IGs response to acts that were hardly even questionable resulted in legal action. They set the precident, but you should follow "suit". Some nice class action litigation is more than fair. How many LE games were shipped? multiply that by the, what, $10-$15 price difference and make IG pay for their false advertising and deceptive practices. Seriously, you should look into it!

Libertarian · November 30, 2001, 18:47

Quote:

I've always thought infogrammes was okay as far as game publishers go, but recently dark marks just seem to keep pilling up on them. See what greed does?

Greed? What's wrong with greed? It is man's greatest motivator, and is, in and of itself, ethically pure. It is because of our own "greed" that we complain, or seek out the sort of justice that the OP seeks.

I don't think greed is Infograme's problem. I think their problem is the opposite of greed — no, not charity. Charity is the opposite of hate. The opposite of greed is self-loathing. It leads to mediocrity and sloth. Its victims act like water, seeking the path of least resistance.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Bereta_Eder · November 30, 2001, 19:48

WEEEEE ARE THE CHAMPIONS MY FRIEEEEND
AND WEEEEEE'LL KEEP ON FIGHTING 'TILL THE EEEND

Go LaRusso

(I provide moral support).

BTW can we get the LE in other countries except USA and Canada? Anyone knows?

War4ever · November 30, 2001, 19:54

i agree with kaak...its a matter of principle.....

kittenOFchaos · November 30, 2001, 19:58

Only if you pay to get it shipped to where-ever you did...I did...and it EVENTUALLY arrived...a great game that with patching and add-ons will be even better...

However the designer note was piss-poor...in civ2 and civ1 the manual had a very nice designer note section...

Zanzin · November 30, 2001, 20:12

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

BTW can we get the LE in other countries except USA and Canada? Anyone knows?

Yeah, it was released in Australia.

Anyway, keep going with this La Russo. To put in a "designer note" instead of the advertised "designers notes" is an absolute travesty. If what they put in was the "designer note", where was the advertised "signed letter from Sid and Jeff"? I hope this wasn't another case of Sid and Jeff being lazy....most likely though, it is a problem at the publishers end

Ralf · November 30, 2001, 20:12

Boy, am I glad what I did a last minute cancel on that LE-version.

Actually, I did that only 2-3 days before the official US-release. IF they would have accept foreign pre-bookings, then my LE-version would have cost almost 80 dollars, with transport-fees and taxes included. Twice the prize any ordinary fullprice game bought by local dealers.

I would have find myself wasting 40+ dollars, basically for that tin-box alone. That flimsy poster, the useless & unwanted promotion-CD, and that single page Sid-letter, I simply dont count at all.

Kautilya · November 30, 2001, 20:40

Well a few of us had guessed that the one page letter was the "designer notes" so I am not very surprised. It's still a complete fraud of course. For that matter trying to market a standard 6 minute preview video as a "making of Civ" CD is pretty deceitful as well.

gaikokujin · November 30, 2001, 22:10

Doh! (slaps his forehead) Why didn't I think of that? "Designers notes" means, "Notes from the designers"...saying 'Hi Ya' or whatever. And who tracks English-language apostrophe rules, anyway?

Ka Shima · November 30, 2001, 22:57

LaRusso:
While I agree most whole-heartedly with the intent of your email, I do see where you can be greeted with a less than pleasing response.
In any correspondence, email included it is imperative that you produce a nearly error free document. I noticed several grammatical errors, or errors where you were saying one thing, and then started to change your line of thought. I can see it going either way.
Anyway, it doesn't hurt to have someone proof read, when you send a sort of offical complaint.
Anyway, good luck. It is because of the complaints on this forum that I was able to save a few bucks and switch to the standard version. I already own a couple of cookie jars, so not getting a cookie tin didn't bother me that much.
Anyway, can I say anyway anymore, anyway?

Venger · December 1, 2001, 03:42

Quit your whining LaRusso, that's all you ever do. Everyone is sick of it, blah blah, blah blah...strap that on sonny!

Things not so perfect in Civ3 land? Am I to understand you are up in arms over something ancillary to the game, and not the game itself? After all your petty posturing about people concerned about things actually IN the game, you go on ad infinitum about some trivial thing you didn't get in the box!?!?!

Jeez...

Heh, for the record, I'm just teasing you, but it's about time you got your ox gored. Frankly, I find the full color tech napkin (poster my ass!!) more offensive than the lack of designer notes - dude the designers never even finished the game, much less the fuçkin notes!

Here's some designer notes:

[Designer1] Yeah, and this is when we decided that the air superiority missions shouldn't work for the human player
[Desinger2] It was real up in the air, and since we couldn't make it work before release, we just bagged it and released as is, I mean, there were SO many other things we had to do...
[Designer1] That's right. I had precious few hours to scramble all the keyboard shortcuts...
[Designer2] Yep, we learned that one from Microsoft - if you change around how stuff sorta works, and move things around, people get the "look and feel" of a new release.
[Designer1] I had loads of keys to redo to meet this vision - we originally had the r key make roads and railroads if roads were already there, but we decided that was too "Civ2"
[Designer2] So we changed it, and we also put in a few other command easter eggs, like the Shift-G we changed to revolution, rather than what someone might think of as a GoTo command
[Designer1] Yeah! That was great! You should have seen the one guy we had beta testing, he nearly panicked trying to move his worker to the capital, he nearly caused a revolution!
[Desinger2] That was a great beta test game! Actually, that was our only beta test game...

Venger

Ragnarok · December 1, 2001, 04:13

Not quite what we had in mind..

But mostly acurate.

Calorman · December 1, 2001, 08:03

I mostly agree with you LaRusso and I think your aims are justified.

Quote:

Originally posted by Zanzin

To put in a "designer note" instead of the advertised "designers notes" is an absolute travesty.

Taking this stance is pointless. You're arguing a case of grammer by implying that "notes" indicates several pages of work. Sorry but I just don't think that's a fair statement to make.
Having 'notes' of something could just as well mean one paragraph of information as it could 10 pages. It's interchangable of course, a note could refer to just one piece of paper sure. But the point is that whatever word is used is not the be all and end all. You cannot simply assume that because they stated 'notes' that they specifically meant several pages of words. Not that I'm disagreeing with you Zanzin that the notes are woefully inadequate. I just want to point out that touting this statement in an offical complaint, possibly involving legal issues, is unlikey to get you anywhere.

{EDIT} This is just my take on it of course. I don't know anything about law so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong (and a stupid moron).

Calorman · December 1, 2001, 08:05

Quote:

[SIZE=1] [Designer1] I had loads of keys to redo to meet this vision - we originally had the r key make roads and railroads if roads were already there, but we decided that was too "Civ2"

Venger

Haha, so true.

And I think we're the beta testers btw.

randomturn · December 1, 2001, 13:44

Calorman are you kidding? "Designer Notes" has a very specific and clear meaning to the gaming community, and Infogrammes knew very well what that meaning was. This was deliberate deceit.

Elowan · December 1, 2001, 14:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Venger
Frankly, I find the full color tech napkin (poster my ass!!) more offensive than the lack of designer notes - dude the designers never even finished the game, much less the fuçkin notes!

Here's some designer notes:

[Designer1] Yeah, and this is when we decided that the air superiority missions shouldn't work for the human player
[Desinger2] It was real up in the air, and since we couldn't make it work before release, we just bagged it and released as is, I mean, there were SO many other things we had to do...
[Designer1] That's right. I had precious few hours to scramble all the keyboard shortcuts...
[Designer2] Yep, we learned that one from Microsoft - if you change around how stuff sorta works, and move things around, people get the "look and feel" of a new release.
[Designer1] I had loads of keys to redo to meet this vision - we originally had the r key make roads and railroads if roads were already there, but we decided that was too "Civ2"
[Designer2] So we changed it, and we also put in a few other command easter eggs, like the Shift-G we changed to revolution, rather than what someone might think of as a GoTo command
[Designer1] Yeah! That was great! You should have seen the one guy we had beta testing, he nearly panicked trying to move his worker to the capital, he nearly caused a revolution!
[Desinger2] That was a great beta test game! Actually, that was our only beta test game...

Venger

ROTFLMAO!! True! Designer Notes my @ss!

E_T · December 3, 2001, 02:40

LaRusso:
I Support you! This is the first time that I've paid full price for a Wide Release Beta, and I've got the S.E.

Venger:
Designer #3: And the beta tester didn't even finish, because of the bugs that he had found. We couldn't do anything about that, as it was to "Go Gold" that afternoon.
Designer #1: Yeah, that was a close one! We didn't want to miss out on the release party, set for that afternoon, so we figured that the public will do the beta test for us.
Designer #2: That way, we could try to work on the bugs that we knew about, and keep an eye on the major CIV Forums for any other bugs. That way, with a head start, we could come out with a patch that would get most of the bugs and we would appear to have been really working hard on the problems.
Designer #3: Sheer Genius!

Capt Dizle · December 3, 2001, 02:44

I find it hard to believe that three designers were used for this mess. Oh, you must be counting Brian Reynolds and the two guys who left with him.

Kaak · December 3, 2001, 04:09

i don't know, but if you do decide to file a class action suit, let me know and i'll go buy the LE, just so i can have the satisfaction of sueing their asses...

LaRusso · December 3, 2001, 04:30

Kaak, I guess that the class action is not really possible since there was a possibility to return it to the store and get a refund. Anyway, I really do not care about class action, I edited my first post - class action reference was supposed to be a joke.

Realistically, the most we can hope for is something resembling designer's notes coming from Firaxis. I reckon IG does not give rat's ass about the whole thing.

venger: i disagree with you about the gameplay. everything but the game itself is crap (manual, tech tree, etc.) but i really enjoy playing it.

there are some valid whining points (air sup bug, no ability to mass group workers, etc.) but combat-related whining is really really naff....

ka-shima: thank you for your suggestions. i never heard, though, that a complaint must be as stylistically pleasing as any of the e. hemingway's novels. i mean, it's a right to whine, rather democratic and availiable even to school dropouts

techumseh · December 4, 2001, 23:43

Do you have consumer protection laws in the States that could be invoked? This looks like a bait-and-switch scam. Maybe someone could investigate laying a charge?

marcuspeddle · December 4, 2001, 23:58

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

BTW can we get the LE in other countries except USA and Canada? Anyone knows?

LE is the only version I've seen released in Korea. Very strange.