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Old December 4, 2001, 20:36   #31
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I'm certainly not saying that it would be a good unit. However, the Mongols were MAGNIFICENT militarily, at least for a while. But they fell behind technologically, at least as far as anything but military technology was concerned, and just couldn't hold together. And while horses are of course necessary I don't see iron being that important. Besides, if you look at the terrain inhabited by the Mongols, just how much production could there have been? But even with such low production, they still managed to build huge armies. I guess that's why I made my suggestion. It seemed that they had everything else so far against them, that their expansion can only be explained by a timely and impressive UU.
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Old December 4, 2001, 20:54   #32
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Spanish:
Consider adding Cristobal Colon (I believe this is the proper name) as a leader. Though not originally Spanish, he did serve to spark their greatest expansion. The shunned government should definitely be democracy. Sorry, my Spanish friends. The conquistador should be a mounted unit w/ 2 movement points, as the horses the Spanish rode were a significant part of the fear they created in the local populace. I guess it should replace the musketman, even though it's more mobile. However, it should upgrade to cavalry. This should help balance the unit, as the Spanish will be using a weaker defensive unit in the early days of gunpowder, and will have to rebuild their defense through riflemen after nationalism.

Mongols:
I'm tempted to ask that you make them favor despotism. Other than that, I think this one looks great.

Arabs:
The capital should probably be Mecca anyway, though Baghdad was really the more influential city in a commercial sense. I like the mamelukes, but I think you should require iron (they were armed with steel) instead of horses (they rode camels). I'm not certain that Arabs should shun democracy, as there are a couple of working examples of such governments. I suggest instead that they shun Communism, since the enforced secularism and egalitarianism of such governments is VERY incompatible with known Arab religious and commercial attitudes. Favoring Monarchy seems fine to me. You might wish to add Saud as a leader.

Incas:
I'm as lost as you are for the unique unit. I do seem to recall, however, that the Incas had some excellent runners who served as messengers. As such, a 1/1/2 warrior unit might be more appropriate. I think the Inca should favor Monarchy over Communism, although recent history involving their descendants might suggest otherwise. I'm also not sure about their characteristics... perhaps they should be commercial instead of expansionist?

That's all that's in my head right now.
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Old December 4, 2001, 22:01   #33
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Further thoughts re:Mameluke unit; I don't feel it adequately represents Arab civilization, in part because it was a unit associated with just one part of the Arab world, Egypt, and also because it was drawn mainly from a non-Arab slave group. The camel unit, however, would not only be representative of the initial Arab conquest, but would also be in line with the Reconquest of the Hejaz,and the modern era reclamation of the Ottoman provinces in Greater Arabia and the Levant. Of course it would also be a useful unit for any Civ operating in dryer landscapes- perhaps a bonus movement in deserts or dryer climes?

As for the conquistador: in terms of military history this just doesn't feature. The Spanish tercio was the unit that won decisive battles in Europe for Spain, such as Pavia:

"Of all the fighting men in Europe, the quintessential soldier was Spanish. The Spanish tercio, a large infantry "regiment" (the word is used loosely in this time period) formed the backbone of the most successful army in the world. It contained pikes, some sword-and-buckler men (at least earlier in the century), and light firearms organized under captains and colonels. Spain had an efficient organization for recruiting from its own provinces and keeping these units "topped up." The endless campaigns in Italy and the Low Countries made them formidable troops, with high confidence and esprit de corps. And at the end of the century, Maurice of Nassau, a landmark figure in military history, would build on this foundation and the inspiration of classical Rome to create the beginnings of modern, infantry-based military drill and discipline. "

www.lepg.org/warfare.htm

Other than the personal qualities of Cortes or Pizarro, the conquistador is a conflation and concoction of a romantic view of history. They could not have achieved so much without the aid of indigenous enemies of the Mixteca and the Inca, and of course those potent generals, smallpox and measles.
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Old December 5, 2001, 05:44   #34
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Well, there's one thing for choosing conquistador over tercio - people know what conquistadors were. I think that we should use the obvious guiding principle of Firaxis, ie. leaders and UUs people are likely to know beforehand.
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Old December 5, 2001, 06:53   #35
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This has been debated before. Picking Conquistador as the Spanish UU is to perpetuate an absurd stereotype. If something, Conquistador is a military leader. But hey, we are tired of pointing this out, so go ahead guys....

About shunning Democracy, while it's true the Spanish have not precisely championed at that, it is obvious that the shunned gov't should be Communism. Let's not forget that the Courts of Castile (early XII century) was one of the first (if not the very first) truly democratic parliament to ever function in Europe. A pity it had such a short life
On the other hand, anti-Communism has been the perennial obsession and driving force of Spanish policies for more than 100 years. Communism never had a chance to succeed in Spain.
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Old December 5, 2001, 10:05   #36
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And, yeah, go with the Tercios... so the public is ignorant? Then maybe the public will learn something. If you put in the conquistador as a unit you are but promoting ignorance and misconceptions.

Tercios! Tercios! Tercios!
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Old December 5, 2001, 10:34   #37
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But since there is no smallpox unit, don't we need something to explain Spain winning? Hmm... smallpox unit...
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Old December 5, 2001, 10:45   #38
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I suppose it's too bad that the designers took out the disease espionage mission... Too bad there's no culture shock event (in the same vein as a golden age) either...
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Old December 5, 2001, 11:10   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caesar2760
But since there is no smallpox unit, don't we need something to explain Spain winning? Hmm... smallpox unit...
Tercios...
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Old December 5, 2001, 14:01   #40
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Oh oh, spanish crowd rides in, warlike with their tiny steppe-horses and composite bows... .

Welcome, I awaited you

As for govs: I also tend to stay with Communism.
As for the Tercios/Conquistador problem:
I wouldn't call it "ignorance" if we keep the Conquistadors, it's not because I don't see your argument. But UUs should possibly carry an association possibility and, call it ignorant if you wish, the Tercio is no really a popular unit...
Most people don't care if the soldiers in the crowd of Conquistadors were actually "Tercios". So please live with it, the Conquistadors for most people are representative for the phenomenon of the conquests in the New World. Putting it a bit weird: The Conquistador should give a feeling for tercios, the native allies, smallpox, the confused reaction of the natives, etc. Tercios simply don't give that feeling. But go on with the dispute, I'm generally not a stubborn person who doesn't listen.

molly: I'll again go inside and think about the mameluk, but you're about to convince me

Bad Ax: Again, I have to let you wait until later in the evening, mum's kitchen calls. It's nothing personal, you just happen to have written again the last post I looked at.
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Old December 5, 2001, 14:18   #41
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Whaddaya mean, composite bows???

*fires harquebus as werna*

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Old December 5, 2001, 15:29   #42
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Tiny steppe-horses? Composite bows? What have you been smoking lately?

If you really saw our argument, you would agree that the Tercio, not the Conquistador, should be the Spanish UU. The rest is utter ignorance, like it or not. Those who know have picked the Tercios and given cogent reasons for it. But if the end the prime criterion is popularity, not history, I think you guys should seriously consider the bullfighter.
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Old December 5, 2001, 15:37   #43
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Bah! If were going with stereotypes, we should have a redneck hillbilly for the Americans, a drunk vodka drinker for the Russians, a frog waving a white flag for the french and a cook for the Italians.
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Old December 5, 2001, 15:45   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by El Awrence
Bah! If were going with stereotypes, we should have a redneck hillbilly for the Americans, a drunk vodka drinker for the Russians, a frog waving a white flag for the french and a cook for the Italians.



The cook waving a white flag as well

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Old December 5, 2001, 15:55   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee
The cook waving a white flag as well
A white DISHCLOTH in any case... and if the editor allows monthly time changes, each December the Italians have the option to bombard from their cities with old furniture any hostile units in range.
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Old December 5, 2001, 20:39   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bad Ax

Arabs:
The capital should probably be Mecca anyway, though Baghdad was really the more influential city in a commercial sense.
This would be akin to Spain having Rome as its capital, or England/Britain having Canterbury; the capital should reflect the political continuity, and as such, I believe you have a choice of Damascus or Baghdad or Cordoba or Cairo, with my preferences being for Baghdad, as having a longer and earlier pedigree (though not earlier than Damascus).
I believe that the shunned form of government should be democracy; unfortunately through a combination of factors, few if any of the 'new' Arab states have enjoyed a fully functioning democracy. Some are quasi-democratic republics, some authoritarian absolutist monarchies, some a combination of socialist and absolutist (Libya) and others just outright dictatorships, along semi-tribal lines (Iraq).

Re:Mamelukes-

The Mamelukes Rise to Power

' The latter Sultans of the Ayyubid dynasty formed a guard of elite fighter slaves that were known as Mamelukes. Most of these Mamelukes were of Turkish, Afghan or Circassian origins. Their original countries were stricken by the waves of Mongol invaders who inflicted chaos and turmoil on the Muslim population. Much of the lost children were caught by slave traders. The Ayyubid sultans bought many of these children, and formed from them an elite, well-trained, well-educated force. When the power of the Ayyubid dynasty waned, one of those Mamelukes rose to power and assumed the Sultanate of Egypt and Syria. The name of the first Mameluke Sultan was Sayf al-Din Qutuz . The moment he assumed power, he was confronted by the Mongol hordes who destroyed the Islamic Caliphate in Baghdad, massacred the bulk of its Muslim population and moved to subdue the Syrian towns of Aleppo, Homs and Damascus. '

This is why I have difficulty with the Mamelukes being the Arab unique unit; they are of differing ethnic origins in the main, and for me it would be rather like having the Gurkha or the Sikh as the English/British fighting unit. If you consider the desert origins of the Arabs, the beast that symbolizes desert power is the camel. A useful beast of burden, capable of travelling long distances on little water, edible in an emergency, supplying milk...couple it with a well-armed motivated Arab soldier, and you have a winning combination,as the Byzantine and Sassanid empires discovered.
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Old December 6, 2001, 13:43   #47
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The italian CSA should be Opportunistic; before being destroyed they get all their cities back and ally with the winner...


Bad Ax: The problem with Colomo/Colon/Columbus etc. is that he ended up as a complete loser. He didn't conquer much, got no gold, lost therefore his ranks and finally Vespucci robbed him the honor of name-bearer for america... that, along with the fact that he was originally italian doesn't make him a good leader for the spanish. I think the Conquistador is good as it is (note to spanish friends: you can propose at least specifics for the Tercio. the name then would still be ignorant "Conquistador" but at least it would be a tercio in effect)

about mongols: i don't think it's ever a good idea to make despotism the favorite gov. that would probably make a civ fall behind later on.

about arabs: I'll stick to Mecca as capital although I think Baghdad would make a better one. But if we want correct starting locations, we'd have to put it in the same tile as Babylon, that wouldn't be good. Damascus is a choice we'd have to test out, yet I still think that would be also too close. Cairo or Cordoba aren't good because Spain and Egypt as starting locations for arabs sounds weird, beside the fact that there too are other civs starting nearby.
They definitely shun Democracy

incans: yes, the incan messagers were quite unique. yet, we already have the jaguar warrior as a 1.1.2 unit and the runners were no military unit at all. I think the UU we have is fine in the end, it's different from aztec, maya and zulu and yet gives some flair for incas...


About Mameluks: I'll rename the Mameluk to Camel Rider. After all, it's probably more "general" for arabs and still can be recognized as arab unit.
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Old December 8, 2001, 00:17   #48
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Might I suggest the Hashishim, or Assassin, as the UU for the Arabs. This would function as a fast swordsman. There are already attack and defense swordsmen UUs, as the Immortals and Legionaires, respectively. The Hashishim were feared during the Crusades, so much that they became part of our language.
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Old December 9, 2001, 16:06   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wernazuma III
LoD: I think, the Polish Civ has been discussed at length now, so I suppose, you now have a more or less "definitive version" already. If so, just send me a pm or mail me. The polish Civ will be in part 4 of the finalization project, so there is still time to discuss it in another own thread if you think that will still bring up good new ideas.
As a matter of fact, I have most of the data collected. I will e-mail everything to you once I'm done. If you want to keep informed about the progress of data gathering see this page (hey, I know it's in Polish, but most of the text is pretty much self explanatory ).
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Old December 9, 2001, 17:18   #50
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404-strona nje znaleziona

Did you type the link correctly?
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"The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
"Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.
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Old December 10, 2001, 13:00   #51
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I didn't, in fact. It has been edited now.
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Old December 11, 2001, 00:55   #52
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Arab: I think that the Mameluks should be the Arab UU. Camel rider in my mind is a very limited and often romanticized unit.

Instead of Mekkah as the capital, maybe Cairo could be used, although I would prefer Bagdad.

As for the Inca, am not sure what unit would be their best UU unit. I know that they had archers, which were considered their elite unit, but I don't know what they were called. Also you might want to move cities like Ollayantambo and Pisac up the line, so they are built sooner, as they are in the Inca heartland. Also you forgot important Inca cities like Vitcos and Vilcambra which are major Inca cities.
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Old December 13, 2001, 06:30   #53
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A few thoughts.

I'd vote for Camel Rider over Mameluke any day. A big reason being that the Mamelukes were not in fact Arabs at all, but mercenaries or slaves from the steppes. It would be like having Swiss Halberdiers as the Italian UU. Plus having the Camel Rider is very interesting - its nice to have cavalry type units that don't require the Horse resource.

Regarding Terico vs. Conquistador, what about a third option, such as a ship? Spanish Galleons are just as well known and evocative as Conquistadors. One possibility, ditching the regular unit Caravel from the game, and replacing it with something better like Cog or Galley (as opposed to the earlier Trireme), and then having the Caravel as the Spanish UU, to give them a jump on naval exploration. Caravels only had a small window of use in real world history, which is okay for a UU, but bad for a general unit.

Makkah should definitely be the Arab capital. For starters, it only makes sense to have the Arab capital actually be in Arabia! Think of the thousands of years prior to the 600s AD. Other places, like Cairo or Baghdad, bump into other civs too closely, if you're playing on an earth map. Makkah was the original capital for the Muslims. True, it moved, but you could argue for Constantinople instead of Rome for the Romans if you go that way. Both are important, but I'd prefer original capital over longest capital if I had to chose between the two criterion.

Horse Rider is a good choice for the Mongols. I would advocate a rather wierd thing for them though, since they were such an unusal civ. Give them an extra-powerful unit, but make up for it by giving them only one civ attribute - militaristic - instead of two. As for the extra unit power, Horse Riders should have a movement of 4. They could outrun anything, and disengage from any battle they wanted. That would make the Mongols a really interesting and fun civ to play.

(I would argue a similar thing for the Vikings, the other "barbarian" civ - an extra powerful unit, but only the Militaristic attribute)

Who's making the graphics for all the UU's, anyways? I imagine most of them could be pinched from Age of Empires or Age of Kings, or CTP1/2, in the same way that a Slinger unit is being made right now from Age of Empires graphics. Is anyone working on that?
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Old December 14, 2001, 17:35   #54
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Ummm, camel rider doesn't sound too hot. I don't think the Moors who occupied Spain used camels. There's a reason there's a breed of horses called Arabians.....

As for stats, speed 3 is immensely powerful, I can't see also giving the unit an attack of 5. I think 4/1/3 is more appropriate.

The real problem is, who exactly are the "arabs", and which period are you trying to represent, ancient or middle ages? The stats you give for the UU indicate a middle ages cavalry type unit.

This thread is actually proving a bit educational, I've been doing some browsing on web sites. I found that the Mamlukes were more or less created by Salah al-Din ("Saladin"), around 1200 AD, during the time he ruled in Egypt. They were slaves, sort of, Turkish mercenaries, sort of. However, they were allowed to own property, which seems similar to the Roman practice of allowing slaves to earn and keep their own money, possibly even buying their own freedom.

There have been a great many civilizations in the middle east though, such as the Arameans, centered on Damascus. Their language was Aramaic, which persisted and spread through the region from 1200 BC up to around 700 AD, despite being conquered and sort of assimilated by the Assyrians around 700 BC. In fact, Aramaic was designated the official language of the persian empire around 500 BC, as by then it had become almost universally the language of commerce in the region.

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Old December 14, 2001, 20:56   #55
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Islam's capital: first, Medina, then Damascus, then, Baghdad. Not Makkah- Abu Bakr, Mohammed's successor, a rightly guided Caliph, ruled from Medina, as did Umar, Uthman and Ali.

Camels:

'Bruce Ingham - Technicalities and Terminology of Raiding and Warfare as Revealed by Bedouin Oral Narrative

These thoughts result from an examination of stories of raiding and warfare from various bedouin sources, but mainly from the Al Zafir, Al Murrah and Rwalah. These texts make an interesting source of vocabulary and reveal something of the nature of desert warfare and military tactics. The suwalif 'stories' mention three types of aggressive activity against other tribes. These are hanshalah 'horse or camel stealing on foot', ghazu 'camel raiding' and harb 'military attack, war'. '

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~neareast/middle.htm
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Old December 14, 2001, 22:35   #56
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More on camels, desert warfare and Arabs:

Sir John Glubb

'The key to all the early operations, against Persia and against Syria alike, is that the Persians and Byzantines could not move in the desert, being mounted on horses. The Muslims were like a sea-power, cruising offshore in their ships, whereas the Persians and Byzantines alike could only take up positions on the shore (that is, the cultivated area) unable to launch out to "sea" and engage the enemy in his own desert element. Similarly the Arabs, like the Norse or Danish pirates who raided England, were at first afraid to move inland far from their "ships." Raiding the areas on the "shores" of the desert, they hastened back to their own element when danger threatened.'

(The Great Arab Conquests, 1963)

and

Joel Carmichael

'There is a remarkable resemblance between the strategy of the Bedouin and that of the modern sea power. Viewed from the vantage point of nomads, the desert, which only they could make use of, was like a vast ocean on which they controlled the only vessels. The Bedouin could use it for supplies and communications - and as a haven when defeated. They could appear from its depths whenever they wished and slip back again at will. This gave them enormous mobility and resilience, as long as they were moving against sedentary communities .'

(Shaping of the Arabs, 1967)

The armies that conquered the Persian Empire and Eastern Roman Empire:

'For more than a century Arab soldiers fought with primitive weapons -- the personal sword, dagger, lance -- and wore no defensive armor or helmets. These conquering forces had no staff organization, no siegecraft capabilities, and no logistics trains. Tactics were almost nonexistent as these armies relied upon small hit-and-run raids, the razzias, and ambushes as their primary tactical maneuvers. Mobility was limited as most of the army moved on foot and fought as infantry accompanied by small contingents of camel cavalry. Even their size was small. The force that attacked and subdued Egypt (640-642) numbered no more than 4,000 men.
Arab military development was strongly influenced by experience and contact with other military cultures, most particularly by their wars with the Byzantines and Persians. Khaild Ibn al-Walid created dense infantry formations after the Byzantine pattern. These new formations were organized into archer, infantry, and lance cavalry units and placed under the command of proven combat leaders who replaced the tribal and clan chiefs. He created the first Arab quartermaster corp, and even organized the women to carry knives and short swords to be used for stripping and dispatching the enemy wounded.'

The importance of the camel:

Horses were rare in Arabia (although not unknown), and the early Arab armies relied upon corps of special racing camels for transport and cavalry. The wars with the Persians brought the Arabs into contact with the horse, and the warriors of Allah were quick to grasp the importance of the horse as a military asset. Since Arab horses were brought into regular contact with their camel corps, the smell of the camel had no effect on them. The presence of camel cavalry, however, often spooked the horses of the enemy and weakened the opponent's force.'

The Muslim soldier:

'By the 10th century, the chronicler al-Tabari recorded that the Arab warrior carried the following items of equipment: mail armor, breastplate, helmet, leg and arm guards, complete horse armor, small shield, lance, sword, mace, battle axe, bow case with two bows, a quiver of 30 arrows, and two spare bow strings. Added to this military capability was now a first-rate siegecraft capability. In equipment and tactics, the armies of Islam had become indistinguishable from the armies of Byzantium.'

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/...z/gabr0016.htm


If the Arab Civ begins at Medina, or Baghdad, or Damascus. a desert U.U., perhaps with extra movement, would be an advantage. The defeat of Marcus Crassus at Carrhae was in part due also to the existence of a well-supplied camel train, loaded up with large amounts of stones for slingers and arrows.

I hope I have proved the case for a camel U.U. now- it's also worth bearing in mind that the camel can be eaten (it tastes a lot better than horse, believe me) its milk does not curdle, and it does of course have the advantage of surviving on little water and scrubby vegetation.
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Old December 15, 2001, 06:51   #57
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Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part1)
Quote:
Originally posted by Wernazuma III
The Mongols
Cities:
Choybalsan
Horloogiyn Choybalsan was the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of Mongolian People's Republic. It is a little funny to see his name in Mongolia under Gengiz.

Certainly, one Mongolian city is now named after Choybalsan. Until 1941, that city was named Bayan Tumen (sp?) (and until 1921 - St.Beyse (sp?) ).

And what about Ulaan-Baator, the recent capital of Mongolia? Yes, Ulaan-Baator means "red warrior" however it is the country's capital now. Why not to include it in the list?
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Old December 15, 2001, 06:59   #58
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molly: I didn't know that the seat of the first Caliphs was Medina. That makes them No.1 choice for capital then. I'll change it in the list


datakodin: interesting fact I'll change Choybalsan to Bayan Tumen. Ulan-Bataar is not in the list? Must have been lost by accident.
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Old December 15, 2001, 12:58   #59
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Quote:
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about arabs:

They definitely shun Democracy
My point is that some Arab nations are at least *trying* for Democratic governments in 3 nations. So it seems that they definitely aren't in the business of shunning that governmental system. Communism, on the other hand, is a system that hasn't even been attempted in the region, and it won't be because its enforced secularism is antithetical to Arabian mores. Democracy, with its tendency to foster commercial development and materialism, at least has a shot. That's my justification. If someone can actually make an argument instead of just reiterating the statement "Arabs shun Democracy", I'd really appreciate it.
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Old December 15, 2001, 15:47   #60
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Which government we decide to be shunned by a certain civ obviously doesn't necessarily mean that they NEVER tried to establish the government. For example the french shunned gov. is monarchy. The french had hundreds of years of Monarchy! It was simply chosen because of the deep impact of the french revolution. For the arabs: Some democratic tries and "first steps" in a few parts of a largely despotic arab world is not enough to make them shun any other gov.
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