Stop the America-bashing!

[siredgar]

So what if we have a monkey for a President??? At least we're not elitists about who can run for office! Anyone can run for President in the U.S., even monkeys. What's the big deal?

Seriously though, I don't necessarily agree with U.S. policy in Israel-Palestine either. But what are YOU doing about it? You think it's easy pulling apart these freaks from tearing each other apart??? The U.S. inherited the legacy that the British left behind.

According to the publication "The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs", the U.S. has sent over $84 billion in aid to Israel since 1949 and over $45 billion in aid to Egypt since 1979. Those are MY tax dollars! Do you want to flip the bill?

Tell me, what is your bright idea for peace in the Middle East? How are you going to preserve the state of Israel and yet provide independence to the Palestinians? What's your brilliant plan that statesmen and thinktanks haven't already come up with?

As for Afghanistan, weren't you there, too? If the U.S. coalition didn't dismantle Al Qaeda, do you think they'd stop terrorist attacks? They attack Europeans, too, you should know. The U.S. was very careful not to kill innocent civilians, but it did. You can't avoid that in a war.

The Iranian hostage crisis is still vivid in the memories of many U.S. policymakers. It's not easy to forget. Anyhow, there's evidence that they're not only harboring, but initiating terrorism throughout the world (including Europe).

Gadhafi shut up after we bombed him, didn't he? I don't see the Libyans running around bombing planes anymore. Now he's begging for forgivance like a little girl.

Anyhow, the Arabs don't like Gadhafi that much either:
http://www.middleeastwire.com/libya/...305_meno.shtml

[Beren]

America should have been more careful in Afghanistan, they should pressure Israel, first by arms embargo, then by pulling out embassadeurs, then by a trade embargo. I regret Holland joined the 'coalition against terror.'
Ghadaffi is repeatedly trying to be accepted worldwide. Start of the Palestinian actions against Israel a hijacked plane landed in Libya. Ghadaffi himself tried to let the Palestinians stop their actions. Though he failed, it means something.
Still Ghadaffi is on America's black list of people against whom they should use nuclear weapons (as for Russia and China.)
I knew that Ghadaffi was not really popular, but how does that change your point?

PS: The picture of Bush was more ment as a joke and I'm sorry if I offended you. But you'll must admit that he looks a bit like a monkey,

[siredgar]

So, Beren, in the end, you continue to complain about U.S. foreign policy and yet haven't come up with an alternate (European) solution for any of the problems of the world. Hmmm?

As you say so yourself, we taught Gadhafi not to f**k around. Now, who's the boss? Iran will come around, too, soon enough, on its knees that is.

[siredgar]

Bush is a chimp.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Beren
For example: Your continuant insults versus Iran make no sense at all. They don't support terror, they are sworn ennemies of the Taliban and they, initially wanted to join the war in Afghanistan

You might want to do some more research on Iran. They do support terrorism. Hezbollah is supported by the Iranians and other terrorist groups get support from them as well. Remember that shipload of weapons that the Israelis captured last year? That was from Iran. Iran is one of the world's foremost supporters of terrorism and that's why they are a part of Bush's (unfortunately named) Axis of Evil.

[Dauphin]

When I speak ill of America I don't do it to bash Americans. It seems to be a common mis-conception amongst Americans that to speak ill of America means you must hate them. Americans seem to be averse to criticism, even of the constructive kind, and even advice.

If Europe says something the US disagrees with why can't each side respect that decision. We have different views, of course we are not going to agree, but why blow it all out of proportion?

Friends have disagreements, but deep down they are still friends and you know they will help you when push comes to shove.

[siredgar]

Is this is an apology, Sagacious Dolphin? =)

You did call us "arrogant" after all.

[lorddread]

The problem here, is that everyone is focusing on how long a nation has existed. The problem is that the civilization that existed in China or Egypt, or even England has long since vanished. The nation still exists but its way of life has changed so significantly that it can no longer be considered the original civ. Can anyone really tell me that the Chinese are the same now as they were in 3000 bc? How about the Egyptians? Are they the same civ or somply the same nation?

[lorddread]

Without getting all sentimental about WW1 and WW2, the problems with taking criticism from Europe is that you guys seem to sit back and want us to pull your bacon out of the fire and then criticize us for it.

It is sad that in a game (and we should remember that Civ is just a game) we have come to bashing ANYONES nation. In multiple threads throughout the forum I have seen people say this nation shouldn't be included for that reason, nor should this nation.

Maybe in Civ 4 they should do away with the idea of nations altogether. It will be like Alpha Centauri.

[~Vodka~]

LOL! Hah, I agree with you there. Bush is not taking action in time to stop sharon. Then again Colon Powell is supposed to do that but is "postponing" negotiations with arafat... ugh the whole fu*king world is going crazy with the middle east right at the center of it all!

[Beren]

Originally posted by siredgar
So, Beren, in the end, you continue to complain about U.S. foreign policy and yet haven't come up with an alternate (European) solution for any of the problems of the world. Hmmm?

As you say so yourself, we taught Gadhafi not to f**k around. Now, who's the boss? Iran will come around, too, soon enough, on its knees that is.

About Israel: follow Annan's ideas, send a international task force. And America should stop supporting Israel with weapons and money.

Question why should Iran come around in the first place? I have no evidence that there is anything they are doing what America accusses them. (They fight the Taliban, while America supported them. They don't refuge Taliban or Al-Qaeda warriors (they hate them,) but of course they cannot control the entire frontier. They asked help of America. America refused.) Actions against Iran? Well you could principally bomb everyone then.

Question: what were the goals of the bombing of Ghadafi? You wanted to get him out. He's still there. You can say that he doesn't terrorise the world anymore, but that is not because of America's choice. It was his own choice. He wanted recognition in the region and the rest of the world. His terrorist activities have stopped very soon.

Other alternate plans: America should stop polluting the world, like everyone else and sign the Kyoto protocol.
America should respect human rights as all other countries in the world.

You can of course always say: 'Why should we do these things when other nations don't do those things?' Please remember that America is the world's dominating power and they set an example for the rest of the world. If America acts like a basterd, other nations could act like basterds as well.

Another point: America is untrustworthy. Their intelligence service wants to spread 'strategic lies' even among allies. Any information passed on by the American government should therefore be checked. We cannot trust what they are saying...

[Beren]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
If Europe says something the US disagrees with why can't each side respect that decision. We have different views, of course we are not going to agree, but why blow it all out of proportion?

Here's one willing to do that. I think the entire attitude of America towards world problems s u c k s (Will this be censored as well as f u c k?) Still I respect American cititzens. It's not their fault. I would try to convert them to a better attitude.

Originally posted by Siredgar
Is this is an apology, Sagacious Dolphin? =)

You did call us "arrogant" after all.

Don't know what Sagacious Dolphin wants to say, but out of good respect: America is arrogant!!!!!!!

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Serb


Well, you have to ask your veterans about “Katusha”- first rocket artillery, widely used by Soviet army since 1941. You can ask about tanks IS-2 or T-34, btw T-34 is best tank of WW2 in its class. You can ask about IL-2 a legendary fighter of WW2. Many of our weaponry were unmatched for that time.
Before the war Soviet Union has supreme army, modern and experienced. Don’t you know that many German generals before the war learned in Russian military academies? Gudarian your brilliant tank tactician is one of them. He represents SOVIET tank school, because soviet tank school was the best at those times. Do you know what is the biggest tank battle of WW2? Its battle near Prohorovka, THOUSANDS tanks from both sides fight there against each other during few days!!!
So saying that we don’t have technologies and fighting only with riflemen’s is nonsense.

P.S. Germans have superior air force for the first year of war because most of our planes were destroyed on airfields during first hours of war. We have to rebuild our air force almost from nothing.

Once again we need to step back and take a clean look at history.

For the Record:
1. At the start of WWII, Russia's airforce ranked BEHIND Italy. The planes were old WWI design. Stalin fired the head of aircraft design and replaced it by the 2 men who would become famous with the MIG designs.

2. The largest tank battle was fought at Kursk.

3. When the T-34 / 85 came into production it was the best ALLIED tank. The Tiger and Panthers were a match for it.

4. The IS-2 or Joseph Stalin tank was big but not the biggest of the war, that record belonged to the Mouse (100 tons) which was so big that it had to be used as a pillbox because it destroyed roads and couldn't move through fields.

5. While Gudarian may have gone to school in Russia, the tactics he used were based on General Sherman (US Civil War fame) and modified for modern armor and vehicles.

6. The planes and parts for much of the Russian military came from Britian and the US.

Also for the record, while everyone (men and women) fought in Russia, they also killed a lot of their own people. Stalin (like Hitler) got too involved in the war. Hence the debacle at Stalingrad.

[siredgar]

Yes, but what you may not understand is that Israel has a lot of friends in Washington, including the powerful Jewish lobbying force. Anyhow, the U.S. has closer relations with Israel and they have stood by our side when we needed them. I do agree that aid and diplomatic actions should be used to restrain Israeli actions in Palestine, however.

Iran needs to stop supporting terrorism. Period. Regardless, it will have to go a long way before the U.S. even considers re-establishing ties with it. Iran would be an incredible strategic ally in the Middle East and there are few that do not recognize this. However, we have been burned (literally) by the Iranians before, so we don't have to do anything to make the first gesture. We hold all the cards anyhow.

Although I wasn't happy that Ghadafi's family suffered from the bombing, I'm glad the U.S. did it. Ever since, he's been scared shitless and the embargo has hurt him badly. Yes, it's his own choice not to bomb planes anymore, but his terrorist activities only stopped after the bombing and when the effects of U.S. sanctions and diplomatic isolation kicked in. He's trying to kiss ass now so he can maintain his regime. In the end, Libya still has to pay compensation to the victims of the families of the PanAm bombing. The Hague court already ruled that the Libyans were involved.

I agree the U.S. should have never pulled out of the Kyoto Protocol. That's our fault for electing a corporate chimp like Bush. Blame it on those stupid Floridians, especially the right-wing Cubans in Miami.

The U.S. is not "a bastard". We do more for the rest of the world than they do for us.

Americans don't even trust our own government either. Likewise, I wouldn't recommend you should entirely trust yours.

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Beren


Here's one willing to do that. I think the entire attitude of America towards world problems s u c k s Still I respect American cititzens. It's not their fault. I would try to convert them to a better attitude.

The world is just going to have to live with the fact that America is seperate and soveriegn country. Since Europe's lack of action or will to assert itself on the world stage (Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, et al) has forced us to step in and be the world's police force, we are no longer going to ask father may I before we act. This is especially true in dealings with our own national security.

If we don't bomb your country what right do you have to bad mouth us?

It amazes me how you can sit back and have you own soldiers acting as peace keepers (Bosnia) allow Serb soldiers to haul away thousands of men and boys to their death, and then call us arrogant for standing up to dictators.

I would call you cowardly but this is not the place for it.

KATN

[siredgar]

Whoa, LordDread! Them sound like fightin' words to me! Hehe. Pretty badass of you to just come out and tell it like it is.

After hearing all this WWII and Soviet Union ranting from Serb and other anti-U.S. B/S, I think the tide has turned in this thread. Go, USA!

[sargon2]

Originally posted by siredgar
After hearing all this WWII and Soviet Union ranting from Serb and other anti-U.S. B/S, I think the tide has turned in this thread. Go, USA!

Serb is just holding up his country and its history, and in many points I think he is right. To you it is anti-american or even directly spoken terroristic, at least supporting terrorism. Let's bomb Russia for Serbs posts.


By the way, that Iran is supplying the Palestanian Authority with weappons doesen't seem to me terroristic, it is just against Israel to support the independence movement but not terroristical. And the hezbollah is fighting israel troops and border and shoot from time to time a rocket israel-bound, it is the biggest dream of the Palestines to exchange this intesity of beeing attacked.

[siredgar]

I don't think I'd ever suggest bombing Russia because they have plenty of bombs, too. So, please don't put words in my mouth, thank you.

As for Iran, they support terrorism in other ways besides supplying arms to the Palestinians. Anyhow, I never labeled this action as "terrorist" or even talked about it. You read too much between the lines, my friend. I think a lot of you seem to make assumptions about Americans without knowing the facts anyhow.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by siredgar
Is this is an apology, Sagacious Dolphin? =)

You did call us "arrogant" after all.

I was using it as a term of endearment.

Well actually.... My earlier spiel was just a bit of sarcasm. I forgot Americans have yet to master that concept.

Don't know what Sagacious Dolphin wants to say

Often I don't either.

[~Vodka~]

OK, I tryed to be reasonable. I tryed to use diplomacy but... I know why you "flame" us Beren. Its because you Germans don't have any more jews to "flame" (meaning: burn in an oven). Dolphin, you are the most arrogant son of a b*tch in this. You act like you are the smartest mother f*cker.

You f*ckers wanna get in a bash war, lets go. Got beef?

[siredgar]

Have you been drinking?

[lorddread]

Although I am not sure what OT forum is, can we get back to the game forum here.

For everyones sake can we agree that:

Russia was a powerful nation and can be again with a little worl.

China has the makings if they can get out from under Communism

The Iroquois, while no longer a viable nation, belong in Civ3

Germany has a good military

France looks good in pink (I always think of them that way)

Israel has the right to defend itself.

And no one here is better than anyone else!


KATN

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by lorddread

3. When the T-34 / 85 came into production it was the best ALLIED tank. The Tiger and Panthers were a match for it.

A match, gun and armor-wise, but not in terms of speed, maneuver, and numbers (ease of manufacture).

While Gudarian may have gone to school in Russia, the tactics he used were based on General Sherman (US Civil War fame) and modified for modern armor and vehicles.

Its been many years since I read it, but gudarian cites Capt. Liddle Hart (as do others) as the concept source of the modern use of tanks.

Also for the record, while everyone (men and women) fought in Russia, they also killed a lot of their own people. Stalin (like Hitler) got too involved in the war. Hence the debacle at Stalingrad.

I think it is overly simplistic to blame the loss at Stalingrad on Hitler. One may argue that there were more important objectives than Stalingrad and that von Paulus should have been allowed to retreat, but IMO the German army lost at Stalingrad because it was beaten by a better opponent, the Red Army under Zhukov.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by ~Vodka~
OK, I tryed to be reasonable. I tryed to use diplomacy but... I know why you "flame" us Beren. Its because you Germans don't have any more jews to "flame" (meaning: burn in an oven). Dolphin, you are the most arrogant son of a b*tch in this. You act like you are the smartest mother f*cker.

You f*ckers wanna get in a bash war, lets go. Got beef?

Quote the things you find arrogant, I will then explain why I said them.

If you are specifically refering to this:

Typical Americans are stupid, ignorant teenagers who spend all day typing illiterately on forum websites about how crappy the rest of the world is (i.e Alaska and Hawaii, as there is nowhere else, is there?) and mumbling about Hitler and how they saved Yurop's ass.

It was a parody. Sarcasm. If you read the previous two posts to it, you will see the context.

[CRAZY]

Just a little note on American history. Altho most american people are great and have nothing to do with what it government decides to do there are some things maybe they should think about.

First of all America was built at the expense of many other people. Mainly the black slaves from Africa.

You talk of modern American economic domination... main reason for this is thier late entry into WW2. you hear sensationalized stories of Pearl harbour and how Americans saved everyone.. they were only able to do this because they stayed out of the war and watched everyone else die. Then at the end of the war brought all the German techology to the US.

I am not trying to bash americans but the aggorance of the american government. I find these facts a bit humbling.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY
First of all America was built at the expense of many other people. Mainly the black slaves from Africa.

Merde!

[lorddread]

Before any other smug, foriegn SOB decides to tell me how bad my country is, let us set the record straight right here, right now, shall we?

Slavery is not an American invention. Most of the slaves brought to the "New World" were brought here by Europeans. It wasn't until the early middle of the 19th century (around 1830-1860's) that Americans took over. Nations that were hip deep in the slave trade were: Holland, Spain, Italy, some English captains and of course some African nations.

Another overlooked fact is that most Africans were sold into slavery by other Africans as a result of tribal warfare!

Now to completely destroy the notion that slaves built theN US economy. Slavery was for the most part only used in the south, were labor was in short supply. It was used in the cotton, tobacco and grain fields. The US economy (factory base) was built by the Irish, Italians and other immergrants who worked their asses off not slaves. I will not say that they made good money or their working conditions were the best, but I have been to places today in Europe and Aisa where conditions are not the best today.

Anyone who needs a further history lesson can feel free to respond!

[siredgar]

I agree with lorddread.

Slavery alone did not build America and it is the Europeans who really introduced it here anyhow. They're the ones who truly profited from the trade, not us. Regardless, it is quite pitiful that any European would criticize an American on this matter when we abolished slavery in the 19th Century, while you people continued to maintain colonies in Africa until the end of World War II (when you could no longer keep the Africans down).

While slavery is a tragic episode in U.S. history, it should not be solely our legacy but a shared one.

[Whoha]

dont feed the trolls ppl.

[Beren]

Originally posted by siredgar
Iran needs to stop supporting terrorism. Period. Regardless, it will have to go a long way before the U.S. even considers re-establishing ties with it. Iran would be an incredible strategic ally in the Middle East and there are few that do not recognize this. However, we have been burned (literally) by the Iranians before, so we don't have to do anything to make the first gesture. We hold all the cards anyhow.

Look, I must be stupid: what terrorism does Iran support?

If you are reffering to helping the Palestinines I can go for that. (What I think is, BTW, an understandable decission.) But there is no evidence at all for any other support for terror.