Stop the America-bashing!

[dexters]

It is an unintended side effect.

Civilization is not a history simulator, it is a game.

The game has always been done where time passes faster in the earlier ages and slower the close you get to the modern era, to reflect the increasing pace of life.

[knott]

Originally posted by dexters


I agree with you too. oh wait. let me read what you're going to be saying...




Well, a little bit of nationalism, of identity, doesn't hurt anybody. It is all part of being a good citizen. And I applaud our friends over the pond for showing that they love their country.

But Nationalism is a Genie, when unleashed, it can bring destruction and death. And out of everyone, I would think our European friends would know this. overzealous Nationalism had been one of the central reasons for two world wars fought on European soil.




Graham Bell, a Canadian, invented the telephone, but he had a rival, I believe his last name was Gray, but I'm not sure if he is swedish. I believe he was an American. Most books I've read seem to infer both invented it at roughly the same time. Bell just won by filing the patents first.

It was a french guy who invented it about 30 years earlier. But he misunderstood how it worked and his telephone had some serious problems.

[knott]

Originally posted by alskdj80
Yeah, it would be interesting to compare Rome to the other civs... the civs mentioned before in the comparison chart all exist today (except Egypt, because it really isn't the same civ as before). That doesn't give a very interesting comparison because the ones that existed first must have more turns as well.

All I know is that the legend of Romulus and Remus was dated at 753 BC. But after that, I think they were ruled by foreign leaders... it wasn't until 509 BC that they formed the Roman Republic. Problem is, when did Rome start? The legendary foundation? The Republic? Or the start of the Roman Empire? I think I'm leaning towards the 753 BC date. And about the fall, I think the Eastern Empire fell in 476 AD. How many years is that?

East rome fell in the 15 century.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by knott


East rome fell in the 15 century.

Constantinople fell in to the Ottomans in 1453.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by dexters
It is an unintended side effect.

Civilization is not a history simulator, it is a game.

The game has always been done where time passes faster in the earlier ages and slower the close you get to the modern era, to reflect the increasing pace of life.

Yes, yes, but what's a thousand years when there is little achieved? The modern age is much more significant because the pace at which mankind makes progress is heightened. Thus, the game emphasizes the importance of this period rather than ancient times.

Anyhow, my point is is that while a lot of people revere ancient Egyptian civilization so much, the Americans have probably achieved a lot more in a shorter period of time.

[Faust]

Originally posted by knott


It was a french guy who invented it about 30 years earlier. But he misunderstood how it worked and his telephone had some serious problems.

I would like to know where you get this info from. While it is true a Frenchman did mess around with varius methods of relaying information, he ended up using watch towers, can't remember what the system is called, nothing like a telephone though and this was in the Napleonic era. (He did mess around with electricty I think)

[Aeris]

Sigh...

As much as I hate America, you simply can't argue in terms of it's cultural influence, which is key in CivIII, as well as its military presense. I really don't care how turns and years equate...in real life, advances aside, a year in the third millennium BCE was the same as a year is now. Point to be made, however, especially considering that the game is programmed in America, and it's the hegemony right now, there's no reason not to include it.

Reason not to hate it, however...just because a country is great and powerful doesn't mean you should love it.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Faust
a Frenchman did mess around with varius methods of relaying information, he ended up using watch towers, can't remember what the system is called, nothing like a telephone though and this was in the Napleonic era.

Any chance you are refering to the development of semaphore? Developed by a Frenchie called Chappe in the 1790s.

[jamorobo]

Well they are correct A.G bell did invent the Telephone

plus...

The Internet was created by an englishman ( Forgoten his name ) who patented it and gave it for FREE to everyone.
The article on that link u put says the american guy built a predecessor to the Internet which was just used for video confrencing.

Please use correct wording you said "Penicilin and its mass production" where on the site it states
"Penicillin, mass production of."

Penicillin was actually found by Alexander Fleming a Scot.


I think most America bashing comes from what the rest of the world can only see of you. More people believe most americans are patriots with their heads stuck up their arses. This is because of americans forgien policy with speaches from your pres which might stir you but it makes people from other countries cringe.

My quibble comes from American media portraying Britian badly especilly in WW2. Yep the big 1 where american takes all the credit

eg.

Saving private Rian = A fairy tale war where britian never existed and was never on the beaches. It portrays the americans valiently crusading on the beaches getting slaughted against overwelming enemys. where the truth was the omaha beach was so hard to takes as the US did not want to use any help from the british who offered:

armoured amphibious fighting vehicles, flamethrower tanks, flailing tanks ( used to destroy mines ) etc..to help them on the beach.

Not to mention the airstrikes from the american planes which were ment to destroy to fortifications but completly missed!





U-571

Complete load of crap, The Brits got the first Enigma of a Sub 4 months before the US entered the war. The us did get 1 in the end but in 1944.


Now on to the Patriot

The Gibson character was based on a US army genral who " Raped his own slaves, shot Indians for fun and married his own cousin!"

The red coats were shown to round up woman and children in a church and set it on fire. When is actually somthing that the Germans did in WW2.
A historian said " With their own record of killing 12 million American indians and surporting slavery 4 decades after britian abolished it, Americans wish to project their historical guilt on to someone else. "

Further complantes were drawn by south georgia's Black population being shown as either happy loyal slaves or Jovial freemen.

I could go on to say about Braveheart, Titanic but i can't be bothered.


Ps. Independance day- when the plan is formed and they start using morce code to transmit everying, Look where they place the british......... Iraq, 2 english blokes with stupid accents which only royaly have, AND in the middle of Iraq a place not normally acocated with england but to the script writer Iraq and the english are the same thing and are both at the top of the list to ridicule.


As you can see American just in its film industry has made alot of people unhappy. Esp the english by removing them and putting a large "Made in USA" it its place.

I would love someone to make a film in a alternate universe where the US is still a English colony . And the world being shown as a better place because of it. Think no guns in american, no death sentance, ww1 + ww2 would be shorter or never had happend as america would of joined straight away. Black slavery would have been abolished earlier, less bible wielding fanatics in central america.

That is starting to sound like a great universe, lets hope i can create a Slider device like off the Tv series and go their


Anyway thats my little rant,


Enjoy !!!!!

[Dauphin]

The Internet was created by an englishman ( Forgoten his name ) who patented it and gave it for FREE to everyone.

That would be the World Wide Web (browser technology etc), not the Internet - which as everyone knows was invented by Al Gore. The guy who lead the team was English but the rest of the team was pan-European.

The Brits got the first Enigma of a Sub

We did get one from a Sub in '41, but it wasn't our first. I think the first one (before the extra wheel was added to German machines) was knabbed off of a German fishing trauler based in Iceland.

Esp the english by removing them and putting a large "Made in USA" it its place.

Have you not seen the latest ads for "That night in Munich" - a film about the USA's valiant 5-1 victory against Germany. Starring Ben Afflect & Matt Damon as the star midfielders, and Jeremy Irons as the cruel Rudi Voller?

[mdogg]

Hello, America is the only super power left in the world. As far as the resentment that the europeans have for the U.S.A try and think back to a little thing i like to call WWII yeah maybe they should rethink that , and thank us for once

[yin26]

For the record, Al Gore NEVER said he invented the Internet. I suppose you guys know that but just think it's funny to keep up the joke. What he DID say, and what he said upon reflection went a bit too far, was that he authored LEGISLATION that made the invention of the Internet possible.

He now claims that his legislation was merely 'helpful' -- not seminal.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by siredgar
PERIOD----------------YRS/TRN------TURNS
4000 BC - 2750 BC---------50------------25
2750 BC - 1750 BC---------40------------25
1750 BC - 750 BC-----------25-----------40
750 BC - 250 AD------------20------------50
250 AD - 1250 AD----------10-----------100
1250 AD - 1750 AD---------5------------100
1750 AD - 1950 AD---------2------------100
1950 AD - 2050 AD---------1------------100

Well, alskdj80, if we use your dates, then Rome (753BC-476AD)would have:

753BC - 750BC = 3 years / 25 = n/a turns
751BC - 250AD = 999 years / 20 = about 50 turns
251AD - 476AD = 225 years / 10 = 22.5 turns

That's only about 73 turns!

Interesting, hmmm?

Rome fell very early in the game!
But more then 50% of "Western civilizations" cultures come directly from the Romans!
The legislative system is for almost the 70% the same that the eastern Romans wrote down after the fall of western Roman empire!
Charle Magne (a French) when he conquered almost all Europe renamed his Empire "Holy Roman Empire" so did the Germans after the French "The German Holy Roman Empire"
And than you can consider the Italians as the descendant of the Romans if you want

Anyway!
I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist! Lots of things come from America and they were the first that wrote a Constitution from which every other Constitution in the world was inspired and written!
I can understand who says that America is not a civilization because is truly a mixture of people, cultures and other civilizations. But as long as they call themselves as Americans. well they are a Civ for me!

[DTRY]

Originally posted by dexters
Civilization is not a history simulator, it is a game.

So, America shouldn't be in CivIII as well as Russian, Japan or Egypt. Since it should rewrite history, there should be Luxemberg, Vatican, Pharos Island and another minor countries. Any influential nations should be removed. Actually, there shouldn't be real nations at all. Let's put Lemurian, Atlantian, Martian and the Andromedian here.

It's not a history simulator, right?

[jamorobo]

"I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist! "


What do u mean if they had not existed.
If America had still been under Englands control when WW1 and WW2 started i think the wars would of been over quicker or not started at all as England and its empire would of had control of over half the land in the world. So i don't think either Hitler or Wlihelm would of wanted england to be an enemy since England would bring the whole of its empire to bare against them.

Also the Axis would of won if England or Russia had not existed. Russia especilly as the germans were fighting on 2 fronts and if there was no russia ALL of germany's forces would be rushing thru france and probibly England.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by mdogg
Hello, America is the only super power left in the world. As far as the resentment that the europeans have for the U.S.A try and think back to a little thing i like to call WWII yeah maybe they should rethink that , and thank us for once

Perhaps you should understand why there is European dislike of Americans. Your post displays one of the more common hallmarks.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by jamorobo
"I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist! "


What do u mean if they had not existed.
If America had still been under Englands control when WW1 and WW2 started i think the wars would of been over quicker or not started at all as England and its empire would of had control of over half the land in the world. So i don't think either Hitler or Wlihelm would of wanted england to be an enemy since England would bring the whole of its empire to bare against them.

Also the Axis would of won if England or Russia had not existed. Russia especilly as the germans were fighting on 2 fronts and if there was no russia ALL of germany's forces would be rushing thru france and probibly England.

No
What i mean is if nobody ever settled there, rebeled to British power and starrted a new nation!

[mdogg]

Do you think that when england was on top of the world she wasn't arrogant? I feel that we have done alot for other nations in the world today and they show us very little respect in return. The fact of the matter is that no matter which way you look at it we are the only super power left in the world; this fact alone entittles us to a spot in the game. As for the fact of our young age that just adds to the list. We have done so much in so little time.I am not trying to be rude or arrogant but that is how I feel. I mean isn't that what a forum like this is for, to exprdess your opion. We as Americans should have a spot in this game.

[mdogg]

please forgive my typing

[Dr. K.]

On who should be included:
The problem is that the word "civilization" is a vaguely defined, and rather subjective term. Looking at a large Random House dictionary (I'm too lazy to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary which is only 5 feet from me :-), I see multiple definitions, and I will site two:

1. "An advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been achieved"

6. "Cities or populated areas in general, as opposed to unpopulated or wilderness areas".

By definition 6, many many political entities could be considered Civs; by definition 1, fewer. Either way, I think the USA must be considered a civilization. As the expansion pack threads show, there are many other entities which by consensus of the community are qualified to be included. I think the choice of the USA is no better or worse than choosing any of the others, but as has been pointed out on numerous occasions, it's inclusion will help at the box office. I personally would like to see the Spanish, Dutch, Inca, Aksumite, Viking, Mongol, and either Turkish or Arab. If nothing else, it will make the game more diverse and fun.

Various jingoistic stuff:
As for "American" inventions, nobody in the USA is originally "American" except the "indigenous, native Americans". Even *this* statement is open to question, since it is thought that the currently-assumed-to-be autochthonous Americans originally came across the Aleutian archipelago from Asia. But recent archaeology in the pacific northwest has suggested that there were people in North America even prior to these that apparently have quite a different genetic makeup. Enough of that.

Therefore, many of the "American" inventions listed have actually been made by various and sundry Europeans several generations removed. So what? We Americans are not a particular ethnicity, we are of many ethnicities. Which doesn't really make us different from other nations in fact. Should we say that Isaac Newton wasn't really British? He was an ethnic result of intermixing from Angles, Celts, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Vikings, and people indigenous to the Isles (I believe the Irish call these last "Tuadadunnum" or something like this) so therefore theory of gravity wasn't really British? This is silly. I would like to consider an invention American if it occurred on American soil.

Two of my favorite American inventions deserving of mention:
-Jazz
-Pizza

As for WWII:
American intervention, like the efforts of Russia and Britain, was necessary but not sufficient to defeat the Axis machine. All three were most necessary, none sufficient on their own. And let's not forget the French resistance, the help of the ANZACS, partisan Italians, Maltese, etc., and the fortunate insanity of one Adolph Schickelgruber. And please, let's give the USA some points for being of major help in rebuilding world economies after the war, especially in the defeated nations.

P.S. I dislike "Ugly Americans" who are arrogant in their ignorance of other peoples and their history and culture. There is much we all don't know.

p.p.s. Sorry for the long post.

[Dauphin]

And let's not forget the French resistance

Yes they did a lot to help Operation Torch. Killing Allied soldiers was nice of them.

Sorry, but that is a soft spot with me.

[mdogg]

It is not a question of who could have single handly defeated the axis powers (or just germany for that matter) it is the fact that there was a french resistance for a reason, THE FRENCH WERE OCCUPIED. The point is that america step in and "helped out" the french and really "helped out" the brits when they were in need and it seems people treat us like chumps. well i geuss that the past is the past and we should all just keep it in the backs of our minds and say hey every country lost people in the war now lets just try to get back to talking about civ III

[Giovanni August]

PIZZA an AMERICAN invention?
Sorry but I don't think so!

About WW2
Without America Axis power would win that war! But America alone could not defeat the German Army alone (I don't consider the Italian Army because it was too weak compared to the German one)! But they defeated the Nazis with the Soviet Union and the remaining of the British Army!
But I must say that America helped a lot Europe in the post-war years offering money and military help for the European reconstruction!

To answer to the one that said that America is the only super-power left... well I don't think so! Economically Europe and Japan are as competitive as the USA Militarily China, Russia and Europe are really strong!

America must be in Civilization3 but don't start to be arrogant saying you are the strongest and that you saved the world!


Merry Christmas everybody

[Dr. K.]

Originally posted by Giovanni August
PIZZA an AMERICAN invention?
Sorry but I don't think so!

Giovanni, I appreciate your rather level-headed opinion of the USA. But I have to point out that no matter how you might not like it, pizza was invented by Italian-Americans on the the east coast of the USA and therefore, by my standards, it is an American invention (same reasoning as telephony and Alexander Graham Bell, even if he was originally from Scotland). Sure the Italians had focaccia and various other things similar to pizza, but not pizza itself. By the way, I must insert that the French invented the teleGRAPH, not the telephone. I think the first telegraph line was between Paris and Lyons (or maybe it was Marseilles) in the 1840s or 1850s. I believe this line also eventually had primitive Fax capabilities (another French invention)--VERY advanced!

BTW, Giovanni, I love focaccia, various types of macaroni, and in fact most things entirely and originally Italian (such as their fashion, music, and food). Oh, and did I forget Gina Lollobrigida, Sofia Loren, and Laetitia Casta?!

Viva Italia!!

How about this--maybe we can all say something *NICE* about a country other than our own?! Happy holidays to all.

[Giovanni August]

Laetitia Casta?!.....
....
How about this--maybe we can all say something *NICE* about a country other than our own?! Happy holidays to all.

Ehm Laetitia Casta is French....
I didn't really know the History of pizza that's why I just said "I don't think so" and not "You are wrong". Thanks for explaining!
But I still prefer the Pizza you can it in an Italian pizzeria instead the one you can eat at Pizza Hut....

I think America is a great country and right now I'm doing an exchange program with my school so now. I'm in High School in Olympia (WA). I really like it! The only thing I don't like is your drinking laws! You must be 21 to touch a beer !
In Italy there is no drinking age !
But I'm really happy to be here right now! I'm having a wonderful experience and most of the American people I met (can't say all of them but let's say the 95%) are really good people and it's very easy to meet friend here!
PS
Especially girls-friends !

[yin26]

Hey, keep your hands off our women, you Italian brute! American women are too innocent, I tell you! *cough*

Now, if you are including a few Italian girls in this international exchange, then all is good. God Bless the Global Village!

[mdogg]

Giovanni,

[mdogg]

Giovanni,

- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. and a super power has both military and economic power. ( japan is told by us what they can have and isn't allowed to consturct a offensive millitary.)
- China is a valid argument but still an argument. China doesn't disclose what it has to the world so we don't know. China most likely has a military to mach ours in nubmer or surrpass it the latter being more paulsible given their huge poulation, but when is the last time China shouldered any other country's burden. the U.S. is left alone in that department
- Russia's military is now working for half of the knowen world so how can it be so mighty

I would like to point out that this is not stubbern "americanism" but an attemp to highlight the reasons that I think my earlier statment is correct no hard feelings I hope.

[Giovanni August]

Originally posted by yin26
Hey, keep your hands off our women, you Italian brute! American women are too innocent, I tell you! *cough*

Now, if you are including a few Italian girls in this international exchange, then all is good. God Bless the Global Village!

Eh eh eh eh!
I bet that is the same thing that the Korean boys told you when you went there..... isn't it? !

Originally posted by mdogg
- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. and a super power has both military and economic power. ( japan is told by us what they can have and isn't allowed to consturct a offensive millitary.)
- China is a valid argument but still an argument. China doesn't disclose what it has to the world so we don't know. China most likely has a military to mach ours in nubmer or surrpass it the latter being more paulsible given their huge poulation, but when is the last time China shouldered any other country's burden. the U.S. is left alone in that department
- Russia's military is now working for half of the knowen world so how can it be so mighty

What you said is right! (I don't know if what you said about Japan is true but i suppose it is)
But economically Europe acts as a unique nation! and pretty soon there will be an European army and (hopefully) no more wars on European soil.

[Dr. K.]

Originally posted by mdogg
Giovanni,
- Europe is not a nation and therefor it can't be a super power.

Super power is another completely undefined term. As such, I don't see how you can arbitrarily decide whether any country or league of nations is one or not. And it really doesn't matter. We happen to be the most powerful nation militarily and economically right now, but the future belongs to India and China, as they have the most people, and their technology will eventually catch up. That is, if we all make it to the future without being destroyed by a nuclear conflict. Suicidal terrorists+nukes = big problem.

Originally posted by mdogg
- Japan is practicly ruled by the U.S. ... ( japan is told by us what they can have ...

Well, this is a ridiculous statement, and illustrates why citizens of other countries think Americans are ignorant and arrogant (I will remind you I am American too). The parviscient should be more pauciloquent.

It is true that Japan at this point is not allowed by the terms of the surrender after WWII to construct a military; however, Prime Minister Koizumi is pushing for these restrictions to be lifted, and I imagine that shortly they will.

Although the USA was instrumental in creating the new Japanese constitution after the war, we in no way rule Japan. For instance, the Japanese people made it clear that under no circumstances was Hirohito or his family to be harmed, killed, or even accused of any wrongdoing in the war, despite the fact that evidence suggests that he had prior knowledge of several atrocities committed by the Japanese, including the rapes of Nanjin and Manila. Furthermore, several members of the emperor's family were personally involved in these actions. We had to look aside as the imperial family fell blameless because the Japanese people held the emperor as somewhat of a deity and incapable of wrongdoing. They--40 million strong--would have fought to the death otherwise, and this even after the devastations wrought upon Nagasaki and Hiroshima. In fact until this last election (and probably even now) many of the powerful people in the ruling party have significant ties to the old imperial system in place before the war. We do not rule Japan--not even close.
______

Oh and Giovanni: I didn't know that Laetitia Casta was French, so you got me there. Hmm, it's an Italian name, but then again Napolitano Buonaparte was Italian too...well, Corsican or Sardinian.
There is no question most Italian-American pizzerias are vastly superior to fast-food joints such as Pizza Hut. You need to have New York pizza, and in particular, I recommend Totonno's and Patsy Grimaldi's in Brooklyn if you ever travel to NYC.