The "Where Did They Go?" list

[justin_sayn]

Here lies a list of features that were once part of either Civ1, Civ2, SMAX, CTP or CTP2 that, imho, made the TBS experience much more enjoyable.

I'm just wondering where these features went, features that had already been designed, implemented, tested, coded (the majority of which firaxis owns the code to) and for the majority much appreciated by the gaming community. Here goes:

Barbarians: They used to evolve as the game went a long. Now we only have 2 types.

Diplomacy Victory - SMAX had it best. CIV3's is just crap.
Diplomacy Options - Asking Ally To Stop War On Other Allie
- Asking Allies For A Gift
- SMAC: Bonus if you were council leader
(to trade, and we had spy info)
- Atrocites and the ability to vote on them
- The general idea of a planetary council

Devastating Weapons (if properly balanced, like in SMAC. They did it then with planet busters, why cant they do it now with nukes?)

Spies/Info: In SMAC, We could pretty much view anything about our allies/enemies if we had infiltration. It was also well layed out.

SMAC and CTP2: Underwater Cities

Water Level (and the icecaps)

Terraforming

CTP2: PUBLIC WORKS!!!

Stacking Of Units

CTP2 Army Concept (well I liked it)

Futuristic Units (again, I thought it was fun. Could have an option to turn it off)

The Dan Quayle Screen

The Planet Turing On You In a Non Boring SHIFT-P way, and the whole concept of gaining bonuses by being freidnly with the planet

Slaves

CTP2: Pirating Of Trade

Unit Workshop: Couldve been adapted to fit in with CIV3

Cool Spying Options

SMAC: Real Difference Between the Civs. They had different abilities, different personnalties and different goals and ideals.
I thought it was really cool that some would declare war on you just because you didnt share there ideal. So it was up to you to either adapt or face their rath. Quite a variation from the "give me 8 gold and territory map" crap we have now.

SMAC: The fantastic government system.

CTP2: Environmentalists, Fundamentalists,Terrorism

Bribing Units

Random Events / (Just Put Switch)

SMAC: Smac had a great setting to it. The sounds, the personalities of theleaders, the way they would speak, it added a lot to the game.

CTP:Fog Of War Even in your territory.
CTP: Looking Posts, Sonar

Stealth Units

Sea Formers / Sea Installations

CTP2: Had a lot less micromanagement then The CIvs. I thought it was a huge step up.

CTP2: They had "culture" better implemented. Depending on your city's size, you would gain more terrirtory. They also had the "City X is revolting against its leader and is joiing your CIV!" thingy. So it's nothing new in CIV3, just an old idea badly implemented

CIV2: The Eiffel Tower Wonder (enhances other's regard)

SMAC: Landmarks

SMAC: Terrain Elevation

In CTP2 they had a cool conept: You could build TV's and make people happier. But If someone built the Hollywood wonder, he would get money from any city in any civ that had a tv in it.
It wouldnt have been too hard to develop more ideas like this one.

SMAC WONDERS: Prevent All Spying Action. Better Terraformers, Cities Start at size 3, etc...

CIV1, CIV2, SMAC, CTP2: (S)ENTRY!!!

The Ability to send supplies to needy citites

In SMAC, You could "coordinate your attack plans". That was cool.

In most of the other games, when you were in an allied war, if you didnt actually send units to attack the enemy, your ally would get mad. In Civ3, all you have to do is declare war, and the ally is happy.

SMAC:Stationing Of Units In Allied Bases
SMAC:Trading Military Units

The ability to choose what improvements to destroy (and the ability to destroy fortresses!)

SMAC: The IRONMAN Feature

SMAC: Blind Research (i liked it; again could be an option)

The Option to slow down turns

Units that do extra "police" effect

Ability to view your casualities in a non-mind numbing way

Ability to View How Many Shield Produced So Far For "x" improvements (all we get now is how many turns are left)

View All Techs an opponent has and being informed when he discovers one.

CTP2: You could set your tone when you did diplomacy (ex: hostile, friendly etc...

CTP2: FEATS OF WONDER! (1st to sailing whole world, 1st to have have x number of cities, first to discover this etc...)

CIV2: Barbarians Taking Over Cities

A Warning Of When Enemy WOnder Gonna Be Ready

SMAC: Right Clicking on a unit gave you a menu of ALL the commands it could perform. (and if you thought there were too many options, you could just set it to simple menus instead of advanced)

SMAC: Logging Of Messages

SMAC: Had a good (but not perfect tech tree), in the sense that you could specify yourself in one of four branches

CTP2: The ability to immediately disband an unwanted city (had to be under pop size of 8 i think though

And finally, Prototyping, from SMAC.
What was cool about that was the fact that you were rewarded for discovering a technology before other civs because, during the turns the other civs were still discovering it, you were building your prototype. So when they discovered it, they couldn't put it to use right away.


Lemme know if I'm missing any.

Also let me know if you figure why they were taken out (sure a few of them could be a matter of taste, but I beleive the majority of them made the gaming experience better for everyone).

One more thing: Although I mention CTP2 a lot, it was a badly implemented game. But that doesnt mean it didnt have some great concepts.


Oh, and yeah, I almost forgot:
A non-moronic governor that will LET ME BUILD MY LAST UNIT FOR ALL OF ETERNITY.

[yin26]

"You cannot simultaneously prepare for and prevent mediocrity."

[justin_sayn]

Originally posted by yin26
"You cannot simultaneously prepare for and prevent mediocrity."

Is that what they were doing all along?

[yin26]

Go grab the pudding. The proof is always in it.

[Wrong_shui]

You missed something from the diplomacy section

Actual allies - All u can do is have war pacts

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by yin26
"You cannot simultaneously prepare for and prevent mediocrity."

so you want a civ game with all the 'great' features listed above?

SMAC and CTP2: Underwater Cities
Water Level (and the icecaps)
Terraforming

crowd: but it is not realistic!!!!

The Planet Turing On You In a Non Boring SHIFT-P way, and the whole concept of gaining bonuses by being freidnly with the planet

you mean, the tree-huggers turning on you if you do not save the moskitos, etc.?

Spies/Info: In SMAC, We could pretty much view anything about our allies/enemies if we had infiltration. It was also well layed out.

crowd: not realistic!!! witness how much we know about (insert random rogue country)

SMAC: Real Difference Between the Civs. They had different abilities, different personnalties and different goals and ideals.
I thought it was really cool that some would declare war on you just because you didnt share there ideal. So it was up to you to either adapt or face their rath. Quite a variation from the "give me 8 gold and territory map" crap we have now.

they also gave you ultimata before attacking.

And finally, Prototyping, from SMAC.
What was cool about that was the fact that you were rewarded for discovering a technology before other civs because, during the turns the other civs were still discovering it, you were building your prototype. So when they discovered it, they couldn't put it to use right away.

yeah, prototype warrior would be cool. 'sir, we constructed a prototype rifleman! would you like to see that hideous creature?'

Futuristic Units (again, I thought it was fun. Could have an option to turn it off)

yeah, it's a shame us special unit is not a mechatron or a dino and that japanese have that puny samurai instead of a godzilla....

Devastating Weapons (if properly balanced, like in SMAC. They did it then with planet busters, why cant they do it now with nukes?)

crowd: not realistic. one shot and there is MAD!
other crowd: but what if i WANT TO?

Diplomacy Victory - SMAX had it best. CIV3's is just crap.
Diplomacy Options - Asking Ally To Stop War On Other Allie
- Asking Allies For A Gift

the only valid points. civ3 diplovictory is a whimper and one has no real feeling of holding elections. asking ally to stop war would have been cool but would enable you to manipulate ai too easily. the way it is now, too many MPPs have to drag you into combat sooner or later. i know that sometimes you cannot get out, but at least it makes you think twice before committing.

[DarkCloud]

LaRusso- spying information about allies is realistic- perhaps not as much details- but allies share information.

[Dadeo]

justin_sayn you are soo right. I would expect that this newest in the series would at least have many of the features that made the other games enjoyable. This seems like a stripped down version that is a disappointment. What rating would it be given if it wasn't from the house of Sid?

[sachmo71]

I just can't figure out the crowd that seemingly merge SMAC with Civ. "where is terraforming? where is the planetbuster?" Picture this...say you were going along in a game of Civ, and you pounded the Zulu's into dust, and while at war with the English, they nuke you. Pollution everywhere. Next thing you know, mind worm boils start coming out of the ground, eating temples and workers left and right! Sounds kinda silly to me...

[Miznia]

A few more things:

Civ1:
Colorful, block-shaped cities

SMAC:
Nerve-stapling (...or did they remember to include this?)
Psi weapons
Salvage Unity Core UN proposal

Colonization:
Colonist could stay in Indian camp to learn a skill
Where's the "Declare Independence" option?
I'm sure Sid has the code for this stuff somewhere in his basement.

Miznia

Great list justin_sayn! If only half of those were included in the game I'd be 100% happier. As it is now, I'm thoroughly disapointed. It looks (and feels) like Civ 2.5 (to steal a title from Yin26, I believe).

The only real hope we have is that Infogrames are the real bloodsuckers we thinkthey are and have contracted with Firaxis to make the game we were led to believe was this one; but instead be a part of an expansion pack w/MP support and the rest of the game functions you and many others so desperately wanted to be included in this release. Let's hope they don't try to charge full price for the next release though.

[Blackadar1]

Justin, I think you're spot on with that list. It makes you wonder why Civ 3 is the way it is with so many superior features of SMAC .

[justin_sayn]

Originally posted by sachmo71
I just can't figure out the crowd that seemingly merge SMAC with Civ. "where is terraforming? where is the planetbuster?" Picture this...say you were going along in a game of Civ, and you pounded the Zulu's into dust, and while at war with the English, they nuke you. Pollution everywhere. Next thing you know, mind worm boils start coming out of the ground, eating temples and workers left and right! Sounds kinda silly to me...

Yes it sounds silly to me too.
However, we could have enviromental activist groups starting to form and give us a hard time. Or religious leaders condeming the acts. Or our population becoming extremeley unhappy and bringing forth the collapse of our government. Or ...

I'm not saying that SMAC's implementation is fitting for CIV, I'm just saying the concept was great and it's a shame to not have it implemented in civ3. I don't know about you, but for me, hitting SHIFT-P kinda gets boring as soon as I start the motion to press the SHIFT key. Actually it's boring just talking about SHIFT-P.

And what would be wrong with terraforming in CIV? We have man made islands and man made lakes after all don't we? And a little thing called the Panama Canal.

All in all, these games had some great features that should've been implemented in CIV3 (even though they could've been adapted to fit the CIV environment realistically). Instead, what we got, at least that's my impression, is a step back from all the other games.

[dreamplace]

CTP2:
Threaten in Diplomacy, "if u don't accept this deal, prepare for WAR!"
I really like this one.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by bigfree1
As it is now, I'm thoroughly disapointed. It looks (and feels) like Civ 2.5 (to steal a title from Yin26, I believe).

To be fair, you should call it Civ1.75 then, since Civ2 was no more than Civ1.5 actually (just a souped up version of Civ1)

[Dis]

I don't care about atrocities. most of civ3 takes place before the concept of atrocities actually existed. this was more in place for smac.

note I really dont' give a f*ck about half those things. but everyone else seems to.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Dissident
I don't care about atrocities. most of civ3 takes place before the concept of atrocities actually existed. this was more in place for smac.

note I really dont' give a f*ck about half those things. but everyone else seems to.

everyone = ca. 20 posters

[Dis]

I'm just still not sure "listening to fans" worked with civ3. The game is chaotic and choppy. Not as fluid as civ2. Although the game is better than civ2. Too many things in civ2 annoyed me, and I'm glad they are gone.

I say screw the fans, and program the game the way you want it. Build it, and they will come

[Bane Star]

I'm for alot if not all of these options, BUT only as boxes we could tick before the game starts, enabled or disabled for the purposes of the player. Mostly I'd like all of them for the editing suite so I can enable them for some campaigns and disable for others,

These are the ones I agree with and should be available if only so I can make available in scenarios I have designed but not implemented yet

Originally posted by justin_sayn

Spies/Info: In SMAC, We could pretty much view anything about our allies/enemies if we had infiltration. It was also well layed out.

SMAC and CTP2: Underwater Cities

Water Level (and the icecaps)

Terraforming

Stacking Of Units

Slaves

CTP2: Pirating Of Trade

Unit Workshop: Couldve been adapted to fit in with CIV3

Cool Spying Options

CTP2: Environmentalists, Fundamentalists,Terrorism

Bribing Units

Random Events / (Just Put Switch)

CTP: Looking Posts, Sonar

Stealth Units

Sea Formers / Sea Installations

SMAC: Landmarks

SMAC: Terrain Elevation

CIV1, CIV2, SMAC, CTP2: (S)ENTRY!!!

The Ability to send supplies to needy citites

In SMAC, You could "coordinate your attack plans". That was cool.

In most of the other games, when you were in an allied war, if you didnt actually send units to attack the enemy, your ally would get mad. In Civ3, all you have to do is declare war, and the ally is happy.

SMAC:Stationing Of Units In Allied Bases
SMAC:Trading Military Units

The ability to choose what improvements to destroy (and the ability to destroy fortresses!)

SMAC: Blind Research (i liked it; again could be an option)

Units that do extra "police" effect

CTP2: You could set your tone when you did diplomacy (ex: hostile, friendly etc...

CTP2: FEATS OF WONDER! (1st to sailing whole world, 1st to have have x number of cities, first to discover this etc...)

SMAC: Had a good (but not perfect tech tree), in the sense that you could specify yourself in one of four branches

CTP2: The ability to immediately disband an unwanted city (had to be under pop size of 8 i think though

Oh, and yeah, I almost forgot:
A non-moronic governor that will LET ME BUILD MY LAST UNIT FOR ALL OF ETERNITY.

I edited the entire SMAC to become a Civ game, simply because alot of SMAC is almost the Civ3 that I wanted, with only one problem: Troops, My 6 simple troops were "armies" of various basic strengths, which If I could have edited the Unit workshop to make medieval units I would have.

[Grim Legacy]

There is so much more missing!

Q3A: "You have taken the lead!" voice-over
UT: Headshot option
Dune2: Devastator tanks
Wolfenstein: German shepherd dogs
AvP: Predator vision
UT: DODGING!
UT: Shieldbelt
Civ1: EGA monitor option
UT: Godlike status
Civ1: PC beeper sound option

And and and...