What about Mars?

[Yuvo]

Well, if you're gonna go to Alpha Centauri, surely you'd want to go to Mars first?

I wouldn't expect anything big, maybe just something along the lines of the "Mars Now" scenario out of Fantastic Worlds.
And maybe the moon aswell.

Hopefully this would'nt take up too much memory during the game, since Mars is only a third the size of Earth.

Any suggestions?

visit or colonize?

If you mean visit....isn't the whole purpose of "The Apollo Program"?

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Biddles]

Yuvo: Could you possibly be reading any of Kim Stanley Robinsons Mars books at the moment? (either that or you spend way too much time at the mars society's web site).

It's a good idea though, who wouldn't want to colonize mars. It could also be a stepping stone to Alpha Centauri as you suggested. (Kind of a little trial run).


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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

[Yuvo]

OrangeSfwr: Yeah, to colonize. And same with the moon, the Apollo program could be what you need to build before any civ can go to the moon. Maybe a similar wonder for Mars, any ideas?

Biddles: No, but I have read them. I thought it might be fun to colonize after finding the Mars scenario pretty fun to play.

[Hawkman142]

How about just useing the moon and Mars as colonies for resources, like the European countries did from 1300-1940's with the Americas and Asia?

[mwaf]

Good point Dalgetti.

Some info about our solar system:
- Three planets could have life due to distance from sun acceptable; Venus, Tellus (well, earth) and Mars
- Venus surface temp. is between 400 K and 750 K (127 C - 477 C and 260 F - 890 F)
- Venus rotation is also very slow, meaning about 3/4 year day and 3/4 year night
- Mars average temp. is about 218 K (-55 C and -67 F) and at it's best, summertime day side only 300 K (27 C and 80 F)
Who would want to live at these places?

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sources:
The Nine Planets
...and what I know/remember from school

[Seeker]

27 C is actually not that cold.

[mwaf]

quote: Originally posted by Seeker on 05-01-2000 01:45 PM 27 C is actually not that cold.

yes, I know, mostly beats summer in Finland

[Seeker]

and it can get to -80 C in antarctica.

[mwaf]

quote: Originally posted by Seeker on 05-01-2000 02:51 PM and it can get to -80 C in antarctica.

warmer than the winter pole temp. on Mars: 140 K (-133 C, -208 F).

[Az]

I am very sad to disappoint you . life on mars for humans is impossible ! as you know the earth is a one huge charged magnet. and the charge of mars is opposite to the charge of the earth , so many ion-involved chemical proccesses that are part of many critical biological proccesses ....

sorry I am very sad to break your hopes ....

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Enslave the enemy .

[Glak]

could you clarify that magnetism thing? Hmm not sure what you're implying. Are you saying the poles are reversed? That couldn't be harmful, since Australians and others seems to tolerate it quite well.

[Yuvo]

jeez, you guys are pessimistic.......

mwaf-
if well-protected houses are built and people only walk outside in 'spacesuits' then the cold isn't going to be a problem.

Dalgetti-
I haven't actually heard of this 'opposite charge'. Tell us all more.

Anyway, if what you're saying is true, civ3 could still have a livable Mars, who cares about realism, nobody complained to much about the scenario.

[Earthling7]

What's the problem? If Earth has a positive charge and everyone is so negative, then a Mars with negative charge should make everyone very positive... right? Utopia at last!

And if the positive charge keeps us stuck to Earth, then a negative charge will allow us to fly without the assistance of Boeing!

Correct me if I'm wrong

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Greetings,
Earthling7
ICQ: 929768

[Biddles]

Dalgetti:
What does a magnetic field have to do with ionic equations? Aren't these due to electrostatic forces between molecules/atoms?

Mars doesn't have a magnetic field for two reasons (well they kinda overlap):
1. It doesn't have an iron core like earth's (there may be some iron but it is not a huge chunk of iron like earth's), iron is pretty much they only metal that is magnetic that occurs in large enough quantaties to form a planet's core.
2. Mars is less geologically active than earth. On earth, the magnetic field is caused by the iron core rotating at a different speed than the rest of the earth.

However, mars's lack of a magnetosphere is a problem. Earth's magnetosphere protects it from solar radiation. Since mars doesn't have this, anyone not taking precautions on mars would take more rems of radiation than life is designed to take. (But a few metres of water can block these out anyway).



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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

[Ari Rahikkala]

quote: Originally posted by mwaf on 05-01-2000 02:32 PM yes, I know, mostly beats summer in Finland

(Off-topic)

Tämä paikka alkaa täyttyä suomalaisista.

[Ari Rahikkala]

And about the Mars thing itself: The most horrible mistake which Firaxis can do is to have to separate maps where you have to have an empire both on Mars and on Earth. Other planets should be mjust for simplicity, statistical.

[general_charles]

just to say, I am totally against future techs and colonisation of the moon and Mars, as we have no idea what is going to happen, I even was dissapointed by the discovery of fusion power in civ2 and the SDI defence, which does not exist. (although some systems exist to lower the risks of a nuclear attack, but not based on laser.)

[Par4]

I think we start to forget civ isn't a complete remake of history, I mean if you were Rome would you have to fall in 469(I think thats right) and become the Byzantines.NO. While civ is history based I don't see why we can't have laser based SDI which is technologically feasible and a Mars colony.I read about new technologies like anti matter propulsion and artifical gravity which have been tested on the small scale and in your fictional empire I don't see why you can't have them to colonize the moon and mars. When SimMars comes out take a look at that I am pretty sure it takes place in like 2030 or something and the colony ship uses antimatter propulsion and the colony becomes self sufficent. The game is closely tied with NASA so most(if not all) is realistic for a Mars colony. If you say we have to end the game in 2060 for the journey to alpha centauri then think of this. We start our empire in 2000bc it never falls but weakens some times but we don't lose advancement times with dark ages or anything. In 1750 someone perfects in steam engine and pulls us into the industrial revolution. Now in 1900 we are starting apollo, 60 years before it in real life. Now say we have a start real colony in 2050(real life)(Not some 10 person base but a real self sufficent network of 10000 person colonies completes in 2100) but in the civ game if happens in begins in 1990 and ends in 2040. With the completion of the Mars colony we can get to Alpha centauri in 10 years with new propulsion and surpass the guys who use fusion but started 20 years before us. I think this could just be a big wonder that can't be bought and has to be started before 2000 for it to be completed to give the space ship the new propulsion in time to get to alpha centauri before 2100 or whatever. Maybe there could be a view of the colony(s) and you could see the building and ships. Think super dooper city view. Lunar could be a stepping stone for Mars, fast wonder makes antimatter propulsion availage to all to research if they have space flight or something.

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I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

[Par4]

Wow that post was longer than I thought
Synopsis(sp?? I hate spelling) Mars is feasible, game isn't history retraced its a simulation. If our empires don't completely fall we should come out in the industrial revolution a little earlier than 1800s maybe a hundred years?

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

[ember]

Magnets are not charged. They are polerized
Any magnet, by neccesity has both N and S poles. Earths magnetic field is so week relative to electrostaic foces for ions, that it really has no bearing on chemistry.
The only downside of mars' lack of a magnetic field, is more solar radiation (Bad) and compases don't work (use GPS type system).

It think some solar system colonies should be modeled, but abstractly. You could run it similiar to the SMAC orbitals, except there would be colonies with improvments that you could build.

The spaceship to AC would require a certain number of colonies, or certian reasearch and products could only be made in space.

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"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[The Joker]

I would like future techs in Civ3. I always found it ridiculous that you had to colonize AC in 2020, as this is highly unrealistisc. I think the game should last untill 2100 or 2200, which would give us a realistic date for the colonization of SMAC. It would also give us plenty of time to colonize the solarsystem. Mars and Moon colonies should both be included, and space cities/stations also, plus some bases at the asteroids.

There should not be individual maps for the Moon and Mars, but another way of colonizing them. The same should apply for all the other space colonization actives.

If Firaxis ends the game in 2060 "just because" it has to fit with SMAC it would be an unforgiveable mistake. They have said that SMAC would undergo some changes to fit the SoT series, and simply changing the starting date a little would truly be a minor change.

[Az]

Well , What can I say . I am not sure in my theory , but It's not mine anyway , I've read it somewhere . anyway I think that all that mars and the moon stuff isn't supposed to be in the game ... that suits more RTS , which I am also very fond of btw. if someone remembers Fragile Allgeiance ? that was the game type for space strategy ! but on CIV ... nop . cant take it . maybe civ should undergo some kinda change some DRASTIC change . but that won't be CIV anymore .

don't do it . plz don't .

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Enslave the enemy .

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 05-08-2000 10:26 AM plus some bases at the asteroids.

Woah, you mean space stations NEAR the asteroids in the asteriod belt or ON an asteroid. That base won't last long if it's on an asteroid! :-)


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Par4]

I think a wonder for mars that you could see like a said above is best, maybe lunar and mars could be seperate or the same its Firaxis' call. The asteroid base would be a mining base but thats farther away, if we were to transport back and forth from asteroid bases avoiding collisions and protecting the base on a big asteroid would be alot more trouble than just putting a base on Io to mine year round without worry of collisions with asteroids. Plus mining would still take place largely on mars and earth in the Civ time frame.

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse

[Laszlo]

Dalgetti, I have no idea what you're talking about. I Personally believe that last post to be a bunch of BS. I'm sorry, but the place you read about magnetic opposites, was mistaken. I read something somewhere too, so happen to have some knowledge of Earth's magnetic field and know that the poles have reversed many times during our planet's past. The whole Atlantic Ocean is proof. When molten rock coolsi t kind of sets in place with the direction of the poles. Back in the sixties or so, ships would measure the direction, and as they crossed the Atlantic, there were lots of stripes going North, South, North, South all the way across. And right in the middle was the Mid - Atlantic Ridge. At the time plate tectonics was still not widely accepted, but that pretty much proved it. as new lava flowed out of the ridge and the newly formed ocean crust inched outwards widening the Atlantic, the poles would flip and form opposite magnetic signitures in the rocks.

It doesn't matter to us which way the poles face or our ancestors wouldn't have been able to survive the switch that happens every 1-2 million years. But that doesn't mean that the actual switch is good. Our magnetosphere protects usf rom cosmic rays and other radiation. While it hangs in the balance more radiation could penetrate down to us. mutations and extinctions would rise for a while.

And since Mars a much weaker magfield explorers/colonists would need a bit of radiation protection. Thanks Biggles

This is from the url below.
[Changes in the magnetic field do not affect most living organisms directly (you could stand in the strongest magnetic field ever made and not feel a thing)]

Some further reading http://dogbert.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/759.html http://planetscapes.com/solar/eng/marsmag.htm

PS I admire your reasoning skills Earthling7, how could I be so blind?

[Laszlo]

Dalgetti, I have no idea what you're talking about. I Personally believe that last post to be a bunch of BS. I'm sorry, but the place you read about magnetic opposites, was mistaken. I read something somewhere too, so happen to have some knowledge of Earth's magnetic field and know that the poles have reversed many times during our planet's past. The whole Atlantic Ocean is proof. When molten rock coolsi t kind of sets in place with the direction of the poles. Back in the sixties or so, ships would measure the direction, and as they crossed the Atlantic, there were lots of stripes going North, South, North, South all the way across. And right in the middle was the Mid - Atlantic Ridge. At the time plate tectonics was still not widely accepted, but that pretty much proved it. as new lava flowed out of the ridge and the newly formed ocean crust inched outwards widening the Atlantic, the poles would flip and form opposite magnetic signitures in the rocks.

It doesn't matter to us which way the poles face or our ancestors wouldn't have been able to survive the switch that happens every 1-2 million years. But that doesn't mean that the actual switch is good. Our magnetosphere protects usf rom cosmic rays and other radiation. While it hangs in the balance more radiation could penetrate down to us. mutations and extinctions would rise for a while.

And since Mars a much weaker magfield explorers/colonists would need a bit of radiation protection. Thanks Biggles

This is from the url below.
[Changes in the magnetic field do not affect most living organisms directly (you could stand in the strongest magnetic field ever made and not feel a thing)]

Some further reading http://dogbert.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/759.html http://planetscapes.com/solar/eng/marsmag.htm

PS I admire your reasoning skills Earthling7, how could I be so blind?

Hope I didn't write too much. {Tomato Duck}

Laszlo

[Par4]

What exactly does this have to do with civ. Don't you think a colony would be protected from radiation? I'm not an expert on the magnetosphere but if switching happens every 1-2 million years and humanoids have been around for say 7000000 years then why are we here, please clarify I'm brain dead on the subject. While farming and tool making humanoids and homo sapiens have only been around for a few hundred thousand years the hunter gathering early humanoids are still our ancestors.

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse