EU considers plans to outlaw racism

[Stefu]

RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday.

Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race hate.

The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin".

Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law already, such as public incitement to violence.

But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material posted on far-Right internet websites.

It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views.

Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious political forces.

The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, described the Welsh as "irritating".

The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU.

Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where the balance lies" he said.

The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign countries".

Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight bag is packed and ready."

Ho-hay! Free speech goes whoppsy-daisey! Maybe it's just being exposed to Internet, but I still have some faith in marketplace of ideas and all that. Direct calls for violence are one thing, and should be criminal, but Holocaust denial or opposition to immigration (wrongful beliefs that they are) are wholly another thing. And while racist speech and Holocaust denial are repugnant beliefs, it really doesn't sound very intelligent to make these groups martyrs, does it? And this sounds like it has endless potentials for misuse - as noted in the article.

The European state. The idea just keeps sounding lovelier and lovelier.

[DinoDoc]

We will accept you, Stefu, should you decide to leave your police state.

BTW, that isn't the most repugnant law I've seen come out of Europe.

[Chris 62]

"a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign countries".

Does this mean MarkL will lose his computer?



You guys better hope that you don't turn that place into a giant police state.

[Sprayber]

You Euros are going to wake up one of these days and wonder what happened to that lovely dream of an enligtened united Europe. You cannot legislate proper thought. They try over here from time to time and it doesn't work. This will only promote hatred and give them a reason to hate foreigners more.

Europe is starting to concern me

[Bereta_Eder]

Some people are starting to get holier than thou in Europe.

Germany had a reason to have such strict laws.

Anyway if you read behind the surface:

1. it will be difficult to pass this through the council of ministers of the 15 member states.

2. if it does pass, under which form will it be adopted to the national law of the member states? will it be a direct adoption? very doubt full. It will propably depend on the national states to implement its basic ideals as they see fit

3. the cases will be trialed in national courts. Not the european court of justice. (there is no such provision - and the european court of human rights has no real power of enforcing anything). This leaves even more prerogative to the states...


anyway, bad law. Doesn't the US also have such laws that treat race crimes (or hate crimes - don't remember the exact term) differently?

[Chris 62]

I agree, Spray. They are starting to repeat the patterns of the 20th century that started their two world wars.

Quite distressing.

[Caligastia]

This has to the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Caligastia
This has to the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

Just wait till our friends across the pond start trying to deny this, THAN you will hear what REAL stupidity is!

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Sprayber
This will only promote hatred and give them a reason to hate foreigners more.

I completely agree.

I don't think it will last long or have any effect on countries it doesn't fit to.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Caligastia
This has to the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

You have not run into to any of the Flat-Eathers recently?

[Wraith]

--"Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated in any way by racism or xenophobia"

Won't this cause most of the population of France major problems?

Wraith
Warning: Whimsical when bored

[KrazyHorse]

Crap law.

[Bereta_Eder]

Have to get back to you, I'm going to see Harry Potter

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola


You have not run into to any of the Flat-Eathers recently?

Okay, maybe not the stupidest, but its up there...

[PaulT]

bloody hell I can't believe that law!!

The thing is, us EU "citizens" have no say! The bill is devised by the un-elected council.

First what I call the "enabling act" in Britain (actuallly the Internment without trial terrorism bill) and now this.

So soon you could be interned without trial for speaking out against other European states! YEAH!

[Provost Harrison]

Well isn't it nice to see that we will have thought police

They need to sort out the rules of the problem, not gestures towards crushing the symptoms. It is stupid. Education is the answer, not legislation of what would probably be unenforcable laws, and ones that could cause a lot of resentment.

[Stefu]

paiktis, what I see as the most distressing is that even if this doesn't go through, it still might be shade of things to come in brand spankin' new unified Europe. Only way to do something like that would be US-style loose federation, IMHO.

1. it will be difficult to pass this through the council of ministers of the 15 member states.

Well, this would at least get the support of two of big three (France and Germany) and quite a lot follows from France and Germany. Then there are countries ruled by Social Democrats or other such prties, which, IIRC, still make up the majority of European countries. (Mmm, are the new governments up already in Norway and Denmark? I'm not sure.)

2. if it does pass, under which form will it be adopted to the national law of the member states? will it be a direct adoption? very doubt full. It will propably depend on the national states to implement its basic ideals as they see fit

Well, even the basic ideals aren't all that hot - lose of free speech and all that - and compromise implementation wouldn't be that hot an idea, either. And if you don't comply, you're a big mean racist and we won't play with you.

3. the cases will be trialed in national courts. Not the european court of justice. (there is no such provision - and the european court of human rights has no real power of enforcing anything). This leaves even more prerogative to the states...

They still couldn't go *too* far from the basic ideals of the legislation.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

These are bad and stupid proposals, that will never get the support of all 15 member states.

There are too many politicians in Europe who dream of controlling the people "for their own good", and too many groups who would like to see their critics muzzled by the Law. They will never succeed Europe-wide. It will be European "unity" that suffers, not our freedom.

[Saint Marcus]

Does this mean MarkL will lose his computer?

Course not. Americans aren't considered foreigners, but "our bastard offspring"


And what is everyone so scared about? Some things to think about:

A. What would happen if you'd start a pro Bin Laden protest in Washington? Either the cops shut you up, or the people will.
B. What about all the anti-terrorist laws that you guys have in the USA, but not here in Europe, that restrict freedom?
C. This is nothing new. Here in Holland a party was outlawed because it was pro-Nazi and anti-foreigners.
D. Most importantly: It will never pass It's just one of those thought-bubbles some people put up.

I have a strong feeling the author of the article was anti-EU and was finding a way to make his point about how dangerous Europe is. Point is, this is nothing special. What a big fuss about nothing I personally won't start worrying untill people are arrested left and right without recieving a proper trial (US-style).

[Natan]

This is very, very dangerous.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Mark L


Course not. Americans aren't considered foreigners, but "our bastard offspring"

Really? We call you our "That Uncle that mooches off the rest of the family".

[Saint Marcus]

you can say what you want, you have our blood running through your veins. We are a part of you, and no matter how much you want to deny it, it is true.

[Stefu]

A. What would happen if you'd start a pro Bin Laden protest in Washington? Either the cops shut you up, or the people will.
B. What about all the anti-terrorist laws that you guys have in the USA, but not here in Europe, that restrict freedom?

Did you happen to notice the nationality of the thread-starter?

But of course, I'm a honorary American, as the honor was given to me during US election. Yippe-kay-ay, let's go bar-b-que dem dar Euroweenies!

C. This is nothing new. Here in Holland a party was outlawed because it was pro-Nazi and anti-foreigners.

And we all should follow Holland's example?

What did this party advocate? Did it advocate violence? What does 'Pro-Nazi' and 'anti-foreigners' mean?

D. Most importantly: It will never pass It's just one of those thought-bubbles some people put up.

The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin".

Let's hope there are no further similar thought-bubbles floating out of European Commission.

...

Then again, no fear of that happening.

[Saint Marcus]

Did you happen to notice the nationality of the thread-starter?

Does it matter? I was more refering to the many Americans who post here, though in general I was trying to make a point that things in Europe aren't much worse or better than in other western regions.

And we all should follow Holland's example?

You already do. Poldermodel, legalising drugs, legalising prostitution, legalising euthanasia, etc. Plus read my comment below. This legaslation is nothing new.

What did this party advocate? Did it advocate violence? What does 'Pro-Nazi' and 'anti-foreigners' mean?

Holding Neo-Nazi meetings, complete with copies of Mein Kampf and Swatstikas on the wall. Denial of the holocaust in their leaflets. Open worship of Hitler by the leadership of the party. etc. That's against the constitution in Holland. I believe it's the same in Germany, and probably other European countries as well. I think the EU, if this passes, wants to use that law for the rest of Europe too. It's certainly nothing new.

The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin".

Do you have any idea what a shitload of plans to EC publishes every months?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Mark L
you can say what you want, you have our blood running through your veins. We are a part of you, and no matter how much you want to deny it, it is true.

Not me, man. My folks are from Germany, Russia, and Britain.

And the Choctow Indian Nation.

[OzzyKP]

Freedom of speech only applies to people who are right.

Anyone who says something wrong should be hung.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Mark L
A. What would happen if you'd start a pro Bin Laden protest in Washington?

The same thing that would happen if you'd start a KKK march. You'd be allowed to.

B. What about all the anti-terrorist laws that you guys have in the USA, but not here in Europe, that restrict freedom?

Not in Europe? I defy you to spot in significant difference between the Patriot Act and the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

C. This is nothing new. Here in Holland a party was outlawed because it was pro-Nazi and anti-foreigners.

This makes it right?

D. Most importantly: It will never pass It's just one of those thought-bubbles some people put up.

And this makes the proposal any less worthy of condemnation and opposition because of what exactly?

I personally won't start worrying untill people are arrested left and right without recieving a proper trial (US-style).

That happens in Europe as well.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Not in Europe? I defy you to spot in significant difference between the Patriot Act and the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

#
Got a less belligerant and propaganderish name

[Shi Huangdi]

"you can say what you want, you have our blood running through your veins. We are a part of you, and no matter how much you want to deny it, it is true. "

Not Really, we are made up of immigrants from around the entire world, not just Europe.....

[Saint Marcus]

Not me, man. My folks are from Germany, Russia, and Britain.

And in what continent do those countries lie?

Not Really, we are made up of immigrants from around the entire world, not just Europe.....

Mostly Europe. Not even Americans deny that

The same thing that would happen if you'd start a KKK march. You'd be allowed to.

I believe a lot of Americans were against the KKK march.

Not in Europe? I defy you to spot in significant difference between the Patriot Act and the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

How many people are held in custody without proper reasons? None/very few. Also, there is no terrorism act here in Holland, or in most European nations. Britain does have one though.

This makes it right?

right? that's not the issue. It's just that this is nothing new. People are making a big deal out of something that has been around since the end of the world war. Laws restricting pro-Nazi sentiments are in effect in Holland, Germany and France for decades. All this is nothing new. So why the fuss now?

And this makes the proposal any less worthy of condemnation and opposition because of what exactly?

Like I said, the laws have already been in place for decades. The only difference is that the EU perhaps will enforce these laws too, instead of leaving it up to the individual nations. But since already most of the European citizens live under these laws it's nothing special. Only for a country like Britain, that doesn't have these laws, it's suddenly a big deal. But the real issue isn't the proposed law, since that's nothing new, but the fact that Europe will decide what Britain's citizens can and cannot do. That's the main issue here.