Civ3 mod possible?

[Ekmek]

I'm way behind the power curve in learning to SLIC but after playing Civ3 I did notice there are something's in CTP2 I wish it had. Being impatient on the possibility of firaxis puting it in, i'm wondering if CTP2 could be modded to have some of the Civ 3 features like:

Civilization attributes (Scientific, expansionistic, Industrious, etc).
I'm thinking this could be done by making special tech advances that have these abilities but not make them researchable (or even better have the list of six and make only 2 researchable, and once two are researched you can't do the other four). SIDE NOTE: If this is possible then we can come up with other attributes like Agricultural, Naval, etc and make exclusive.


Workers?
I like the PW because its less tedious then managing a ton of workers and i like that you have to have the PW resources to make the change. What I don't like is that I don't have free moving workers etc that I can have to develop territories I don't occupy. I also like capturing and nationality.

Nationality.
If that could be duplicated that would be cool.

Culture?
Probably the victory would be impossible but the expanding radius maybe?

Resources
CTP2 has more resources and I like the trade line system better. But is it possible to make resources a prereq for building some units? And luxury resources that make people happy? And being able to trade food would be an improvement over civ3 too.


IF anyone knows if its possible and point me in the right direction, I'd happily get to work on it (it might have to be a collective effort)

[Immortal Wombat]

Hi E,
I think you are right that a blend of CtP2 and Civ3 would be amazing, and as we can't MOD Civ3 (cheers Firaxis ), this is the game-engine to use

Civilization attributes (Scientific, expansionistic, Industrious, etc).
I'm thinking this could be done by making special tech advances that have these abilities but not make them researchable (or even better have the list of six and make only 2 researchable, and once two are researched you can't do the other four). SIDE NOTE: If this is possible then we can come up with other attributes like Agricultural, Naval, etc and make exclusive.

I don't know if it would be possible to add abilities to researches or not, but it may be possible some other way. An easy way would be to hijack the feats of wonder and give them to each civ right at the beginning, but certain ones could be done directly through SLIC (exploratory civ gets horseman at start?) Another way would be for each civ's own advance to allow a new version of each government, which affected all the coefficients for production and gold and whatnot, and then set these to high priorities in strategies.txt. Complex, but not impossible I think.

Workers?
I like the PW because its less tedious then managing a ton of workers and i like that you have to have the PW resources to make the change.

Dubious... I think it would be possible to add a unit that could lay tile improvements (provided you own the tile and have enough PW) but no-one has ever successfully added orders to the game. Also, I think the AI wouldn't be able to handle this at all, and that would make it pretty worthless.

Nationality.
If that could be duplicated that would be cool.

Unlikely I think. In CtP2 city management each citizen is less of a separate entity than in any Civ game before, so keeping track of that kind of stuff for every citizen everywhere would be impossible.

Culture?
Probably the victory would be impossible but the expanding radius maybe?

Conversely, I think the victory is possible, but the expanding radius and city takeover not
Conditions for victory are definable in SLIC for use in scenarios, and checking for enough culture each turn would be easy enough provided you can find some way of keeping a record of how much culture you actually have.

Resources
CTP2 has more resources and I like the trade line system better. But is it possible to make resources a prereq for building some units? And luxury resources that make people happy? And being able to trade food would be an improvement over civ3 too.

Yes, this is possible. Watch this space.

[Locutus]

Hey, guys, I'm back! (Not that I was ever gone, just in lurk-mode)

Civilization abilities: As IW explained, there are loads of things that can be done to realize this, some more elegant/compex than others but it's certainly possible.

Workers: Well, it's possible, even without giving units orders: one could simple make it impossible (through SLIC) to lay tile-improvements if there isn't a worker-unit at that location. Orders would still be given through the tile-improvement tab. Of course, IW has a valid point about AI not being able to handle this. Then again, isn't one of the main reasons to play CtP to NOT have those annoying settlers/workers anymore?

Nationality: The concept of nationality would be very difficult to port to CtP but one could easily model it's effects instead. I admit I'm not familiar with the details of nationality in Civ3 but I know it FE affects happiness/loyalty of citizens in cities. This is sort of already represented in CtP by conquest unhappiness, though some extra SLIC code could be created to simulate Civ3 even more accurately. Probably shouldn't be too difficult to model other effects nationality might have as well (with or without SLIC).

Culture: Cultural victory is certainly possible, I think cultural borders are as well. One could strip cities of (national) borders altogether and use SLIC-generated (invisible) fortress-type improvements at the location of the city to generate the borders. I haven't tried this idea yet though, I'm not sure if it would work. Like IW said, the biggest problem with culture is interface: how do you let the player know how he's doing culturally (SLIC messageboxes would probably be required, which is quite awkward but at least it's possible).

Resources: What IW said

I think I like this idea of a Civ3-mod, if only to show the Civ3-Community how much better CtP2 is mod-wise I think I'll play around a bit with cultural borders this weekend - that and resources are the most valuable additions Civ3 made to the Civilization genre...

[Ekmek]

I thought I added a reply post here, guess not. Anyways, everyday I get more frustrated trying to mod Civ3 because there are so many walls built in the engine i think. A bic file I was trying to add more resources for luxuries etc, but not only is the resource.pcx file small it seems the game won't show any new ones. On top of that it seems I've done something to crash civ3 if you have too many luxuries. In short CTP2(modded) is looking better each day.

Originally posted by Locutus
Civilization abilities: As IW explained, there are loads of things that can be done to realize this, some more elegant/compex than others but it's certainly possible.

Good news that this is possible. But I wonder if its possible to make it even BETTER than Civ3. This could be done by either making the "attribute techs" random and if possible of six types a civ can only research two. (I'm also hoping for more than 6 techs). This way Games will be more random and you can choose a path. (other options include:
1) making certain civs predisposed to searching certain attributes.
2) if possible, have different attributes for each "era" so you can really define your civ.

Workers: Well, it's possible, even without giving units orders: one could simple make it impossible (through SLIC) to lay tile-improvements if there isn't a worker-unit at that location. Orders would still be given through the tile-improvement tab. Of course, IW has a valid point about AI not being able to handle this. Then again, isn't one of the main reasons to play CtP to NOT have those annoying settlers/workers anymore?

I agree workers can be annoying. My real intent was trying to find a way to build roads, fortresses, and ESPECIALLY airbases outside of your borders. Because I found this annoying in CTP2. Is it possible to make a unit (like a worker) that once fortified acts like an airbase (an can't be unfortified) or even captured.

I also like in Civ3 how you can capture workers and can even trade and sell them. (I know there is slaving in CTP2 but you can't sell them)

Nationality: The concept of nationality would be very difficult to port to CtP but one could easily model it's effects instead. I admit I'm not familiar with the details of nationality in Civ3 but I know it FE affects happiness/loyalty of citizens in cities. This is sort of already represented in CtP by conquest unhappiness, though some extra SLIC code could be created to simulate Civ3 even more accurately. Probably shouldn't be too difficult to model other effects nationality might have as well (with or without SLIC).

Yeah this one isn't a big deal, probably just a nice to have feature

Culture: Cultural victory is certainly possible, I think cultural borders are as well. One could strip cities of (national) borders altogether and use SLIC-generated (invisible) fortress-type improvements at the location of the city to generate the borders. I haven't tried this idea yet though, I'm not sure if it would work. Like IW said, the biggest problem with culture is interface: how do you let the player know how he's doing culturally (SLIC messageboxes would probably be required, which is quite awkward but at least it's possible).

Culture borders I just saw as better than population determined. Not a priority I think.

Resources: What IW said

RESOURCES are a big one I think everyone agrees. And with 55 goods it should be pretty cool. I remember how trading works in CTP2, will it mean that trading with another civ will give them that resource? I like how the trade routes are on the map and can be pirated, but do you think they can also be exchanged diplomatically like civ3?

I think I like this idea of a Civ3-mod, if only to show the Civ3-Community how much better CtP2 is mod-wise I think I'll play around a bit with cultural borders this weekend - that and resources are the most valuable additions Civ3 made to the Civilization genre...

Like I said I'm leaning toward going back to CTP2, but I haven'r modded so if you point the way to a SLIC tutorial I'll start diving into.
Some other questions though:
1) Is it easy to change graphics (I guess sprites are for units) Especially the terrain, incorporating some of sn00py's Civ3 terrain could certainly help.

2) Can you add terrain improvements. I remember a limited box. And I've been dying to have suburb and urban terrain that can be built around a city (to show growth and urban sprawl) that adds defense to units too.

3) Can colonies be duplicated? If anything make them like cities with 1 tile control area and with no pop or city screen? this is for the resources situation (and maybe the airbase should have 1 tile control, I know they can do it because I built an airbase in enemy after i gave a city away and it gave me the tile back, i had to have a forify a troop on the PW part and it gave it to me once finished. I then played a game trying to make bases, I think a unit could make this easier).

4) Can we have drafting like civ3?

5) precision bombing?


thanks for the help guys.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by E
RESOURCES are a big one I think everyone agrees. And with 55 goods it should be pretty cool. I remember how trading works in CTP2, will it mean that trading with another civ will give them that resource? I like how the trade routes are on the map and can be pirated, but do you think they can also be exchanged diplomatically like civ3?

It depends on how Peter and I work it out, but it looks like there will be goods on the map, which can be traded through the trade system (if we can SLIC a way of keeping track of waht is being traded) and also (if Peter can sort the diplo stuff) offered and requested by/to the AI

Like I said I'm leaning toward going back to CTP2, but I haven'r modded so if you point the way to a SLIC tutorial I'll start diving into.

Peter's start guide, and my quick-guide are in this thread:
Locutus' guide (chapters 1 through 4, read before mine) is available on his website (see the www link above his post)

Some other questions though:
1) Is it easy to change graphics (I guess sprites are for units) Especially the terrain, incorporating some of sn00py's Civ3 terrain could certainly help.

ALL grahics can be changed ( firaxis) with an upper limit of about 200 sprites (units, goods, cities etc.). No-one has experimented with terrain, but no-one has found a limit to tech or wonder pics yet. Martin the Dane's TileEdit program allows the addition of terrain and replacement tile improvements (see the thread at the top of the page)

2) Can you add terrain improvements. I remember a limited box. And I've been dying to have suburb and urban terrain that can be built around a city (to show growth and urban sprawl) that adds defense to units too.

Technically you can add terrains and tile improvements and no-one has found any limit. To make them show in the game will require some adjustments to the relevant text files.
Aside: erm.. has anyone managed to get new terrains to spawn on random maps?
I don't think so. Anyway, you can if you replace existing terrains or tile improvements. (How the AI will cope with these I have no idea) Unless you can find a way to change the UI layouts to incorporate new TI, I don't know. However, the Misc section of the TI laying box has spce for about two or three new ones perhaps.

3) Can colonies be duplicated? If anything make them like cities with 1 tile control area and with no pop or city screen? this is for the resources situation (and maybe the airbase should have 1 tile control, I know they can do it because I built an airbase in enemy after i gave a city away and it gave me the tile back, i had to have a forify a troop on the PW part and it gave it to me once finished. I then played a game trying to make bases, I think a unit could make this easier).

Colonies have been added as one size no radius, no growing cities already (I think). Try searching the history of this forum. It was a city though, capable of building stuff, and with a city screen.

4) Can we have drafting like civ3?

Ask and ye shall receive I think this is very possible.

5) precision bombing?

huh? How does that work? We can target nukes already. I guess we could add that ability to other units somehow...

Thanks for the help guys.

CtP2 is soooo much easier to mod.

[kaan]

Is it possible to make a unit (like a worker) that once fortified acts like an airbase (an can't be unfortified) or even captured.

i really like the idea of a forward airbase/radar outpost that can be build in no mans land.

i think this could be done in the same way that a settler builds a city, or what if you made it like a modern fortress that can be build anywhere if you have a unit there (arent they like this in the WWII scen from activision?).

i hope someone makes this real

klaus

[Locutus]

Originally posted by E
I agree workers can be annoying. My real intent was trying to find a way to build roads, fortresses, and ESPECIALLY airbases outside of your borders. Because I found this annoying in CTP2. Is it possible to make a unit (like a worker) that once fortified acts like an airbase (an can't be unfortified) or even captured.

I don't have much time right now but I'll say this: you can already build fortresses in neutral territory, how hard can it be to adapt airbases (or roads) to do the same?

Anyway, I briefly looked into cultural borders (mind you that borders currently don't depend on popululation but are fixed at 4, city radii are based on population), and my prototype game seemed to work fine. The only 'problem' is that (unlike in Civ3) the borders can never be smaller than the city radius (so a size 12 city will always have borders of size 2 or larger), but that's not that big a deal. When I have some more time (hopefully this week) I'll see if I can refine the concept of borders a little, make it look more like Civ3 and maybe add some other interesting features (making roads/airbases buildable in neutral territory is high on my list).

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Locutus
I don't have much time right now but I'll say this: you can already build fortresses in neutral territory, how hard can it be to adapt airbases (or roads) to do the same?

That is easy:

Look at this code concerning the fortress in the tileimp.txt:

## 8 

TILEIMP_FORTIFICATIONS {
   Icon ICON_TILEIMP_FORTIFICATIONS
   Tooltip TOOLTIP_TILEIMP_SELECT_FORT_BUTTON
   Statusbar STATUSBAR_TILEIMP_SELECT_FORT_BUTTON
   Level 1
   IntBorderRadius 2
   SquaredBorderRadius 5
   Class:Structure1

The improtant lines are IntBorderRadius and SquaredBorderRadius. So add these lines to other tileimprovements maby you should reduce the numbers. Unfortunatly I never played with these numbers therefore I don't know the exact effect. So you can make it that you can place every tile improvement with these lines in the vision range of one your units, cities and of course also tileimprovements.

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Technically you can add terrains and tile improvements and no-one has found any limit. To make them show in the game will require some adjustments to the relevant text files.
Aside: erm.. has anyone managed to get new terrains to spawn on random maps?
I don't think so. Anyway, you can if you replace existing terrains or tile improvements. (How the AI will cope with these I have no idea) Unless you can find a way to change the UI layouts to incorporate new TI, I don't know. However, the Misc section of the TI laying box has spce for about two or three new ones perhaps.

In the theory the *.til file format gives you space for 65535 terrain graphics. But for one terrain you need more graphics than one. And there is an internal structure (the reason why you find the forest terrain not at the beginning of that file) that uses CTP2 in comparision CTP1 you have 99 places for terrains, but if you remove the plains and tundra terrain from the beginning from this file and put theese two terrains to the end you will have space for 255 terrains and I think this should be enough.

From the internal structure it looks that you have space for 65535 tile improvement graphics.

To show up new terrains on random generated maps you have to give your new terrain one of the standart internal types like forest or dersert...
Or you could use slic. I considered something like the Seven Samurai scenario on a random generated map. Of course a lot of slic, but this would be so awesome.

The Ai places the production and food improvements with the highest effect, even if they aren't available for the human over tile improvement pad. So you shouldn't worry about that part. And I think the same thing is true for roads. You have to worry about commerce improvements, defence and listening post/radar like improvements.

I never found a way to add something to the user interface, like more buttons for the tile improvement panel. You can just resize windows replace the graphic stuff and put into these windows the valid elements on the position where you want. In CTP1 this TI panel wouldn't be a problem as it is there a list box but in CTP2 it is a fix box.
To make more tile improvements for the human availabe just use the obsolete flag in the tileimp.txt and replace this TI by a more advanced one.

-Martin

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Colonies have been added as one size no radius, no growing cities already (I think). Try searching the history of this forum. It was a city though, capable of building stuff, and with a city screen.

I wrote the thread with this idea. Just change in all ctp2_data\default\gamedata\citysize*.txt (* is a number) the lines below CITYSIZE_ZERO to:

CITYSIZE_ZERO {
		Population	 0
		SquaredRadius	 0
		IntRadius	 0

and create a unit to build size zero cities. A new kind of settler wich has the last lines changed to:

SettleCityType	UNIT_CITY		
SettleSize	0

That way this unit builds colonies (size 0 cities). This cities cant grow, build (it has no workers), get food, science or gold. Still they can get the goods in its radius (the radius become the city itself)

The problems are:
1) When it receives slaves it become a regular city. Maybe through slic you can avoid slaves to go to size zero cities.

2) A size zero flag is really annoyng to see. I know this is not a problem. Maybe someone could change the city sprite of this cities.

3) Of course, teach the AI to use it.

[Ekmek]

still hunting down the tutorials, i figure going through them will take away. In the meantime I have been able to access civ3 unit flc so I'll see what i can do about making them into ctp2 sprites.

[The Big Mc]

that sound so cool what kind of future units are there in civ 3 any way

[Ekmek]

Hey Big MC, I guess you already figured that civ3 has just about ZERO future units (I'm not a big future fan so its ok).

But if anyone can give the low down on how to make spr for CTP2 I'll go about converting Civ3 units. if anything to add to the library, the units do have pretty good graphics.

I have Jasc Paint Shop Pro 7.0, Corel draw (and can get some others if need be). If anyone can tell me whats best to use and and easy step by step, I'll get right to it. (I saw the recent sprites thread and you guys through some CTP2 modding community jargon in there)


thanks

E

[The Big Mc]

you downloaded the sprite maker from apolyton yet

(a hope you have read the sprite extractor thread)

then use hyper cam to capture the pictures of civ 3

and then use sprite maker to do it

I myself have had a lot of problems with sprite maker,

shame about the future units but I may be able to use some modern ones .

[Ekmek]

Ok I finally got the sprite maker and I'm going to get to work now. The readme only describes the 5 files to make a sprite and not the attacking animation and walking animation, but I gues I'll try that once i figure this out.

Anyways If any wants to help out with some of the units of "CTP2: The way Civ3 should of been" I'll post some here.

[The Big Mc]

hello E

if you send me some of the civ3 units and names I will do the unit icons for you.

I have a way to get around 500 mg home for Christmas so it's just the download size try to keep it to 30 meg

I have both WinZip winrar and winace so you can compress it.

if I don't hear from you with the sprites by tomorrow at 10.30 it will have to wait until after the holidays.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by E
Ok I finally got the sprite maker and I'm going to get to work now. The readme only describes the 5 files to make a sprite and not the attacking animation and walking animation, but I gues I'll try that once i figure this out.

Anyways If any wants to help out with some of the units of "CTP2: The way Civ3 should of been" I'll post some here.

I'll give it a go. If you want to just post the animation of the units, I'll hack them out as well if needed.

The animations are surprisingly hard to get the script correct for, it took me thousands of attempts to get my battering ram to have both attack and death animations So here is the script file I used.

[Ekmek]

Here is the first set of the Aegis Cruiser, there are three more (fidget, Default, Run). I'll try to get all civ3 units up over the weekend.

[Immortal Wombat]

dp

[Immortal Wombat]

I'm beginning to think this could take a while...
We have:
Movement
Attack
Death
Idle
Action animations, each with 16 frames in each direction...

5*5*16 = 400 per unit. + 400 shadows

Ouch.

[The Big Mc]

Got the ships expect the unit icons and grate library script to be here in Jan.

and wombat it could be worse we could have to draw the pics with me doing the icons and you two starting on the sprites if we get are selves organized it won't take that long. It just may be one of the longest running threads in the history of apolyton that's all. just wait till I get all the units the icons wont take too long.

[lev]

IMO, the biggest thing Civ3 has going for it is the fact that strategic resources are needed to build certain units, and that if you don't have 'em, you can get 'em by trading. It adds a great strategic tension to the game, and makes plundering raids very worthwhile.

Aside from the above, CtP2 (heck, even CtP1) has a lot more to offer than Civ3.

If you SLICsters could get something like this going for CtP2, that would be awesome!