What's up with borders?

Crom · December 5, 2001, 11:01

Am I the only one who finds the concept of territorial borders being based on culture, as opposed to city position and size, somewhat bizarre?

The idea that my size 12 city can only dominate a standard city area, while a size 4 city with a library, temple etc can dominate a much larger area doesn't make sense.

Why has the excellent system from SMAC not been used in Civ3?

Wrong_shui · December 5, 2001, 11:10

SMAC is SMAC
Civ3 is Civ3.

And thats the only reason i can guess at.

AHO · December 5, 2001, 11:23

I'm sure you're using the term "borders" loosely. The AI comes gallivanting across your "borders" to settle the only square inch of grass remaining in the center of your civ, which they magically gleaned from the other side of the world, and YOU are the bad guy when you tell them to leave. And when they ignore you and settle there anyway, and thrive seemingly without suffering the costs of corruption and waste that rendered useless your settlements on the continent merely one water square away, again YOU are the bad guy for attacking them and the entire world will gang up on you for your treachery.

Whew. Thanks...I feel better!

Crom · December 5, 2001, 11:40

I know what you mean AHO. That has happened to me too many times, and has to be my pet hate.

At least in SMAC you had an increased chance of stopping that happening to you, without having to compact all your cities too close together.

I would also say that I have always regarded SMAC as a game in the CIV genre. Isn't it the real sequel to Civ II?

mattcj · December 5, 2001, 11:41

Quote:

Originally posted by AHO
I'm sure you're using the term "borders" loosely. The AI comes gallivanting across your "borders" to settle the only square inch of grass remaining in the center of your civ, which they magically gleaned from the other side of the world, and YOU are the bad guy when you tell them to leave. And when they ignore you and settle there anyway, and thrive seemingly without suffering the costs of corruption and waste that rendered useless your settlements on the continent merely one water square away, again YOU are the bad guy for attacking them and the entire world will gang up on you for your treachery.

Whew. Thanks...I feel better!

Anybody got some cheese for this whine?

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine....

Quit playing the game and posting here if it brings so much grief.

Vonotar · December 5, 2001, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Crom
Am I the only one who finds the concept of territorial borders being based on culture, as opposed to city position and size, somewhat bizarre?

The idea that my size 12 city can only dominate a standard city area, while a size 4 city with a library, temple etc can dominate a much larger area doesn't make sense.

Why has the excellent system from SMAC not been used in Civ3?

City size should have a part to play in the expansion of your borders, but I still think it's right that culture should have the biggest part.

The AI should be programmed not to build a city on a square unless all adjoining squares are free

Zealot · December 5, 2001, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Crom
Why has the excellent system from SMAC not been used in Civ3?

You have got to be joking!

That system penalized the civ which built cities sooner! Then another civ would come and build a city right next to your border, and you would lose a large amount of terrain to expand!
And that forced me to declare war many times!

Antonin · December 5, 2001, 12:57

Quote:

Originally posted by mattcj

Anybody got some cheese for this whine?

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine....

Quit playing the game and posting here if it brings so much grief.

THANK you, Mattcj!!!! A voice of sanity among tidal waves of whining!

Hate Civ3?

Don't play it.

Sell it and get on with your life.

Consider that maybe computer games aren't the kind of hobby that can bring you much enjoyment.

Or...design your own game.

AHO · December 5, 2001, 15:39

Oh please, Matt and Anton, like you haven't noticed this stuff as well. Besides, it's not a whine, it's a mere statement of fact. If it wasn't for we "whiners" pointing out the areas that needed improving, do you think that Firaxis would have been so quick to put out the forthcoming patch, the text of which has been printed today. Read all those things in that text that needed to be fixed. Hey, look, it's most of the things that people have been "whining" about! Good job gang!

Matt, it's GOOD grief for me!

AHO · December 5, 2001, 16:04

I'll just share a quick quote with the humorless Matt and Anton then I'm done with this section because, according to this quote, the problem in question has been addressed in the patch. Good thing the "whiners" brought this stuff to their attention!
From Soren at Firaxis:

[question to Soren] Soren - What about reducing the AI's desire to build a city in every possible unclaimed location, even when that city is nearly certain to be culturally assimilated? You've mentioned earlier that you were reviewing this for the patch. I'm not sure what is meant by "Cultural priority of AI has been reduced" - is that this?

That was probably poorly worded... yes, the AI is now less willing to found a city in a location in which it will obviously convert ot an enemy civ.-Soren

mattcj · December 5, 2001, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by AHO
Oh please, Matt and Anton, like you haven't noticed this stuff as well. Besides, it's not a whine, it's a mere statement of fact. If it wasn't for we "whiners" pointing out the areas that needed improving, do you think that Firaxis would have been so quick to put out the forthcoming patch, the text of which has been printed today. Read all those things in that text that needed to be fixed. Hey, look, it's most of the things that people have been "whining" about! Good job gang!

Matt, it's GOOD grief for me!

Do you really think that Firaxis reads these forums to find out all the bugs? I guarentee that they shipped, knowing some of these bugs were in the system but they were probably deemed too risky to fix right before the release. As a software developer myself, I know for a fact that these things happen.

And I really don't mind when the AI drops cities "behind" my borders. I don't even have to take it by force... I know I'll get it by culture sooner or later. And usually, those cities don't grow very fast at all which is probably due to the corruption that, yes, even the AI must suffer.

Dravin · December 5, 2001, 16:44

He never stated he hated the game. So your oh so intelligent quips of "If you hate it don't play it an leave' aren't really all that valid. Also AHO was venting, 'tis a quite different thing then whining.

If somebody does not think the game is perfect and they point this out they are no whining. I don't know what you guys are using as the definition, but it's a weird one. There are some whiners, and there are some plain old *******s but that really isn't the case here. I've seen it on every game forum I've visited, and it's always the same for some people, if the game isn't perfect in your mind you're whining.

Those that crusade to ***** about the game (there are a few) are just as annoying as those that crusade to ‘defend’ it.

AHO · December 5, 2001, 17:08

Hi, Matt, me again. I don't mind having an intelligent discussion about this topic so I appreciate your last reasoned response. Dravin's right, I don't hate the game--I LOVE THIS GAME! Which is why I'm happy that repairs are on the way.

I realize that the city that the AI built in the middle of my civ will eventually be assimilated culturally, but what I find, or shall I say "found" irritating (since this has been "tweaked"in the patch) about this AI strategerie is that I DIDN'T WANT A CITY THERE. They build it in a tiny spot that will infringe upon the surrounding cities' production squares and reduce their overall effectiveness. I think this is what Vonotar is refering to as well.

Hey Crom. Does this have ANYTHING to do with your original question?!?!?!?!
No, thought not! Cheers anyway!

Morganstern · December 5, 2001, 17:39

In my experience, this "problem" is easily handled. I have workers up the ying-yang and don't need them all. Whenever the Iroquois began wandering around, looking for a place to plant a settler squarely in my territory, I just put the worker on that square(s). If there was something to do there, fine. If not, the worker just stood there. The Iroquois got the message and moved on.

GodSpawn · December 5, 2001, 18:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Dravin
Also AHO was venting, 'tis a quite different thing then whining.

The difference between venting and whining, is that whining has a little more thought behind it...

Crom · December 6, 2001, 05:54

Ah, yes .... borders. Thanks for the reminder AHO, I'd almost forgotten what the question I originally asked was.

I think I'll give Morganstern's 'Worker Blockade' tactic a try.