Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[Venger]

Originally posted by eclarkso
This looks like semantics games--regardless of the details, you did bring up rape in conjunction with a discussion about a video game release.

Oh WHATEVER! I didn't say I was raped, the game was rape, or compare ANYTHING IN THE GAME to rape. For God's sake...

Your definition of uncivil is for someone to say you're ranting about something? That's a pretty strict defininition...it's not as if rant is some kind of perjorative.

It certainly carries that vernacular connotation (click me).

What term would be better for you? In any case, his point is valid--people should try to be more civil, irrespective of his supposed hypocrisy.

Civility always yields more result than incivility.

Venger

[Rasputin]

where is this patch ????

[Jaybe]

Yin, I read so much of your complaining, and then you go and make a whole post of qualifying all the complaints you'd made.

My point is, I had just decided to write you off as far as paying attention to whatever you write, and then you post to moderate all that you had said (good timing, by the way).

Can you imagine how frustrating that is?!
---
(Venger, OTH, seems to be getting hotter under the collar by the hour)

[Barkeep49]

Originally posted by yin26
LOL! You new here pal? Boy, you got a long road ahead if you think this is me whining! Oh, this is me being nice. Trust me. Ask around.

Well that certainly makes the polemics so much more tolerable for the casual read such as myself.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Jaybe
(Venger, OTH, seems to be getting hotter under the collar by the hour)

You know what's stupid? This thread isn't talking about the patch anymore, rather it's hijacked off into "Shut up Venger, all you do is complain" and "Eat $hit you obsequious histrionic schoolgirl, all you do is whimper when people criticize".

This happens in other threads too, usually because someone throws a name calling bomb or somesuch and moves the topic away from the game and onto the game players...

Unfortunate.

Venger

[Childe Roland]

Yin, I truly am curious as to why you must restate every negative point again and again. As those of us who enjoy the game discuss it, you seem compelled to rebut every single positive account. Not that you care, but do you have any idea how annoying it is getting.

Keep in mind, I am frustrated by the bugs. I hate the air superiority bug (the most unforgivable bug in the game, IMHO) but it does not prevent me from completely enjoying the game. Detracts some, yes. Ruins, no.

Obviously, this was a deal breaker for you, that's fine. I disagree. Why do you feel so compelled to change my mind (or anyone on this forum)? The majority of your opposition doesn't seem to be trying to change your mind, they just ask you to go away.

Venger,
Good God man. This is just sad. The man hours you must have spent dissecting every dissenting post, line by line. Your so full of rage in some of your posts that it boggles the mind to realize this is a computer game forum. Your attacks aren't as annoying as Yin's. No, yours command some sick fascination. Like having to look at a gruesome car wreck, always wondering how far it will go, how bad it can get.

You get this worked up over a game? I really am curious as to how you react to life's other annoyances or disappointments. Is your rage fed by the strength you feel in forum anonymity? Or do you react as angry and childish in real life as well? Are your posts just an attempt to impress us with your pseudo intellectual ravings?

Gentlemen (assuming, sorry if I'm wrong), I have been on the software release crusade. I hate the tolerance that we as consumers seem to have for these buggy releases. But this is such a poor example for the rushed software crusade. It does detract from the game, but I for one am still enjoying it. While the bugs (and the willingness of the company(s) to release it buggy) do detract from the game, I still enjoy it.

For me, it kills that final point, only a 9 out of 10. Blows the chance for a perfect score, IMHO. But still leaves a fabulous game that I enjoy. I have gotten my money's worth. I enjoy playing the game. I spend my time doing that because I find it fun. I will apply the patch to add to my fun.

Why does this make me a fanboy?

To some up. It seams you both have gone well past the discussion that this forums exists for. It seems that now, it is no longer about expressing your opinion, but about converting others to your line of thinking ..... and if you can't do that, you seem satisfied to at least ruin the discussion for the rest of us.


Oh yeah, btw:

Firaxians, thanks for the patch .... and thank you even more for communicating with your fan base in these trenches .... er, ... forums. (Venger would call that kissing ass ... it's not possible for me to actually feel some gratitude for there efforts so I must be kissing ass because I never should have needed the patch. When you pay for a meal, then thank the waitress for her great attitude and service .... even though the steak was tough ... is that just kissing ass?)

[Cavalier_13]

Originally posted by Venger

No way. I just loaded my game, democracy, worker takes 3 turns to irrigate. This is a captured Egyptian worker I am using.

There's your problem right there. Captured workers work 50% slower, so if you are in a democracy without replacement parts, a road on a plains or a grassland will take you 2 turns with a native worker, 3 turns with a captured one. With replacement parts under a democracy, it will take 1 turn for the native worker and 1 - 2 turns with a captured one (it varies, at least it does in my game, and I can't explain why...some times 1 turn, sometimes 2.)

Be warned though......if you build a worker in a city you own with foreign nationals, there is a possibility that the worker will not be native to you, even though you built that same worker.

Caveat Emptor.

Cavalier

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Venger
Okay...so was it a crime to ask instead of poke through 200+ pages? I didn't say there were, I asked if there were...

My problem was more with the multiple complaining posts on the same issue, when things like lack of engineers, etc were already covered in the game. Most of the complaints i read at Apolyton would never be made if people played the game a bit, and understood some of the concepts.

Come on - you think it's native to look through the entire tech tree to determine if a unit gets some special bonus at some point? That's too obtuse even for you to buy... I didn't notice it in the tree, but I shouldn't be expected to look through the techs to see if each one makes modifications for existing units...ESPECIALLY when the pages on workers in the manual and index don't mention any bonus...

No, i didnt expect you to have stumbled onto that one. I only found it because i was searching for the exact technology that increases the worker rate. My reason for listing it was so you had access to all the information regarding workers.
And i agree that the worker entry should have a link to Replacable Parts - Take note Firaxis

No way. I just loaded my game, democracy, worker takes 3 turns to irrigate. This is a captured Egyptian worker I am using.

Too easy All captured workers work at HALF the rate of the workers you built. Its a good idea to keep them around though, as you dont pay any upkeep for them, unlike your own built workers.

Try it again, but use a worker just labelled "Worker". It should take only 1 turn to do the irrigation.

I don't need help beating the game, it's all too beatable. My strategy is fine - I build and kick a$$. I own half the map in my first game, am 1st in every meaningful way, own half the power graph, etc. I don't need "help", I need "enjoyment".
That's great, one step in the right direction - I quit playing when I realized I would need 25 units to take each city, 4 to take it and 21 to hold it. That's not acceptable, and it was the last straw...it wasn't just workers man...

Maybe i didnt phrase that well. Anyway, what i meant was you appear to be playing Civ 3 as though it was Civ 2. For example, why are you holding enemy cities?? Burn them to the ground, and build a loyal one in its place. If you must hold the city, bombard it down to size 1, and you only need the defenders to hold the city. 25 units to take a city?? 8 modern armour units can take a city built on hills, even if defended by 3 vet mech inf. Vel's thread can show you a different way to play Civ 3, which just might allow you to enjoy the game.

That would be a tremendous step in the right direction. Why isn't it in the patch? Is this NOT seen as a pressing need?

Why ask me?? Id guess that they tried, but it would have delayed the patch even longer. If it makes it in the next patch, ill be very happy.

??? Why they enjoy the game isn't really germaine...

Some people here will have the same tastes as you, the same style of play, etc. If you can understand why they are having fun with the game, then perhaps you could emulate that.

Come on - I have posted NUMEROUS suggestions for the game. It may make your postition more tenable to pretend that all I do is post "Civ3 sucks" all the time, but I post what my problems are in detail, and almost always offer some information as to how it can be better and why it should be.

Perhaps, perhaps not. If your serious about making constructive suggestions, theres a thread organised by TechWins listing suggestions for the second patch.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Childe Roland
Venger,
Good God man. This is just sad. The man hours you must have spent dissecting every dissenting post, line by line. Your so full of rage in some of your posts that it boggles the mind to realize this is a computer game forum. Your attacks aren't as annoying as Yin's. No, yours command some sick fascination. Like having to look at a gruesome car wreck, always wondering how far it will go, how bad it can get.

A point is coming soon I trust...

You get this worked up over a game? I really am curious as to how you react to life's other annoyances or disappointments.

Who's worked up over a game?

Is your rage fed by the strength you feel in forum anonymity? Or do you react as angry and childish in real life as well? Are your posts just an attempt to impress us with your pseudo intellectual ravings?

That last line is rich - just what is your post? Clearly not about the game, no, like other hall monitor chime ins you are far more interested in discussing people than product.

Why does this make me a fanboy?

Fanboys will attack anyone who attacks their false idol. Rather than debate points, they debate the validity of their opponents. They cannot accept that their emperor has no clothes.

To some up. It seams you both have gone well past the discussion that this forums exists for. It seems that now, it is no longer about expressing your opinion, but about converting others to your line of thinking ..... and if you can't do that, you seem satisfied to at least ruin the discussion for the rest of us.

Whatever, skip our posts then. After all you do that anyways, not actually looking at their content but rather their intent.

Firaxians, thanks for the patch ....

Did you not pay for the game?

and thank you even more for communicating with your fan base in these trenches .... er, ... forums.

They have been notably ABSENT from the forums. People have asked questions on tons of topics that could benefit from developer input, but...no dice.

(Venger would call that kissing ass ... it's not possible for me to actually feel some gratitude for there efforts so I must be kissing ass because I never should have needed the patch. When you pay for a meal, then thank the waitress for her great attitude and service .... even though the steak was tough ... is that just kissing ass?)

Nice lame analogy that has no real translatability to the current situation.

Venger

[Venger]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Skanky Burns

Too easy All captured workers work at HALF the rate of the workers you built.

Lazy ba$tards...

Its a good idea to keep them around though, as you dont pay any upkeep for them, unlike your own built workers.

Micromanagement hell, now magnified - shouldn't they assimilate the same as my citizens?

Maybe i didnt phrase that well. Anyway, what i meant was you appear to be playing Civ 3 as though it was Civ 2. For example, why are you holding enemy cities?? Burn them to the ground, and build a loyal one in its place.

That's bankrupt game design - conquering the world is not the same as burning it to the ground. I find the concept of taking an enemy city and burning it to the ground as almost offensive. I didn't attack the Germans just to empty their lands, but to take their cities. I am the FREAKING BORG DUDE.

If you must hold the city, bombard it down to size 1, and you only need the defenders to hold the city. 25 units to take a city?? 8 modern armour units can take a city built on hills, even if defended by 3 vet mech inf. Vel's thread can show you a different way to play Civ 3, which just might allow you to enjoy the game.

Ugh...dude, I can PLAY CIV3 just fine - 25 units, 4 to take the city, the rest to occupy it. Again, I can take any enemy city I want, but they revolt because they prefer their old "culture" unless I stock it with 20+ units. Sorry, that's just a joke. Sure, burn it to the ground, but that's just not right...the Germans didn't capture France to burn it to the ground...

Perhaps, perhaps not. If your serious about making constructive suggestions, theres a thread organised by TechWins listing suggestions for the second patch.

Every thread I post in I back up with meaningful information. I bet group movement was already in the first patch request - guess that didn't make it either...

Venger

[MarkG]

Venger, the next time you bypass the swearing filter, you'll be in Mingapulco for a week

thanks


btw, puting 20 units in a city to keep it
1) i dont think more units mace a difference beyond the first 3-5
2) there are more ways to to keep a city from revolting. perhaps you shhould be reading the strategy forum more....

[Pinochet]

I would like 3 basic things changed. These things are important enough to me that I will not buy any future versions of Civilization if they are not included:

1. Please eliminate the need to have the CD in to play the game!

I realize the problem with piracy, but I would rather deal with a registration such as that required by Windows XP or Office XP, than having to insert my disk everytime I want to play, or have to take it on the road with me to play the game on my laptop.

2. Would like to see a multiplayer option.

3. Would like to be able to customize my Civilization, its name, and default city list.

[player1]

One question for FIRAXIS team
(SOREN or DAN please read & comment this)

It is regarding obsolete units. I think there are some design problems.
Since unit obsolence is tied to to trier upgradeability, some strange things happend in game.

For exampe Swordsmen & Longbowmen never dissaper, because they are not upgadeable, and thus not OBSOLETE.
Same thing happens to those Friagtes & Ironclads.

While Swordmen solution can be done by making them upgadeable to Riflemen (I hope in next patch), upgarding Frigate seems little unrealistic.

So if you can make unit obsolence not depended from upgadebility, then from ability to build new unit (for ex: I can build destroyers so my Ironclads are obsolete, but I can't upgarde tyhose Ironclads).

Also some similar problems happen when you have some special units.
Like:
-you can build Fighters with Americans, althought you can also build F-15
-you can build Pikemen with French, althought you can also build Mutketeers
-you can't upgrade Pikemen to Riflemen, nor to Musketemen (if not in Musketeers)

If Kinght does not have ZOC & Horsemen has, I think someone would like to build Horsemen and make ZOC, although he discovered Chivarly.
But, its not alowed, because of this upgardeability system, to keep building Horsemen.

Some other things:
I think that Musketmen are much cost uneffective compared to Pikemen.
I mean for price of 2 Pikemen you build one Musketmen.
I think this can be solved by:
-decreasing cost of musketmen (or maybe also a rilfemen?)
-or by giving it an attack of 3

Tanks & Mech. Inf are not Wheeled. This is supposed to be BUG or not.
Having them wheeled would make them more strategicily interesting.

One a little not importand thing.
Can you make Riflemen Saltpeter dependent.
And after you dicover Industalisation them make them (and Cavalry also) non dependent.

I ask this because some starge things are happening in modern time:
Enemy in modern time has only a Horse resouce:
So he can only build Riflemen (Swor. & Long. also) and Kinght. A little starge combination. SO making Saltpeter Indusrialistion needed, this strage thing could be removed from game.

I could call this resource obsolence.

Also, is is possibile to do Hotseat MP in patch (second or third)?
You did it in SMAC. Activision did it in CTP.


I hope you'll resolve some of this things in next patch.
It would matter me a lot if someone from Firaxis replays to this post, so I now I didn't write for nothibng, and that sombody from Firaxis heard me.

At least: "We well look at that matter"


P.S.
to other Civers:
Why don't you make a new thread about is patch enough & is civ a good game now. I think this thread is just not appropritate for some of the comments written here.

to Markos: Why not make thread called "Suggestion for Firaxis", limited to one post per user with ability to edit. That way we would have some type of wish-list wich Firaxis would look at.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Pinochet
I would like 3 basic things changed. These things are important enough to me that I will not buy any future versions of Civilization if they are not included:

1. Please eliminate the need to have the CD in to play the game!

I realize the problem with piracy, but I would rather deal with a registration such as that required by Windows XP or Office XP, than having to insert my disk everytime I want to play, or have to take it on the road with me to play the game on my laptop.

2. Would like to see a multiplayer option.

3. Would like to be able to customize my Civilization, its name, and default city list.

Regarding #3, you can already do all of this within the editor.

Dan

[eRAZOR]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


Regarding #3, you can already do all of this within the editor.

Dan

The editor, of course. Perhaps you should put this in your signature - would definitely save you some time

[MarkG]

Originally posted by eRAZOR
The editor, of course. Perhaps you should put this in your signature - would definitely save you some time

if you cared to read what the response was about, someone asked how he could CUSTOMISE something....
are you against customisation?

[yin26]

Jaybe: LOL!

To whoever said I rebut every positive comment is just trolling. I have been open and honest about the things I like about Civ3. And if I'm 'annoying' to some of you, it's precisely BECAUSE I stay consistent with my message and don't go off on personal attacks.

This is annoying particularly to the people who want to blindly love a game that still needs some patching.

I am content to watch how things go.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
This is annoying particularly to the people who want to blindly love a game that still needs some patching.

live and let live yin....

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Pachabel
The patch looks very good, however, I didn't see anything mentioned regarding the trade bug where if you have a trade agreement with a civ that is wiped out by a third party, you get blamed for defaulting on the trade agreement.

I hope I missed it cause it's a huge bug.

Post it on the official Apolyton Bug List

[electro]

Originally posted by Sauron07
Im curious about the Great Lighthouse Change. Was the lighthouse not designed to allow ocean travel(ie was this a bug because I wasnt aware the lighthouse was broken)?

I think limiting galleys to sea square until navigation or magnetism are researched will really affect gameplay on Island or high water % maps. If you start out isolated on an island or small continent by the time you can get to those techs(especially researching them on your own without trading) you will be so far behind in tech if the ai's have contacted each other that it will be very difficult to catch up on higher difficulties and there wont be any unoccupied territory to colonize anyway.

Do others see this as a positive change? Im more surprised at it than upset, but am interested how other people feel about it.

Yes I think also that the lighthouse bug should stay. The lighthouse looses a lot if that is removed.
I also hope that the autoattack-if-close from SMAC(dont rember the correct name) will be implemnted.
Anoter thing I am furios about is that settlers will walk(long distance autowalk) right into a square that have barbarians next to it or enemys.

[Cesa]

Originally posted by eclarkso


Can you say whether this will be the only fix? I happen to USE the Lucida font in Word documents...I'd like to continue to do so...

I'm not sure, but I guess it'd be enough to rename the font(s), no problem in Civ3 and you can use them in Word.

Unfortunately I guess this means you will have to edit every old Word document so it uses the right font, but it might still be a solution.

[Cesa]

Originally posted by zoyd

You've got 4 tanks ready to kill a lone infantry defending a city. Save game. Attack. Lose 3 tanks. Get mad. Reload. Lose 3 tanks again. Get mad. Reload. Lose 3 tanks again. Give up -- reload, wait a turn, and then watch a single tank absolutely decimate the infantry w/o losing a single hp.

That doesn't strike me as random. It was a FOREGONE CONCLUSION that infantry was immortal for the turn.

This is a feature, not a bug. If you reload a saved game and do the exact same attack you did before the reload, the result will be the same. This is to avoid cheating by "saving/reloading until my unit win".

[Zealot]

Originally posted by AustralianJeremy
I agree with you. It's actually like when SMAC wouldn't allow you to use 640x480. Frankly, with games like SMAC and Civ3 in which it would be EASY to support lower resolutions (you'd just see less terrain at once) - I can't believe that Firaxis would just BLOCK a large chunk of users out.

The irony of this is that you CAN see the terrain on 800x600 on the Civ Editor!
And trust me, you basically see the same terrain in 800x600 as in 1024x768.
This is a mystery that Firaxis seems to keep it sacred.

[sophist]

Not that I don't agree with you, but they want you to buy their next game. Same reason hardware manufacturers release updated drivers long after the card is obsolete (like you can still get new Nvidia TNT2 drivers almost 3 years later).

Originally posted by ntyatecafe


Y'know, you did unintentionally bring up a good point. I'm sure that these fine folks at FireAxis have many other projects to work on right now, so why are they even wasting time building free patches for a game that is already making them money...hmmm, following that logic, they are losing a little money doing these patches...why? Because they care. They care what people think of their games, even whining insuggnificant no-goods such as yourself. Why else would they spend time reading and answering messages on a forum...why else would they spend time and money on building fixes for already released and sold games, instead of working on the next game that brings in a buck?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by MarkG
Venger, the next time you bypass the swearing filter, you'll be in Mingapulco for a week

I always thought Mingapulco was some place nice to be!
Gess not...

But it's kind of funny to see in an OT thread **** Chenney in place for, well, you know, his first name!

Sorry for the jacking...

[sophist]

Not to get too too demanding, but on the occasion that you want to activate these workers, do you have to track them down? If there was some relatively easy way to do "activate all workers on pollution duty" that'd be cool.

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


I am pretty sure that you can get the functionality you want out of your worker (re: pollution) once the patch comes out using shift+A. Using that command, the worker will auto-improve land, but they won't switch mines/irrigation or chop down forests. They will, however, clean-up pollution, then go back to cities and just wait for more pollution to appear. In this patch, automated units ('A' or shift+'A') will now skip their moves instead of waking up. Workers with "orders" (road-to, clean up pollution, build road network) will still wake up when done.

[sophist]

Ships don't directly attack cities; they bombard. As there's no (AFAIK) artillery exchange when a tile with an artillery piece on it gets bombarded, I expect this won't happen.

Originally posted by ElitePersian
question: if i have an artillery unit fortified in a city that is being attacked by a ship, will it automatically attack the ship?
if it doesnt, i think it should cause ships are too effective on the coast.

[sophist]

There's also the possibility that they were introduced when fixing more severe bugs. As in the cure being bad, but not so bad as the disease.

Originally posted by Simpleton


I guess but some of the bugs that they fixed seemed so obvious. I'm sure they were present long before the deadline ever approached and really should have been noticed and addressed at that time.

[Kolyana]

Originally posted by Cesa


This is a feature, not a bug. If you reload a saved game and do the exact same attack you did before the reload, the result will be the same. This is to avoid cheating by "saving/reloading until my unit win".

Whilst this may be a noble attempt to solve the reloading issue, it's bull.

What if you never attacked with the tanks this turn? That means that the computer has calculated battles that never took place ... and I can't believe that the game would truly go through the entire map and pre-calculate every possibility.

That would be stupid.

[Panzer]

Does anyone if the scenario-science advisor screen bug has been fixed. (you can't change research subjects in the advisor screen when playing a scenario). It's really annoying. Other than that: Good job Firaxis!