Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes

[gnomos]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis


It is basically flat for both factors now.

IOW, if you have 40% corruption in your capital, you will now also have 40% corruption in you most distant city.

I presume you mean the base rate of corruption? That is, building a courthouse and police station in my capital city under communism won't affect corruption rates across my entire empire?

[Jaybe]

Re EnigmaticGod posts

Originally posted by barefootbadass
You really are a jack@ss. You can't please everyone, and they clearly are working hard to balance the game and make it as fun as possible for everyone. PLEASE LEAVE if you are going to keep this crap up. You are not appreciated in this corner.

Psst! Let him be. He's not worth the trouble (literally). Feel free to ignore his posts -- don't even read them.

Can't you see the agony he's in?

[Zoroaster]

Sounds like the patch will help a lot of things. However, will there
be any attempt to resolve the SafeDisc-related problem that leaves some us unable to get anything past the intro splash screen, even with new CD drives?

I shouldn't have to get a cracked file to play a game I own...

Zoroaster

[Ludwig]

I don't know if Firaxians are still visiting this forum, but I'll take a shot at asking my only two questions about this patch:

1. The list indicates that an AI exploit in trading cities has been eliminated. Am I correct in the assumption that this is the exploit where the AI will trade for a city, even if you have surrounded it with troops and keep taking it back and trading it again? If so, how has this exploit been eliminated?

2. The list indicates that a saved game corruption problem has been fixed. I have a hard drive full of corrupted save games where the cities no longer appear on the map when the game is reloaded. From reading other forums, I have gotten the impression that this is due to a corruption that enters the game file when an AI civ loses all its cities, but still has a settler hanging out somewhere. Is this the corruption problem that has been solved? Will this patch allow old saved games that have this problem to be reloaded?

Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

[cousLee]

Patch: fixes game bugs, things not working, and balance isses
Expansion Pack: adds new features. (ie, multiplayer)

I really wish Firaxis would quit combining these two.

Since it was only brought up once, and not responded to. I will echo it.

In the next PATCH, please fix the pollution production bug. It makes city mm a real PITA.

Other than that, it looks like a great first patch. (and those that know me, know how critical I am).

Oh yea, and the sssoouunndd problems lems lems.

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by ntyatecafe


I've just started playing the game myself, and I know there are some problems with it, but name one game that was perfectly operational with no errors/bugs/problems or criticisms right from the start.

Heh, I'll take a stab at that. The games 'Nibbles' and 'Gorilla' for DOS probably had no criticisms from their fans.

[Kaak]

...

[Venger]

Originally posted by Jaybe

100+ workers?!
No wonder you were upset! What the 'bleep' were you doing with that many workers??

(On large maps (continents), I've only had 30+ so far)

Dude, I had 200 workers in my game. It sucked the life force out of me. I had them because the game engine REQUIRES me to cover every square with road and railroad in order to achieve the best results. Don't blame me, blame the person who thought every square inch of land required railroad...

Venger

[yin26]

Yes, I had read more than one person having 200 workers or more. I never got that crazy with it ... by 100, I had had enough. One can always NOT maximize the land, of course, but this goes against one of the important strategies of the game, and to have implemented it this way is disappointing.

The question is: Can it be changed, even in an XP? And there are those who claim to LIKE moving all the workers around. We'll see, I guess. A kick-a$$ automate (fully featured) function would make it quite cool.

[Venger]

Some comments re: the patch...

First - stop thanking Firaxis for the patch. A patch is THE LEAST they can do for you, the person who paid THEM money. Thanking them is saying "thank you sir, may I have another"...

Second - alot of commentary before even loading the patch. Yes, it's nice they seem to have fixed some bugs, but the GREAT PATCH comments (and their equivalents) are WAY premature. What possible weight can anyone give to the patch not having played a single game with it?

Third - Some bug fixes are present, but that's it. It looks like what you got in Civ3 is pretty much what you're gonna get. And that's a profound disappointment. Want to upgrade units in an army, or move them in and out? Civ4. Starting positions, etc... Civ4. Too much seems undone...as Firaxis moves on to a new project.

What has been done may indeed improve the game. Only gameplay testing will tell the tale. However, I think what some were hoping for in this patch was more dramatic that grammatical fixes in the Civilopedia...

Venger

[Cavalier_13]

Originally posted by barefootbadass


Heh, I'll take a stab at that. The games 'Nibbles' and 'Gorilla' for DOS probably had no criticisms from their fans.

Yeah, but they had a real small following.

Cavalier

[Ludwig]

While I agree with Venger about foolishness of the game mechanics required railroads on every square, I am still boggled by the numbers of workers being talked about here.

I play on the largest map possible, and I have never had that many workers. Not even close. And every square is developed within 30 or 40 turns of discovering steam power. What exactly are your little buggers DOING for the rest of the game?

Actually, I think many of the complaints about the worker automation system come about because the automator doesn't superficially appear to be working efficiently, even though in some bizarre counterintuitive way he's getting the job done. Just to see what would happen, I have been using Shift-A [NEVER just A. NEVER.] and only intervening when I want to maximize food somewhere [the automator has a mine bias], and intervening for a few turns when it comes time to get a railroad system going. The map is still just as covered with ugly looking improvements as it is when I'm in charge. My empire is still optimized well before the AI's is, probably because I build more workers than he does. [Still not 100 though.] Give the automator a shot, but be prepared to wait 100 turns for the logic of his approach to become apparent.

I'll go back to using the workers directly eventually, but it is fascinating to see the way the AI approaches the problem.

[Slax]

Two patch issues that were mentioned by Firaxis members in threads before today and seem to be missing:

1) Resource distribution for small maps

2) Something was said like "you won't have to wonder about the combat odds anymore". I expected this meant combat odds were to be presented.

Were these followed up on?

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Venger


Dude, I had 200 workers in my game. It sucked the life force out of me. I had them because the game engine REQUIRES me to cover every square with road and railroad in order to achieve the best results. Don't blame me, blame the person who thought every square inch of land required railroad...

Venger

Go to the editor and turn off mining for grasslands and plains. That way, railroads only help food production and that's pointless after a city is past size 21.

Or you could just play to win and not to achieve the "best results" -- whatever that is.

Best results = maximum playing fun.

[volcanohead]

"Dude, I had 200 workers in my game. It sucked the life force out of me. I had them because the game engine REQUIRES me to cover every square with road and railroad in order to achieve the best results. Don't blame me, blame the person who thought every square inch of land required railroad...

Venger"

Yeh, but...

When I've had a bunch of workers on automate they swiftly construct railroad throughout my empire as soon as I get Steam Power... Any glaring problems with food/production misbalance can be resolved manually. With the patch the workers will move invisibly. What's the bloody problem? (Ok, right now it's a real pain in the butt but if the patch works, then...).

Aesthetically it's not super great, but does that really kill all enjoyment for you?

And do you think that instead of saying 'Ta very much' it's better to have the 'right you bast@rds, lets see the bloody MP NOW!' approach?

I think there are issues with the game, but I also think you two (Yin & Venger) sometimes go out of your way to make playing the game a shltty experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(Sits back, waits for napalm death)

V

[ryguyamy]

I, for the life of me cannot find out how to zoom in or out when using the Civ III map editor. It's killing me! All I want is a zoomed out view of the map I've created to see if I've made everything to scale, like I had it planned. Someone tell me PLEASE if zooming just doesnt exist or there is a patch coming to fix or it or if there is a way to zoom in and out but I just haven't found it. Thank you all very VERY much.
Ryguy

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Ray K


ugh. I hope you are misunderstanding, or you need better programmers.

Ugh. I hope you are not stupid enough to post comments about stuff you don't understand. Speed-efficient graph search algorithms do indeed have exponential memory cost; they are not making this up.

(this is my first post BTW. Sorry to start off with a flame. Hi all.)
-Brian

[Saber_Cherry]

I doubt this will help you, but I feel like saying it anyway. I was unable to do anything in the editor. At least it didn't crash on me, but it seemed like nothing I clicked on had any effect on anything, and I couldn't figure out how to save it anyway. Eventually I decided all the mods have been made using hex editors. Oh well...

But the real reason for this post is - Partisans! Now that Privateers have been fixed, let us recall that pirate ships are only one form of "piracy", and there are also land-bound highwaymen, bandits, mercenaries, and so forth; and furthermore, it seems like most of the fighting the US has done since 1945 has been indirect, using partisans. I forget what partisans did in Civ2, but what they SHOULD do is act like a normal ground unit, able to attack, pillage, and plunder (but not capture cities, only raze them), but have no national markings, like privateers. To compensate they should be fairly expensive (US-subsidized commando missions, for example, have generally been very expensive and kind of weak due to corruption and poor training, compared to official operations.)

If I could figure out the editor, and if it was robust and full-featured like an athletic porn star, then I would just go ahead and add this myself. But I'm suggesting it here cuz I think it would be good in the next patch. I see it as the best solution for the AI moving annoying units through your territory and founding cities on your shore - just unleash the bandits on them!

[Venger]

Originally posted by volcanohead

When I've had a bunch of workers on automate they swiftly construct railroad throughout my empire as soon as I get Steam Power...

The first worker I automated proceeded to try and mine an irrigated square. That was the last worker I automated.

Any glaring problems with food/production misbalance can be resolved manually. With the patch the workers will move invisibly. What's the bloody problem? (Ok, right now it's a real pain in the butt but if the patch works, then...).

Resolved manually?

Aesthetically it's not super great, but does that really kill all enjoyment for you?

Kill all enjoyment? No, until I control 75 cities and two continents and cannot trust the AI to properly control my units. And it's still stunning that the game engine requires me to railroad every square in order to make a prosperous city.

And do you think that instead of saying 'Ta very much' it's better to have the 'right you bast@rds, lets see the bloody MP NOW!' approach?

I've never, EVER played Civ2 MP, and never have complained about it's absence (although it's ridiculous to not include it, when clearly the intention was to do so originally and in the year 2001 to ignore MP is inexcusable).

I think there are issues with the game, but I also think you two (Yin & Venger) sometimes go out of your way to make playing the game a shltty experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong, the shitty game experience came of the games accord, not mine, my complaints about it are well known, and I can defend all of them on gameplay and aesthetic grounds.

Venger

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by Venger


The first worker I automated proceeded to try and mine an irrigated square. That was the last worker I automated.

Hit Shift-A, and the workers will not undo any changes you have made manually.

[Venger]

Originally posted by Ray K

Go to the editor and turn off mining for grasslands and plains. That way, railroads only help food production and that's pointless after a city is past size 21.

Why is the solution to poor game design to "go to the editor". Did I buy Civ3 or the Civ Construction Set? Maybe I want my game to work and be fun out of the box?

Or you could just play to win and not to achieve the "best results" -- whatever that is.

I do play to win, and that requires maximum production of food, science, trade, and shields, and I get to tediously move units all over the map rairoad ever square... and this doesn't even touch on the other tedious aspects - no group movement, slowness of the game interface, etc...

Venger

[Glostakarov]

I rarely have over 30-40 workers, even on the largest maps. Usually when I have more it's because I happened to capture extra from the AI. Of course, I don't try to simultaneously improve every square in my empire either. Whether I have 20 cities or 100 I find that a core of about a dozen does most of my important work anyhow, and as long as I keep them up to snuff I can slack off on the rest. In the beginning rush of rails I make sure to connect all my cities up, but fully developing the ones that aren't as important can be put off.

Oh, BTW, Yin you misquoted Yoda

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

[volcanohead]

"The first worker I automated proceeded to try and mine an irrigated square. That was the last worker I automated.

Venger"

(sorry for editing you post)

So far shift-A has worked for me to stop workers from changing improvements...

That's one of the reasons why I said maybe you're going out of your way a bit...

V

and badtz-maru gets there first...

[Venger]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru

Hit Shift-A, and the workers will not undo any changes you have made manually.

That's great, what is it going to do to my non-improved squares? Should I babysit 200 workers to see if the AI is diçking those up too? I never trusted the Civ2 automated workers either. They definitely will do a worse job than I will, by a damn sight.

10 workers - human

turn 1

3 workers irrigate plain 1 (complete)
3 workers irrigate plain 2 (complete)
2 workers to grass 1
2 workers to grass 2

turn 2

2 workers road grass 1 (complete)
2 workers road grass 2 (complete)
3 workers irrigate grass 1 (complete)
3 workers irrigate grass 2 (complete)

Let the AI do it, and you'll end up with 4 workers dogpiled on a square on turn 1, the other 6 will dogpile on turn 2, before the road is built by the 4 workers who dogpiled the square on turn 1. So you have 6 wasted turns, coupled with the inefficiency of the two wasted turns by not splitting the roading up on different tiles. Or, you'll get workers working one at a time on the map, which returns benefits much more slowly than stacking them. The AI doesn't work or stack efficicently.

Venger

[volcanohead]

"Let the AI do it, and you'll end up with 4 workers dogpiled on a square on turn 1, the other 6 will dogpile on turn 2, before the road is built by the 4 workers who dogpiled the square on turn 1. So you have 6 wasted turns, coupled with the inefficiency of the two wasted turns by not splitting the roading up on different tiles. Or, you'll get workers working one at a time on the map, which returns benefits much more slowly than stacking them. The AI doesn't work or stack efficicently.

Venger"

Venger, you're right.

Not sure how hard it is to code a worker algorithm which will work as efficiently as a human in all situations. Imagine it's pretty tricky, to say the least...

Lame point following: Has ANY 4E game with a worker type unit ever approached human-like intelligence for tile improvement?

Are we simply making unrealistic demands? Or are Firaxis just crap?

V

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Venger
The first worker I automated proceeded to try and mine an irrigated square. That was the last worker I automated

So i see all your comments on worker automation are formed from extensive experience

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Slax
Two patch issues that were mentioned by Firaxis members in threads before today and seem to be missing:

1) Resource distribution for small maps

2) Something was said like "you won't have to wonder about the combat odds anymore". I expected this meant combat odds were to be presented.

Were these followed up on?

Re: #2 you're probably referring to my comments on AI bonuses, not combat odds. The editor has new options for difficulty level settings which will show you (and let you change) the AI's bonuses at each difficulty level.

Dan

[yin26]

I imagine programming any good automation like that is very hard, but the game as is is not close enough yet for my tastes. Call this picky if you will. For example, workers are supposed to go to the nearest city and 'sleep' when they see nothing else to be done. I see this happen only sometimes. Most of the time, my workers run from square to square to square doing literally nothing besides moving.

Also, the AI will often send 10 workers to one square to do work (leaving the work done before half of them ever arrive), which then pulls them away from an 'even' distribution across the map ... so eventually they bunch up in one place, making it difficult to respond to issues across the map in a timely manner. They will also often NOT clean up pollution automatically.

I am not saying this is an easy problem to fix, but it *is* a problem IMO. I hope it gets some attention.

Oh, BTW, Yin you misquoted Yoda

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Actually, Yoda misquoted me: We ejected him into deep space for 2 years as punishment.

[Master2000]

I still miss the sentry command. It was great to set guards in Civ2

[Jerk]

I too grow very tired of tedious worker movement. I typically like to have LOTS of workers to faster grow the cities I have. I exceeded 100 workers in one game and got real bored watching them dance around. With the patch I won't have to watch them now so that is a good step in the right direction. To further reduce this I have also edited the rules to the game. I made workers more expensive to build but made them work faster. The only thing I did not make faster was plant forest. I also increased their movement ability so they can get to the job quicker. How much you increase or decrease their cost, movement, and pace they work at is completely up to each individual. I also made them so they can be airlifted (Shuttling a worker across the ocean on a transport when I can transport a huge tank by air seemed silly to me). Now when I play the game I do not need so many of them. I also never do a straight simple automate. I always automate for roads, railroads, forest cutting, jungle cutting, or pollution. It works for me and I do not find myself bored with improving tiles.

I know a lot of Civ3's harshest critics will immediately come back and say they shouldn't have to edit the rules to make the game playable. I contend that the game even prior to the patch was very playable. I don't think it's a horrible thing to allow people to tweak the game to their liking. It's pretty easy and harmless to do. It's also pretty reasonable to ask people to open a simple editor and make the changes necessary to accomodate their preferences.

I also find it funny how people who claim to have returned their game posting so frequently. Surely they could simply read the very first page of this thread to check for progress in the game. Instead they poison almost every thread and when they do not get the attention they crave there they go and start another. It's really not accomplishing anything productive. Enough is enough.

You hate the game, I got it.
You returned the game, I got it.
You hate Firaxis or Infogrames, alrighty then.
You hate ____ in the game, ok, point noted and sometimes even agreed with........the FIRST time.

I guess I don't understand the whole purpose of repeating it over and over and over again.

Are you trying to convince other people of doing the same (return it)? If so, they should come to the same conclusions on their own and return the game on their own. People who really hate a product rarely need extra motivation to return it.

Are you trying to bring about change in the game? If so why not keep it and see how the patch changes the gameplay or balance issues? Or why not be more constructive and write your wishlist in a nice manner once or maybe twice and be patient.

Are you trying to punish Infogrames or Firaxis? I can understand being disappointed but by returning the game you really lost nothing other then some time. Since you post so frequenently I have to assume time is not that important. I have been playing games in one form or another for quite a long time now. I have been very disappointed with a great many titles. Never have I felt so bad that I needed to get some sort of revenge. I don't think it is likely that any other company will purchase the Civ name and make another game. If there is a 'Civ 4' then it most likely will be by Firaxis/Infogrames. If I am not mistaken it went from Microprose to Hasbro Interative to Infogrames. This means that Infogrames probably owns the Civ name. If I am wrong someone please correct me. I suppose it is possible that Infogrames goes elsewhere (Big Huge Games maybe) for the 4th Civ title but I doubt that will happen because the tag "Sid Mier's" is worth sales.

Are you trying to get people not to try the game out for themselves? If so then reread the previous paragraph.

Again, I would be more understanding if you could tell me what the point of all the negativity is.

(Edit: addition for clarification)

The end of my post does not reflect all those posting negative comments. Many have posted their complaints and suggestions in a civil and productive manner. I am not trying to shut up anyone to keep them from airing complaints.