Missing wonders

[Venger]

I know there's a list somewhere. So where is it?

My additions:

Wright Brothers flight (this one is kinda critical) - guess the effect?

Oh hell I have more but can't remember them right now...

Venger

I think we should distinguish between WoW and famous discoveries. I don't know if you could consider the Wright brother's flight a WoW. I mean, Civ 2 was stretching it with Darwin's Voyage and Women's sufferage etc. They aren't REALLY WoW. Don't get me wrong, they're extremely important to world history. But when I think WoW I think of the Great Library, Colossus, Pyramids...I mean these are things that set a Civilization apart from the next. I don't think you get many people coming to Wyoming to take pictures of the first women's ballot box

I think Wonder's should be more easily lost as well, similar to in real life. The colossus only lasted 60some years. The only ancient wonders left are the Great Wall and Pyramids. (I think all the others were destroyed or lost, right?)

On a seperate note, why do the Pyramids give a granary in every city?? Even Civ one had them as a governmental wonder, but granary? I just don't see that. I think it should be more of a religious wonder.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but I think we should keep the current wonder system. Seven for each epoch is good enough for me. If we do make more, just think how much production is going to be devoted to WoW just to make them fall within the right time frame!

Some other suggestions for WoW that I think would better fit are the Jewish Temple (Dalgetti?) and Bible (forget who suggested that)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 06:09 PM I think we should distinguish between WoW and famous discoveries. I don't know if you could consider the Wright brother's flight a WoW. I mean, Civ 2 was stretching it with Darwin's Voyage and Women's sufferage etc. They aren't REALLY WoW. Don't get me wrong, they're extremely important to world history. But when I think WoW I think of the Great Library, Colossus, Pyramids...I mean these are things that set a Civilization apart from the next. I don't think you get many people coming to Wyoming to take pictures of the first women's ballot box

Heh...but, it seems you attach the concept of wonder to a material construct. Maybe the problem is how we think of Wonder's of the World. While not a wonder than can be photographed, it clearly was a historical watershed. I would consider the Wright Brothers flight of greater historical importance than the Colossus.

quote: I think Wonder's should be more easily lost as well, similar to in real life. The colossus only lasted 60some years. The only ancient wonders left are the Great Wall and Pyramids. (I think all the others were destroyed or lost, right?)

I sense that grand construct thinking again...now you of course have good historical sense on the Colossus. But The Great Wall hasn't kept anyone out of China in hundreds of years, despite it's everpresence.

quote: On a seperate note, why do the Pyramids give a granary in every city?? Even Civ one had them as a governmental wonder, but granary? I just don't see that. I think it should be more of a religious wonder.

In Civ1 it did what the Statue of Liberty did...I think they just wanted a wonder to give graneries, and welp...that's it!

quote: I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but I think we should keep the current wonder system. Seven for each epoch is good enough for me. If we do make more, just think how much production is going to be devoted to WoW just to make them fall within the right time frame!

Maybe...dare I speak it...enabling wonders!! Wright Brothers and Manhattan Project are perfect examples. Wonders which have a lasting impact on the game without actually GIVING you anything...

quote: Some other suggestions for WoW that I think would better fit are the Jewish Temple (Dalgetti?) and Bible (forget who suggested that)

Oh yeah! That reminds me, the Gutenberg Bible is a wonder...combines the Bible with the Printing Press, which should either give a 10% science bonus to the discoverer for 10 turns, or maybe remove a Dark Ages 10% science penalty...

Venger

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 06:09 PM I think we should distinguish between WoW and famous discoveries.

Well, you see what CTP2 is doing now with this...

- MKL

No actually, I know very little about CTP2 except I saw screen shots...

Venger -

I didn't say a WoW is something you can photograph. I just meant that the Wright Brother's flight isn't really as historically signifigant as The UN. And the Great Wall's lack of use is represented in the game, when Metallurgy makes it OBSOLETE.
The Colossus was of major improtance in history because it gave Romans a symbol of power, brought "tourism", which increased trade. It was quite a magnificant structure when built, unique among the world. Now you can see 67 foot statues anywhere. But think about the time period and you'll see it's signifigance over W.Brother's.

I was reading your post about enabling wonders, and I think I've found a solution. But only if I can get some support for it...

First to discover Flight gets a message about the Wright brothers (or some random name maybe) flying the first airplane at some village in your civ. Than you get the affects of it as if it was an "enabling wonder". This would be repeated with other things that have an "enabling wonder" that could tie in with it.

Example: First to discover Monothiesm + Printing press (or equivalent tech) gets Bible?

First to discover Monothiesm gets Great Temple.


I was simply making a point about the Pyramids. I think they should have a more religious impact. That's all.

Ok, suggestions?


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Youngsun]

quote: The Great Wall hasn't kept anyone out of China in hundreds of years, despite it's everpresence.

From the very early built Great Wall, the purpose of it was not preventing nor protecting China from major nomad invasion such as Mongol or Manchu invasions but only smaller raids. China built it for its active nomad control policy along with its "divide and rule" strategy and the purpose had been served for a long time which makes its presence quite rewarding. First of all, Fort,tower and gate garrisons were supported by local towns' farm products and these local inhabitants would not dare to live these hostile front areas unless the Wall protected their daily life from nomad raids(not invasion which is quite rare compared to raids).
It also served as outposts to support major military campaignes against the barbarians and China actually did these more than the stppemen invading China(Early Han and Ming are good example)which makes another offensive purpose of the Wall well explained.
and don't forget it is only man-made object visible from the orbit

[MidKnight Lament]

From this article:

http://pc.ign.com/previews/14118.html

quote: "The team has also added Feats of Wonder, a lower scale version of the standard wonder that give the player a small bonus for a set amount of time. For example, the first player to sail around the world gets a water movement bonus for a few rounds."

- MKL
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited May 16, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 05-16-2000 08:10 AM From the very early built Great Wall, the purpose of it was not preventing nor protecting China from major nomad invasion such as Mongol or Manchu invasions but only smaller raids. China built it for its active nomad control policy along with its "divide and rule" strategy and the purpose had been served for a long time which makes its presence quite rewarding. First of all, Fort,tower and gate garrisons were supported by local towns' farm products and these local inhabitants would not dare to live these hostile front areas unless the Wall protected their daily life from nomad raids(not invasion which is quite rare compared to raids). It also served as outposts to support major military campaignes against the barbarians and China actually did these more than the stppemen invading China(Early Han and Ming are good example)which makes another offensive purpose of the Wall well explained. and don't forget it is only man-made object visible from the orbit

Well, your knowledge of the Wall clearly superscedes mine. So, I'm not gonna even TRY to argue against your points...

As to seen from space - indeed. I also like the way the game handles it - free City Walls until cannon. It's one of the most logical, best handled wonders.

Venger

[Az]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 05-16-2000 08:10 AM From the very early built Great Wall, the purpose of it was not preventing nor protecting China from major nomad invasion such as Mongol or Manchu invasions but only smaller raids.

Well that's kinda obvious .
Imagine yourself manning this huge wall with proffesional Soldiers .... how could you support them ? in Ancient production conditions . ( Venger : even lower than communism . hehehe. )

[MidKnight Lament]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 05-16-2000 08:10 AM and don't forget it is only man-made object visible from the orbit

Isn't that a popularly misundertood fallacy? Or was that what you were joking about with the wink?

The wall may be long, but it's too thin to be seen from the moon.

- MKL

[Youngsun]

Not from the moon MKL from the orbit of the Earth! how come you say things I never mentioned before?

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited May 17, 2000).]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-16-2000 10:35 PM I also like the way the game handles it - free City Walls until cannon. It's one of the most logical, best handled wonders.

I posted this on the "??PaxX..." thread started by Christatine. I feel that the GW is the most Illogically handled wonder in the game. And here's why...

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-16-2000 05:59 PM Also, why should you be forced to make peace? I don't like this idea at all, no nation should ever be forced to make peace except for when the Senate overrules you (Republic, Democracy). IMHO the Great wall was not understood to well because it makes all nations sign a peace treaty with you when you ask for one. The GW was really made to protect Northern China against raids from nomadic barbarians. I think the GW should keep all barbarians out of your civ's borders and make a citizen in every city happy or something. It's purpose in Civ 1/2 is inaccurate. Somone spoke of this in another thread as well. Also, UN. Why does that make you sign a peace treaty? There should always be the option to refuse a peace treaty. That's just my opinion. Instead, why not make other civ's view of you go up (comparable to Eiffel Tower) along with giving you a diplomatic tie to every nation and maybe giving you knowledge of every civ's map? Not the whole map, but just everyone's world view put together, which may or may not be the entire map.

I realize a little of that was not related to the GW, but it shows my point. Love to see ideas on both this thread and the other...

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 17, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-17-2000 04:04 PM I realize a little of that was not related to the GW, but it shows my point. Love to see ideas on both this thread and the other...

You don't like the peace treaty aspect of the wonder - and I can't blame you. But you can STILL declare war. How many people are stuck in Democracy when metallurgy rolls around? Monarchy can still declare war, at the expense of some reputation. I find the other aspects as far as expiration, defense against barbarians, city walls, etc. to be pretty darned good, and at least fit, unlike wonders like Pyramids...

Venger

[MidKnight Lament]

No one's interested in this Feats of Wonder thing?

Youngsun - I didn't mean to imply that you said "moon" rather than "orbit", and I'm sorry if it came out that way. I thought that might have been the important distinction, but a lot of people are under the false impression that it can be seen from the moon.

- MKL

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-17-2000 07:03 PM You don't like the peace treaty aspect of the wonder - and I can't blame you. But you can STILL declare war. How many people are stuck in Democracy when metallurgy rolls around? Monarchy can still declare war, at the expense of some reputation. I find the other aspects as far as expiration, defense against barbarians, city walls, etc. to be pretty darned good, and at least fit, unlike wonders like Pyramids...Venger

Yah I know, but why should you have to lose reputation because of it. You said Democracy - but what about Republic. I get that before Metallurgy. And how does the Great wall add a city walls to each city in your civ? It didn't do anything like that for China. It did for the tiny villages on the outskirts. But Beijing, Shanghai, Canton - Hell no. That's my gripe with the wonder. I think there was something in Civ 2 about defense against barbarians, but I think that should be the main reason for it. Maybe added bonus for units in a fortress as well. Any other suggestions?



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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Youngsun]

quote: I didn't mean to imply that you said "moon" rather than "orbit", and I'm sorry if it came out that way. I thought that might have been the important distinction, but a lot of people are under the false impression that it can be seen from the moon.

It's alright MKL and if someone get wrong impression, that's their fault since the wording has been quite clear "the orbit".