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Old April 12, 2000, 04:15   #31
raingoon
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Great research, Charles III -- it's interesting that many southern whites apparently harbored irrational fears of enslavement by the north. SOunds like guilt...

Well, maybe in the end the best solution is to assume slavery in the beginning of the game. And after the discovery of Emancipation those who declare it receive some social bonus with a production penalty.

Also, declaring Emancipation might mean that in a democracy the senate may reject trade agreements with a "slave state" on ethical grounds, much the way senate doves currently make peace against your will in Civ 2.

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Old April 12, 2000, 05:21   #32
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A little idea:

Early : Slavery is the norm
Renasance : Abolition is on the rise (as an advance)
Modern : Slavery is an atrocity

A lot of exellent ideas have been posted, so all I have done is give a little idea of a model... I think atrocity in the modern age could be interesting. Not like in CTP where everyone is freed automatically, but a civilization will be warned by a central institution (UN?). It would not become atrocity until the UN (which could work similar to the Planetary Counsel in SMAC), but it might compromise your reputation before that.

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Old April 12, 2000, 09:35   #33
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First of all, sorry for my previus post, I'm really in a bad mood.

Just a friendly reply to Steve, on the same line of the IMO very good post of Gord.

Steve, don't be blinded by the false concept of "edutainment" vs. "entertaining" game.
Every game and toy have some kind of "education" effect. Animals learn playing (learn to follow and catch a pray, learn to escape, learn to find food...).
They also learn "social" rules, as human children often do. Often some "simulation" is the name of the game.

Of course an adult can (or should ) understand the difference between killing someone on a Quake game or in real life, but that doesn't mean we can't learn something anyway. Any proper game or toy must contain an opportunity to learn something.

Learning is a big part of entertainment, if someone is not forcing you to learn something you don't care nor understand (and that's often the weak point of "edutainment" software).
Or at least learning something can add a lot of taste.

Right, some simulations are too hard to enjoy (think about very realistic car races or flight simulations), but probably they are trying to bite more than a common player can chew.

As in my previus post, I don't learn about WWI playing "Wings", still I understand much more about some facets of war than from some arid history books.

In CIV series you can learn about consequence of actions, the need of properly balance development, the role of a war (understanding, in a superficial way, why so often a country chose to fight a war instead of develop itself peacefully).

On CIV III we should learn more IMHO about effects of religions, diseases, enhanced diplomacy and trades and, why not, slavery and atrocities.

Good news Steve, you pay for a product but in fact you got two
(shhh, don't tell to EA/Firaxis or they will charge 100$ every box!)

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Old April 12, 2000, 14:32   #34
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I don't like the slaver-unit idea. Slavary should be in but in a much more abstract level. This should be controlled in a special window where u have all the legislation for your society. And Slaver civ will have some advantages and some disadvantages. The advantage is more labor and less cost for labor (Building improvements are cheaper). The disadvantage is more need of police, less science, more riots and a probability of slaves escaping to your enemys.
I don't think that slavery in itself should be more difficult to maintain with increasing techs, i'd rather see the benefits of slavery getting smaller and the disadvantages getting bigger. In the biginning people enslaved their own people. Later they enslaved people from other civs and finally they enslaved people from other races. I'm sure that if we would meet another kind of intelligent lifeform and if we could we would probably enslave them and after a few hundred years we would give this aliens their freedom back.

The control for slavery could include this:

- Slavery allowed? - Y/N
- What kinds of slavery? - Serfdom/slavery
- How to become a slave? - Crime/indebted/POW/Ethnic background/Religion/Nationality/Born slave
- How well are slaves treated? - 1 to 10 (1 is bad 10 is very good)

If slaves are not in...how can u get in a war to stop slavery (and get bigger)?? War and slavery are both awful things in human history but nevertheless they have shaped our world to become what it is today.
Personally i think it would be fun in playing a game where you have to defend your people from the 'evil and barbarian' neighbours.
And why not be able to build concentration camps too? I mean. They only have one advantage and alot of disadvantages. The advantage is that you get rid of alot of people (That may have caused you problem later or to appease other people). the disadvantage is all the riots and all the international sanctions that this may cause. I want a game where u can do anything u want, be cruel or nice, but u have to take the consequenses.

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Old April 13, 2000, 00:06   #35
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Adm: Good points. It is true that all computer games are learning tools to some extent. I think one of the main reason I play strategy games on a regular is to keep my analytical thought process sharp, and Civ2 and Civ3 will continue to do that.

My reaction was perhaps focused the modeling of civilization growth and especially warfare. I just don't think a non-scenario Civ2 game models warfare very well - when compared to the number of Talonsoft wargames that I play. There I'm comparing simulation vs. strategy games, which is probably not fair. Regarding civilization growth, the fact that you can take any named civilization, keep it supreme for 6000 years, build wonders and then build a spaceship to reach AC can only be viewed as an abstract model at best. Ideas like the Rise and Fall of civilizations can perhaps make Civ3 less abstract, but IMO, I don't view Civ2 as a historical simulator in any way, nor would I want to. This does not in any way prevent from adding historical realism to Civ3, which I will gladly offer my suggestions and opinions.
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Old April 13, 2000, 18:23   #36
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Stuff2, I agree with you but I think most people won't. I think most people won't wanna see death camps.

Persnally I would not mind having the option to use some thing like it in the game. I personally don't see a usage of it in jenocide like in previous wars. Jews didn't have a country in WWII and the Armenians also didn't have a country in WWI. And in civ once a nation doesn't has a country it's considered obsolete for good. so, then genocide is counquering a whole nation but we all did that in the previous civ games.

And I know I did kill conquered population by starving cities to decrease population so the would stop revolting. Building a camp in a city would make the job easier but it will be considered an atrocity.

Extermination of people and nations was always a part of history. Slavery also was. No reason not to include it.

But, if you would suggest 100 years ago to make slavery a game, it would't have been pretty. Then slavery was a very close to heart topic. how would a slave feel if you would suggested him a game with an option to have slaves? he'd kick your ass.

Now slavery can be included. death camps can not.

Early games included only option to play good guys. I'm tired of it. Also in movies, good guys win. they suck ass. I enjoy playing Dungeon Keeper II if anyone is familiar. Years ago this game would cause outrage.

Back to topic. I actually have a 'take no prisoners' attitude.I don't like having small wars and many wars. I try to have as many wars as there are opposing nations. Each war has the purpose of destroying completely an opposing nation.

I think we all claim to be very nice but when playing civ we often do horrible atricities. I believe nothing will ever stop atrocities in the real world. not to say civ = real world, but people always were and will be agressive and not nice.

Bottom line:
We might as well include slavery and death camps. But death camps and other subjects that are very painfull can't be included. not yet.
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Old April 13, 2000, 18:31   #37
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oh, I just remembered: spying, which is filling many threads here is not legal. that's right. and war is immoral. yeah. . But that won't keep me from conquering the world!!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!!! Seriously, for real. I have an awfully good plan.
-Brain?
-What, Pinky?
-What is awfull?
-It means huge and terrible.
-Naaaarf... Poit!
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Old April 13, 2000, 21:18   #38
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Tee he he! It's been far too long since I've seen Pinky and the Brain.

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Old April 14, 2000, 18:09   #39
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Just one short general remark:

I think this discussion about leaving out slavery because it is not 'nice' is the summit of hypocricy! As I pointed out in another post, slavery and trade in humans/slave-running continue to the present day, though often those practices are called differently. And especially the guilty will set great store by using other names for this same practice.

For the hypocrits I have the following suggestions: Lets banish war, famine, barbarians, nuclear weapons, plague, revolutions, treachery, espionage, disasters, religious strife, civil war, fascism, dictators, economic exploitation, conquests, revolts, martial law, secret police etc.; it will make a most exciting game!
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Old April 15, 2000, 00:01   #40
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The CTP experience was a bad one because these unconventional units ended up being like so many mosquitoes!

Here you are, sitting around hoping to build an empire and negotiate epic truces with other civs. The bzzzzzt! a slaver. Bzzzzzzt! a lawyer. It ended up being one more thing to worry about.

I like aspects of espionage. Slavers are okay if they are part of a military force, and not free agents running around slowing down the game.

CTP had too many unconventional units. Nobody seemed to care about borders, either.
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Old April 15, 2000, 20:36   #41
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Ooooooooooooooooh... that reminds me,
I always wanted secret police to be implemented in the game. Since I was born and raised in the USSR until the age of 6, I have a special attitude towards secret police . Not to mention my great grandparent was captured by bolshevik secret police, accused of crimes he did not commit and murdered by it. Except martial law, I see nothing even clsoe to that in civ. How can we play the cold war scenarios and not have secret police??

Is it a worthy idea? Should I start a new thread?
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Old April 15, 2000, 22:43   #42
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You can if you like. Here's some thoughts to get you started anyway.

What is their purpose? What actions can they perform? Do they operate both within your empire and outside of it? How much control do you have over them? What choices do they offer a player? Are there pluses and minuses to using them? Do they require special forms of government?

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Old April 16, 2000, 19:55   #43
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Well, I was kinda hoping someone else would come up with answers to those questions .
I'm lazy and I don't have much spare time to sit and write. I'll try.

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Old April 16, 2000, 21:08   #44
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I'll copy them into the new thread then

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Old April 17, 2000, 11:59   #45
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Without reading the whole thread, my two cents.

There's no reason NOT to include slavery, the whole bit about "my culture went through slavery less than 2 centuries ago". . umm, so what? That's irrelevant. You never had shackles on you did you? ANYONE you know? Thought not. Not to be insensitive, but. . hey, get real. Second, on this comment.
quote:

I say let there be slavery in Civ III but provide plenty of means to oppose it.


Slavery shouldn't be made into a political issue in the game either. That's one of the things i didn't like about CTP, it made environmental issues, economic issues, etc, etc part of the gameplay, like CTP was pushing an agenda. "egalitarianism, good. environuts (to an extreme) good. capitalism bad" Not that other games/shows/movies/etc don't do it either, but still. . it's a game. The purpose for ANYTHING being in the game is to have fun, not to have the designers pet politics preached at me, whether they're right or not.
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Old April 19, 2000, 00:47   #46
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How about the voluntary slavery we all have, serving the masters of Apolyton!

They are hard masters, too. They demand the best of our ideas and resources.
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Old May 8, 2000, 20:36   #47
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First time to the board, let alone in posting here, so please grant me some leeway.


As many already have pointed out, slavery was integral in many a civilization. Morally, almost everyone alive agrees it is wrong. Economically, it had it benefits at the times -- else it wouldn't have been used. After all, why employ a practice that is counterproductive? So, for slavery to accurately be represented in the game, a civilization should reach a point where it is no longer beneficial to practice slavery. After all, once the industrial revolution came and passed, was there really that much demand for manual labor in the fields? Once a society reaches that level of advancement, it would have a lower level of productivity if it continued to use slaves -- after all, they would be valuable as free citizens who could generate wealth/scientific advancements through their brains, not muscles. So, by continuing to practice slavery would be penalty enough for the civilization that continues to employ it long after it’s been rendered obsolete.


Morally and socially, though, slavery has a much more profound impact. We in the United States are still dealing with its legacy today. So how do we program those social ramifications it into the game?


Considering that almost all societies used slaves at one point or another in their past, it would be stupid for the designers to program the game to punish every civilization that used slaves. That said, slavery should be an option for every form of government in the game -- at least initially. And it should be an aspect of government that does carry outrageous penalties. After all, some of the cultures that practiced slavery have done pretty well for themselves in the real world.


But societies that abandon slavery relatively late in the game would be penalized by lingering population discount for X number of years for every year that slavery is used after the 50 percent mark. Say for every year after the breakthrough point, a civilization would suffer negative happiness rates of 3 for 25 years. I’d also recommend that only cities that were founded (or conquered) prior to the date in which the penalized civilization enacted abolition.


For this to work, Emancipation Proclamation would have to be scrapped as a wonder and instead, civilizations could research amendments to governments (i.e. women's right to vote, abolition, etc.) as scientific advances. Granted, they aren't true scientific advances, but they are philosophical and moral advances and, thought of in that vein, would fit in the category as social science advancements.
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Old May 8, 2000, 20:52   #48
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Welcome to Apolyton, and well spoken. You did a pretty good job of summarising the thread actually. The only thing you missed, imho, is that civilizations shouldn't be forced to use slavery to keep up with the rest of the bunch. It should be an inviting option, but you should be able to do without it.

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Old May 8, 2000, 21:44   #49
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Ok here's my POV on subject

Slavery was an intregal part of many societies and was all the way to the industrial revolution when slaves importance to industry fell dramamtically. Slaves didn't go away some just turned into POWs who happened to be captured and were forced to do things slaves would do anyway. Japan had slaves out of POWs just like Rome. I think slavery is morally wrong as do most people but you have to think of this, the times, something taboo today doesn't mean it was taboo then also. American and European standards of divorce, adultery, greed would disgust many of the previous American and European societies but it society doesn't enforce such dogmas as harshly now. The whole hating your slaves incident seems to be very isolated to the United States and shouldn't be taken as the view of slavery as a whole. Many slaves in ancient societies were respected and close friends to the masters family most specifically slaves from Greece in Rome who taught the children. Slavery was mainly POWs and populations who just pissed the conquerors off, ie Jerusalem. I would hate such wounds and taboos about slavery in the United States to affect the feeling and historic view of the game. CTP slavery was abstract and IMHO if reworked a little could prove very viable. Heres how I think the game should work.

Non slave states
Slavery would be economic and after someone creates Emancipation Proclomation would hurt societies that don't lower the number of slaves in their empire before and the unhappy citizens(the exslaves) could be more prone to riot.
1. Trade
Trade needs to be fixed and with this I think it will be realistic, non slave countries should be manufactures, slave countries raw producers. Raw materials need to be the main bulk of a slave states trade because
1. Citizens that have slaves should be less inclined to work themselves I mean think of this, instead of going to school yourself and learning to be an artisan get some slaves and plant corn and ship it off to Fiji for them to eat. While you might say well most people will want to work I think most average people would rather be the lazy master of an estate.
2. Raw materials are hard to gather, mining is hard, picking cotton, corn, wheat is hard. Most people don't want to do this. Bottom line if you have slaves and a farm your gonna put your slaves to work.

1. The non slave state isn't going to mine alot of raw materials and should consentrate on manufacturing and mining of precious things, oysters, gold, gems. Manufacturing could be buy wood, create funiture, sell furniture and buy food. If anyone has played Pharaoh there is 1 mission with very very very few resources but you can succeed very well(its the only way to succeed) by importing raw materials and selling finished goods. Think cotton trade early 1800s United States still slave state produced alot of cotton sold it to England and France who in turn sold it to everyone else willing to buy and bought other things like extra wood and food.
2. say a city on like the Strait of Gibraltor(sp) should be able to tax traders coming through to gain money(this would cost no money to the empire who the ships belong, its a game lets say the money comes from the traders) example of game
England needs lots of wheat and egypt has it, but italy is at war with england and controls all land routes from england to egypt unless you want to go all the way around asia minor and up through russia and over. The one way out is ocean and the small nation of monoco protected by carthage who controls spain lets monoco be on the strait. Monoco has no resources and there is enough manufacturing so is the city gonna starve(its on a straight not fertile pasture) well they can tax the traders coming through to pass so they make lots of money off the war feed their people and when the war is over trade is still lucrative because england can't sustain its population at the end of the 19th century and needs to trade with egypt again but with large ocean liners its more efficent to trade by water. Just so you know Egypt was slave, England was not this is early 1800s before industrial revolution.

Slaves would be brought home from won battles on land. Slave routes could be seen by emancipaters and intercepted once by manually sending a unit there then it would be on a screen for that route. After say 2 years the slavers would realize some slaves are being stolen and freed so they could
a. Use slave hunters to capture emancipators on routes(Im into routes manually moving is a pain)
b. Add slave hunter escorts which would make it harder for them to emancipated.
Emancipators could be cheap to build and have say a 50% chance of escape to return in 1 year to the route and free slaves.

A trade screen could make trade easier, no more camels running all over the place and I want supply and demand.

Slavery needs to be tied in heavily with POWs not razing a city and taking home 50000 slaves because of new trade, we need polarized resources people!

I know this post turned into trade but I don't care.

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Old May 8, 2000, 22:02   #50
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quote:

Originally posted by MidKnight Lament on 05-08-2000 08:52 PM
Welcome to Apolyton, and well spoken. You did a pretty good job of summarising the thread actually. The only thing you missed, imho, is that civilizations shouldn't be forced to use slavery to keep up with the rest of the bunch. It should be an inviting option, but you should be able to do without it.

- MKL


Thanks for the welcome, MKL.

You're right, societies shouldn't be forced to use slavery, but I think it early civilizations should be able to use it. Personally, I never used slaves in my CPT games (partly for moral reasons but also I didn't need them when they would have been most useful), but I certainly had the opporunity to capture them if I wanted. Every civilization should (this is a gameplay statement, not a moral one, folks) be capable of slavery. If it chooses to pursue it or not is the leader's choice.
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Old May 9, 2000, 13:20   #51
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quote:

Originally posted by Dalgetti on 05-09-2000 12:14 PM
Slavery ? a norm of a middle-class civilan all over the civilized Old World during the ancient times...[snip, snip] ...but still I dont c how can a slaver(tm) enter a city with a garrison inside , and not being stopped during a slave raid !


Very good point. I could see the slaver sneak a person or two out of the city, but not enough to either hurt the city or help his own.


Still, I like having slavery as an element of gameplay. It makes me feel a little more righetous when I slaughter all the innocent people living next door.


Perhaps the slaver should be dropped from the game. Instead, certain military units could be given the ability to capture barbarians or another society's units (outside of cities) and enslave them.
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Old May 10, 2000, 00:14   #52
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Sirotnikov: I m from there too . I came to Israel at the age of 5 .

Now about the thread topic : I think that slavery was a part of human history all over the time . And so was genocide . I don't think that making both of them part of gameplay should lessen the effect of the horror in these deeds . but I must admit , I wouldn't like to see Death Camps in civ 3 . many of the people that survived the horror are still alive . but Genocide ? that must be . coz ... that existed almost always .

Slavery ? a norm of a middle-class civilan all over the civilized Old World during the ancient times . btw : did anybody notice :
Roman's leader behavior : peaceful , or something like that . that didn't stop the Romans of owning slaves . but still I dont c how can a slaver(tm) enter a city with a garrison inside , and not being stopped during a slave raid ! .... but that only my opinion again.

P.S.Author's signature is a way-of-gameplay description only . No Harming No ones feelings is not intended in any way . the Author doesn't see Slavery as a legitimate action . The Slaver(tm) is a registed trademark of Activision ..........


So is the Lawyer(tm).......

P.P.S. does any1 c my point ?

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Old May 12, 2000, 15:37   #53
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no . even better : include a slaver in a stack gives the whole stack an option to make a slave raid . neither the slaver , neither the army can take slaves by it own .
how about that ?

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Old May 19, 2000, 22:45   #54
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Civ is not meant to be historically accurate.

If it were, then there wouldn't be an American Civ until very near the end. There wouldn't be an English Civ until a bit later. In the beginning, all you can have are the Chinese, Indians, Greeks, and some others.

In Civ, you learn to be a warmonger. Build a huge army and crush your neighbor. I don't think this is what you are supposed to learn.

So whether any feature should go in the game depends on whether it adds to the gameplay.
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Old May 19, 2000, 22:59   #55
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I wouldn't mind seeing it in the game, if it's not I'm not going to whine. I think it would add to gameplay because of it's importantness in history. Any route you take in history, with an American civ or not you will have slavery because of its economic importance for hundreds of years. I have Chinese ancestors who were slaves to other Chinese and have been put through evil things but I don't really take it to heart. To leave it out because of political correctness would be a mistake but that is up to Firaxis.

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Old May 20, 2000, 05:14   #56
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oops sorry for double post

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Old May 20, 2000, 05:16   #57
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I think as much history as they can include in the game is a good thing. You can't include some things and exclude others. It's like telling part of the truth and not the whole truth.

"Yes i did pay the man....(with money i stole)."

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