cost of tech stealing exhorbitant; a bug?

Rusty Nail · December 6, 2001, 08:20

This may have been noted by others, but if so I haven't seen it. I have given up even looking at espionage as the costs are so high — a single operation often being greater than any civilization's treasury, including mine. This cannot have been Firaxis' intention. For example, you can pay 420 gold for a "low probability" chance of stealing a tech without repurcussions, when you can buy the same tech for about 200 from the same civ. This is ridiculous. What is the meaning? The idea of stealing should be the chance that you can get it cheaper when you are in a hole, even if risking a war. Does anybody actually use this option? By the time you are rich enough to use it, you don't need it. Havé I missed something?

Expatriate · December 6, 2001, 08:29

I think that in general the embassy and espionage options are very expensive and the chance of success is just too low to justify those prices. The only thing I ever use espionage for is to have an agent with each of my opponents to be able to see how many units they have. Thats a onetime investment for each foreign civ and will keep working the rest of the game.

Kolyana · December 6, 2001, 08:39

After trying in vein to actually make Espionage worthwhile, I now *NEVER* use the feature at all.

Just placing a spy has such a low chance of success and costs so much, that it typically isn't worth me bothering with.

And what do I get if I strike lucky? Incredibly high costs and even lower chances of success to do things I can easily get through negotiation.

No, Espionage really does suck.

dweez · December 6, 2001, 10:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Kolyana
After trying in vein to actually make Espionage worthwhile, I now *NEVER* use the feature at all.

Just placing a spy has such a low chance of success and costs so much, that it typically isn't worth me bothering with.

And what do I get if I strike lucky? Incredibly high costs and even lower chances of success to do things I can easily get through negotiation.

No, Espionage really does suck.

I use it for one thing that's least expensive: investigate city. When AIs start building wonders, hit F7 to see which city they are building it in, then use "investigate city" to see how long it will tkae them. Other than that I totally agree - espionage sucks.

Aurochs · December 6, 2001, 10:56

Heh. Yeah. I can see it now...

Finance Minister: "Congratulations, we're the richest empire on the planet, with over 400 gold!"

Covert Ops Minister: "How about we spend some of that money to spy on the enemy? It'll only cost us 30,000 gold!"

Finance Minister: "Ermm...that's several times the combined wealth the entire civilized world."

Covert Ops Minister: "Yeah, and for that low low price, there's only a moderate risk of pissing off a large alliance and being destroyed. C'mon, lets do it!"

Emperor: [pointing to Minister of Covert Ops] "Off with his head! Get me a replacement with at least the IQ of a dung beetle!"

The spies are useful for seeing the enemies' total armies, and occasionally to investigate small cities, but the rest of the options seem to be just a tease.

Capt Dizle · December 6, 2001, 11:02

Oh gee yeah, I think its unfair that we can't rush wonders when Firaxis obvisously rushed the game (which is by the way no wonder).

The whole spy business is a good example of what happens when you throw a product together. Totally lame.

lockstep · December 6, 2001, 13:24

Quote:

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I think its unfair that we can't rush wonders when Firaxis obvisously rushed the game (which is by the way no wonder).

(especially for the bracket term)

smellymummy · December 6, 2001, 13:48

Odd, I don't remember the AI always being willing to trade techs with me. That's when it is time to use embassies/spies and steal a tech. In the early game chances to succesfully steal seem to be in the players odds, but that might just be a VS civ type bonus.

I also use spies to investigate cities, not only for wonder recon, but during war.

Planting a spy is a great way to gauge your enemies total troop force, and getting theire military plans is fantastic!

And sabotage? I once sabotaged a wonder. Was it ever so damn expensive. Didn't matter though, under communism money goes way up real fast.

That's another thing, communism has the best spies. You can see the different levels of experience, and yes, change them, in the editor. I'm perfectly happy with how they are. I'll admit it though, spying seemed almost hopeless the first few games, expect for stealing techs. After a while though I got used to it, and I use spies and spy missions real often.

The only gripe I have is when you attempt to reveal an enemy mole, and you fail. The repercussions are just plain dumb! It's not like you sent your spy in the enemy territory (the manual even says your spy comes back), unless the spy sabotages a local embassy, or messes up around foreign officials....

barefootbadass · December 6, 2001, 13:53

I agree, I'd much rather pay 500 or so gold in diplomacy than pay 1300 to try to steal it with a high chance of failure and resultant war. It should cost less to try to steal than trade(even at the highest cost with best chance of success) and the main penalty should be war and a rep. hit.

Investigate city is the only useful thing you can do with the embassy so far IMO. I seriously think this is the biggest botch they had making this game because it doesn't seem like something that would be hard to make work and its soooo obvious that its useless with the current prices. CEO or whoever is responsible of Infogrames should be whipped, beaten, and fired for making firaxis rush this thing.

barefootbadass · December 6, 2001, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by smellymummy

under communism money goes way up real fast.

I haven't tried communism yet. Is this because of the flat corruption or something else?

Ralf · December 6, 2001, 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Kolyana
After trying in vein to actually make Espionage worthwhile, I now *NEVER* use the feature at all.

I agree. In Civ-2, espionage was too easy. In Civ-3; espionage is - well, not "too hard" - that would be the wrong word for it. More to the point; its simply not very wise and intelligent to spend so much money for so comparibly little in return. Often an insecure return, on top of that.

Consider for example this more attractive and foreign tech-aquirement method instead:

Quite often I manage to trade one attractive luxury-export in return for a foreign tech import, with a below 100 gold lumpsum thrown in, in order to smooth out the deal. Yes, you perhaps cannot grab really important techs this way - but nevertheless. You dont risk anything.

Why would I then spend unproportionally amounts of very hard-earned money on "stealing techs"? Or execute some of the other super-expensive spy-actions, for that matter?

Xentropy · December 7, 2001, 01:29

Saddest part, too, is that investigate city is a function of the embassy, not a spy, so you don't even need to place a spy to get the most advantageous ability. Who *doesn't* reload after an investigation? It's basically free. Now in MP it wouldn't be, and would be more interesting. Can't wait for that :>

Venger · December 7, 2001, 02:29

Ralf is right on - in Civ2, the Spy and espionage options were WAY too powerful and easy. I went so far as to remove the option for incite revolt from the options a human player has (thought couldn't make the AI not do it). I reduced moves of diplomat and Spy by one and removed their Ignore ZOC. They STILL were to strong, stealing techs was WAY too easy...

Now, espionage is predominantly pointless. Way too expensive - and the interface is just bass ackwards.

Somewhere there is a useful middle ground, but I get the impression that espionage is just a really overlooked area that likely isnt going to be revisited...

Venger