Vel's Strategy Thread - Part Three

[LordLynch64]

Ahmen Brother, I too love to win via the puppet strings. There's nothing like dancing the fine line of Support of a nation or domination of that nation.

I Love It.

[eMarkM]

Thoughts on the effects of the new 40 (instead of 32) turn tech cap?

I thought at first we'd see 40 turns only on, say, 10-40% science in first several turns w/ 32 turns for 50-100%. This as opposed to before w/ everything taking 32 turns and everyone setting science to 10% to get $ to buy tech. I figured this was changed to discourage setting science too low and give you a choice.

But basically it's the same situation as before, just takes 40 turns no matter what your science is at. So you're still encouraged to set science to 10%, rake in cash, and buy techs. It slowly improves from there of course, but basically it takes even longer to research--at least early. Putting science high on upper levels is still completely pointless. Just bring in the cash and buy them.

e

[Velociryx]

Profoundly important bit from Jeff Morris - Firaxis

If you capture a city that has not generated any culture, you will Raze that city, regardless of its size....

Wow....and something that certainly needs more discussion here on the boards!

The implications are far-reaching, and I personally very much like what it does to stop/delay the rush game and those who had gotten in the habit of following a rival civ's settler/warrior around until they built a new town. Now, all you get is a declaration of war out of the deal.

Pretty cool stuff, but it DOES make very early warfare a bit trickier....you've almost got to go for the capitol of the rival civ first, and "follow it" (ie - if you're looking to acquire more than one city from a target civ, then you must follow the capitol to ensure that the city in question has generated at least some culture. Of course, later in the game, a quick glance at the size of the borders will tell you one way or the other, but in the opening 20-30 moves (yep...that's how early I'm talking ....WAAAAY early conquest!), there's no good way to be sure, 'cept for gunning for the capitol....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Post-Lunch time ramble

Was thinking on the drive to Arby's today, and what it comes down to is this:

The mechanics of beating the game remain essentially unchanged from Civ1. If you want to beat the game militarily....use one or more variants of the despotic rush and clobber 'em. It works. It's effective, but after doing it a time or two it just kinna leaves you cold, you know? I mean....essentially it's the same thing over and over again. Rush, kill civ a....rush again, kill civ b....repeat x times, where x is the number of other civs in the game. End. ::stifles a yawn:: No thanks....

One thing that the rush-crowd has absolutely right though, is that in the end, it's all about controlling....dominating the world.

Blessedly, there are LOTS more interesting ways of going about that than rushing yourself to victory lane.

In my mind, military victory and/or dominance of the globe is the easiest, and also most linear path to victory. Because it IS the most linear, it's also the most effective. It reduces the game to it's barest elements and relies on superior human execution of the complex interactions that combat creates. In short, it is the simplest, surest course to victory.

Again (and please remember that all of this is just my own idle speculation on the subject), those who choose to play the game in this manner are missing out on about 3/4 of the total gaming eperience.

Besides, IMO there are better, more effective, and certainly more interesting methods of controlling the world.....

The game is all about diplomacy in one form or another. Trade is a diplomatic tool. As is force of arms. MPP's and other formalized diplomatic maneuverings are, obviously part of the package, and if you're looking for an intense, interesting gaming experience, then you must examine the various victory conditions up close and find out what each involves.

Conquer/Domination: Wipe out all rivals or control 75% of the land. Either way, you're talking about almost constant war. Fight fight fight....rush rush rush. Game. Pretty straightforward. Pretty linear. Easily accomplished, but a somewhat questionable fun-factor.

Diplomatic: Most easily accomplished by playing the Merchant game. Trade with everyone, keep everybody happy, build the UN. Game. Also pretty linear. Some chances for more interesting interactions than the conquest game, since you can selectively NOT trade with certain empires and perhaps bring about the destruction of one or more of your rivals making good use of your market dominance in various categories.

Cultural: VERY linear. Build stuff. Turtle. Wait. Game. Quite possible the most boring of the game types, though you CAN choose to mix it up in world politics to keep things interesting, but your actions or lack thereof will have no bearing on the final win. It's just killing time for you.

Space Race: An actual RACE vs. the other AI's, and on higher levels of difficulty, this one can be a little heart-pounding, since you're never quite sure if some other civ is gonna pull out some mojo on you and sneak in the win. An interesting way to go, with a pretty cool movie that the others are totally lacking.

Histograph: IMO, this can either be the most useless or the most compelling. Most useless if you conquer all but one city of the other civs and just sit there till 2050 boosting your score. That's beyond BLAH! Compelling though, if you play the game all the way out, making vassals, clients, mixing it up with the other nations of the world all game long, preventing your rivals from building the space ship, preventing them from snagging a diplo victory (using diplomatic means and/or force of arms & surgical strikes if necessary), and end the game when it's retirement time on top of the heap. This methodology allows you to assume the role of puppet master, working with your allies to exert a level of control over the planet that's soooo much more intricate and involved than anything ever seen by those who favor beat-down games.

That's where the magic is.....controlling the world indirectly. Building such an Empire, and having such a profound presence on the world stage that you can, by your own actions and interactions with other civs, engineer the build up and breakdown of other empires, all over the world. And learning to do it well enough and with enough savvy that you can end the game in 2050 with ALL victory types enabled, and stop your rivals from ever achieving any of them, ending with yourself listed as the top nation on the planet.....

Now THAT, for me, is compelling game play....

-=Vel=-

PS to Arrian re: Oscillating War: Not necessarily a constant state of war, but, in the early game, when you're running Despotism anyway and suffer no ill effects from a prolonged conflict, rather than fighting an extended war with one civ, fight 3-4 small scale wars with all your neighbors. In practice, it takes about as many resources as the one big war, and slightly more time (mostly, that's the time it takes to locate your army to a different front). Once you've pruned them sufficiently, and grown your Empire to it's optimal size, the next war you fight will probably be one to protect a client state of yours, or to help him grow....

-V.

Anyway....just some random thoughts I wanted to transfer from brain to virtual paper....

[Lawrence of Arabia]

First off, let me just say that paratroopers are my favorite unit in civ3 ever since they patched them. Heres how to use them so that they become your favorites too.

This here is a typical paratrooper assault on a typical civ in either the modern or industrial eras.

A typical civ has resources, and access to salt water.
A typical assault is against a civ which has a land border with yours

(1) Planning

First off, you need to set a goal. What do you want to accomplish? Conventionally, it could be to grab a few cities or resoruces. Unconventionally, it could be to set the whole world alight. The key to this part is to set your goals before hand.

(2) Set the Stage

Lets assume that you want win culturally, but two other civs are against you. So, the first step is to check your diplomacy screen. What is their status among others. Then check the latest intelligence you have with them. How strong are they? Step two is to contact them and have them make a mutual protection pact against another civ, say the Germans. Build up your army, navy and airforce. Build about 5-10 paratroopers. Station the navy just outside the Germans cultural borders. Bring your army to the front, also build fortresses. When your troops need to heal later on, you can bring them into those fortresses which increase their strength. Also make sure you have plenty of roads going towards the front. Build a national guard and station them close to your colonies. Block chokepoints with good defense. As you can see, when you go onto the offensive, you have to watch your back at all times.

(3) Light the fire

Declare war on Germany. The other two civs will also, meaning that they have to stop building cultural buildings. Now, move in your Paratroopers by paradrop. Target road junctions, and especially resources. Pillage, and cut Germanys infrastructre. Your navy should move in and shell the cities. Your airforce should bomb. And your army should swarm over the borders. Since your paratroopers are relativly weak. the point is to get to them and relieve them as fast as possible. Hopefully, Germany will have attacked the other two culture civs and have taken a few of their ciites. After you have crippled Germany, then ask for peace. your two 'allies' will continue fighting and hopefuly losing so that you can win.

[Capt Dizle]

Vel,

I love you man....but...

I am deeply disturbed by this newly patched in feature of autorazed cities.

I do not like the fact that we are being forced to play Civ 3 in a civilized way.

Its boring playing puppetmaster when you would rather be feeding tossing kittens into your Craftsman 8.5 horsepower chipper shredder.

Regards...

jt

[mlepinski]

Great discussions on diplomacy and manipulation today. I think Oscillating War is a bit extreme, but it seems like a novel way to ensure that you dominate your continent.

I fully realized the importance of early game war last night during an absolutely horrible game with the English. I had never played with the English before and so I set it on Regent. I figured that since I was on Regent I didn't need an early war and that I could just play a game of aggressive peaceful expansion. I cranked out settlers and because ours was a large continent I was able to secure a large empire between the Zulus to my North and the Chinese to my South. Once the land grab had finished, I started building infrastructure like mad and waited for contact with the other continent.

By the time Ocean squares became crossable, my early libraries and universities had netted me a slim tech lead and a couple of stolen cities due to culture. However, I was in the bad position of having powerful neighbors on both sides and not having any diplomatic clout when negotiating with them. (My start didn't include much in the way of luxeries and so we hadn't traded much). In any case, once coal was discovered and my neighbors didn't have any, it didn't take long for them to gang up me and wasn't nearly powerful enough to survive their combined onslaught.

On an unrelated note: I find that a crucial time of game is when the other big continent is discovered and all of a sudden there are a lot more players in the diplomatic game. Does anyone have any advice for how to handle this period. For instance:
How do you access the positions of the newly found empires?
How do you tell, who's powerful and who's friends with who?
How do you decide who to trade with?
If you're on the technically advanced continent do you trade the new found civs your tech advances or do you try to keep them in the dark?
If you're not on the technically advanced continent, how do you catch up?

Thanks,
- Matt Lepinski :->

[eMarkM]

I personally very much like what it does to stop/delay the rush game

Yeah, me too. Very clever of them. It'll just delay the rushers, but at least you can't immediately use a captured city against the enemy. I always wait for swordsmen to start an early war anyway. Waiting to rush until then should still work as by then most cities should have temples. My current emp w/ patch game I only recall once taking a 2 pop city and having it razed. Every 1 pop was razed.

I do not like the fact that we are being forced to play Civ 3 in a civilized way.

Well, I think they did it because Despot Rush is almost too easy on emp/deity if you get to keep every city. I'm sure you can still rush from the start, just won't be such a cakewalk. You'll have to actually build some more of your own cities.

e

[Velociryx]

Here here! Good stuff indeed re: paratroopers! Outstanding work!

JT: Thanks man, but it's really not soooo bad, the "raze if Culture = 0" thing....after all, most civs will eventually pop a temple in eventually, if for no other reason than to control the population and keep 'em happy....and all the scientific ones go ape over building libraries (I know...cos my catapults sure destroy a bunch of them! LOL). Mostly, it adds a little bit of a delay in...I'm guessing to give the AI a chance to actually build up a bit to maybe survive the human-player's onslaught....delaying the inevitable?

Did a bit more playing this evening, but I'm a bit worn out from a harsh monday, so I think I"m hittin' the hay, but I really like the whole "Oscillating War" approach to keeping your neighbors down....beating them all up more-or-less equally (can't play favorites after all! ) seems to really fix you up for the mid game....overpowering? Perhaps....but it was kinna cool to finish the Pyramids in 2900-something BC!

-=Vel=-

[eMarkM]

Ok, Emperor (post-patch) space ship launch in 1916 and score of 3176. Save game attached. No despot rush, minimal pop rushing. Normal building and expanding. Just using all the great strategy advice from this thread.

Fell behind early as French and Germans each had six cities to my three. A big disadvantage when Iroquois basically got whole southern half of continent. Didn't start my "vassalization" campaign until nearly AD times. Lots of trading, of course, but it was vassalization that got me to tech parity. The key was France and Germany had no iron and my swordmen mowed them down.

Meanwhile the russkies cleaned up their whole continent. So it was down to me, Iroquois and Russia. I thought it would be more of a challenge in industrial/modern times, but Russkies couldn't keep up w/ me in tech. Not even close. There was no space race, no one else even got started! I totally cruised in modern times despite them both ganging up on me at one point. (Oh yeah, Russia thought my army "weak". Take a look at F3 on save game, gimme a break). Russia just hit me w/ wimpy ironclad coastal bombardments and Iroquois couldn't stand against my tanks. Weariness forced me into Communism and I tried to get peace. Took forever for Iroquois to come to the table, had to take 6 of their cities. Besides that though, it was an easy win in the late game.

I'm ready to try Deity.

e

[Gamer at heart]

I like the idea of controlling the whole game via "puppeting". I've got to try that, only the feel the King Maker role, to choose those that will be my pets and those I will kick, to decide wether this civ or this other gets to grow while this one shrinks. I like the concept, even if it sound a little "power freak"

Although I haven't done exactly that, I find that in most of my games, I tend to fight one ancien war, and one in the early Middles Ages. Afterwards, if I was prepared enough (and by now it is quite easy to set realistic objective and devise a plan to aquire them), I'm in the lead and really can't be dislodged. I do not toy with other civs as you say you do, but I still gain enough money from commerce with them to really drain them, even without tech selling.

So what I've tried in my last game is to stay about the same size as the others on purpose. I wanna see what happens in the late industrial when I fight AIs with the same production power as they have. I don't have too much time right now (girlfriend coming back from a 3 months and a half trip to NS on friday, I have stuff to prepare...) so I chose a small map size (first time I played on such a small world). Man, it feels weird !! Anyway, I'm Japanese with Indians, Chinese and English on same continent and Zulus and Persians on other Island. No fighting so far, I'm barely in the lead (by like 10 points) over the English as we start the Middle Ages. Can't wait to see what'll happen.

On another topic, I find it right that we discover the assets of Militaristic civs only now. IMO their bonuses are a lot more practical on the higher levels of play. Heck, 20 shields barracks is a very powerful thing! I'm non fan of Walls, but when I need them, thay are easy to aquire too. But the most important thing, with mostly veteran units, thanks to those barracks, and the fact that promotions are easier to get, there is a much increased chance of getting leader. Leaders are get much more powerful as you increase the level you play in. Anyway, all that to say that I had never played Militaristic civs up to this weekend, and I've played 3 games with since! I love it!

Well, more later, can't wait to ear, er read, your next comments on your Marla something game. BTW where did you get the map?

GaH

[Arrian]

Didymus - No, actually, Bismarck had wine to spare (2 or 3 extras), which was available for trade. He wanted all of what I offered, plus a tech, which I felt was unreasonable of him.

So, I cheerfully built about 50 Modern Armor, put together a few transports and some battleships, and sailed on over to Germany. It's gone now, and I'm exporting wine to Persia and China.

Vel - I really like how you're setting up Germany as a buffer state in your French game. I assume the cities you're giving them would be uselessly corrupt were you to keep them? I don't think that oscillating war is necessarily the best way to dominate the world. "Quicker, easier... more seductive" but not more powerful than the way I'd do it. O.W. will net you early gains, and maybe some leaders (enough of which will make O.W. far more powerful than my style of play, I admit). My way involves a long, slow buildup, but once I'm ready, it will all be over in a blink of history's eye. See the brief game desciption below

Mark - Congrats on your Emperor victory. It has been my experience that, once you get going, you're gonna waste the AI in the modern age. This probably has a lot to do with manipulating the tech/tax slider, along with the AI's tendency to fight Industrial Age wars against itself (many AI civs end up communist while my people are voting on the most desirable color for the spaceship parts). The AI tends to waste time researching communism and such while I'm going for computers (and thus SETI, which further increases my tech lead).

My current game, in which I have just finished butchering the Germans, has been much easier at the end than I thought it would be. My lead in tech EXPLODED toward the end of the industrial age. The Persians got into a war with Germany and the Iroquois nation that has been going on for what seems like forever, and all three ended up going Communist. The Germans had just gotten motorized transport when I rolled over them with Modern Armor. My Spaceship sits on the launchpad, lacking only the Planetary Party Lounge. The Iroquois (German allies/2nd in power on the graph) lack rubber and have some tasty spices and stinky incense which I will be taking control of shortly. Basically, I'm more than double the size of anyone else, coming up on triple. All of my gains have occurred since I got Cavalry (excepting, of course, a couple of culture defections).

I've decided that I don't like the scoring system all that much. It's similar to CIV II, in that it's basically all about size (people/cultural borders). That was fine in CIV II, but CIV III is more complex, adding resources to the mix and such, and I think that should be taken into account. If you are entirely self-sufficient (local access to all strat. and lux. resources), that should be reflected in your score. In this game, that's were the real power is. Actually owning more cities does nothing to increase that power (it will decrease it, as a matter of fact, because those cities will probably produce nothing for you, but plenty for someone else who can buy your resources).

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

eMarkM: Congrats on a great victory! WhoooHOooooo! And, good luck on Deity!

GaH: Marla's Map rocks! I played out a bit more of my French game on it last night....awesome! I'm continuing my experimentation with the puppet master approach, carving out a new Germanic state to serve as a bulwark against the ruskies (so far, I've taken/given to Germany a total of 4 cities (I'm keeping moscow for the moment to use as a rest and resupply point for battered units). Three more, and I'll make peace with the Rus...see if Germany can hold their at that point.

Bullied the Babylonians out of the city of Kish....it's totally useless (right in the MIDDLE of the Sahara, but it did brush up against my borders, so I took the opportunity to bully it from them. They're still showing up as Polite, even after relieving them of a city.....::shrug:: just wanted to see if I could...

All the fighting with Russia has generated yet another GL (my third this game) and I've transported him to my holdings in N. Africa to rush in the FP when I capture Thebes from Egypt (if I ultimately decide to go that route....not sure....it'd be cool and all, but I'm kinna weighing my options. What do you guys think? Egypt? Indo-China? Or...hold out till we get reliable ships to cross to the New World en mass? If so....I can always burn the GL to speed build a project....I'm only 2 turns from researching Astronomy soooo....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Marla's Map can be gotten Here

[Arrian]

Vel,

It's nice to have choices like that to make, huh? I'd advise you to hit Egypt. That way, you get your FP up and running, effectively double your empire's productivity... NOW, rather than much later. Besides, they're closer, and therefore more of a threat.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Arrian...lol...you and I cross-posted again!

I totally agree with you 'bout warfar in more modern times (say cavalry and beyond) is 100% in the hands of the human player, and over before the poor AI knows what hit it.

In truth, I suspect I'll be doing that as well this game....it's just BEGGING to be a conquest-oriented game. However, I find the early use of Oscillating Wars soooo beneficial because of the disproportionate value of a scant handful of early game attack units. That is to say, they don't cost me much to build in terms of time/shields (and, you'll be proud of me, I didn't pop-rush any of them!), but the power they give your empire is all out of proportion to what they actually cost you. (my german attack force consisted of three warriors and an archer - 50 shields worth of production, and for that, I got a GL which allowed me to speed build the pyramids in 2000-something BC, turned the Germans into a docile puppet state of France, and nabbed a nice city in a very productive spot (Berlin).

Adding another 30 shields of production to that (another warrior and another archer), the army turned toward the Romans. Victory there netted me two techs, another nice city, and assured me that my expansion into central and eastern europe would be completely unchecked (I already had a lock on the Iberian peninsula anyway).

Not bad for less than a hundred shields invested....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Just saw your post re: the Egyptian dilemma.....very good point! That was my gut instinct as well....I'm on good terms with the Greeks (who border them, and in fact, have had a standing RoP with both Greece and Germany for much of the game). I think it'd be very easy to form up a coalition against Egypt and take them out of commission just as soon as this business with the Russians is concluded. Even if Germany does not or cannot participate on account of the Russians, I shouldn't need any help at all....it's just another opportunity to bind myself closer to my allies in the region....and, for modern times, it'll perch me like a giant, pink vulture right there next to all those middle eastern oil fields....heh....

-V.

[pchang]

It might be my imagination, but it seems that post patch, the AIs are more willing to fight it out to the end than before. During an early conquest (2500BC or so), it used to only require taking 2 cities from an AI before they would be willing to give you everything for peace. Now, they won't even talk to me until I've taken 3 or 4 cities (1 of them being their capital). This is causing me to cripple at least one of my intended vassals beyond the point of usefulness.

Patch notes also said that culture take overs had been made more easy. In my last game as Babylonians, I did not take over a single city via culture. However, this may have been due to my impatience since I was taking quite a few cities by force of arms.

[Arrian]

"...like a giant, pink vulture..." *shudders* That's enough to give someone nightmares. Perhaps this game should be the basis for a new and improved "Veloci-a-France" over in the stories forum.

I think what you're creating (re: Germany) in your game can be characterized as a "junior partner" as opposed to a vassal or client state. This is an AI empire that is large enough to be useful to you in war. Not really useful, but handy, you know? They can also afford to buy things at good prices. I have a similar case in my game with the Chinese, except that I've never hurt them in any way. The Japanese did that, and then I killed the Japanese,

Here's a question for you though: what do you do (hotshot) in the late industrial age, when you and others are beginning to close in on motorized transport? Do you take them down before they can get Panzers (and thus a golden age) or do you allow them to flourish?

-Arrian

[eMarkM]

Now, they won't even talk to me until I've taken 3 or 4 cities

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I had to take out six modern cities for Iroquois to receive my envoy. IIRC, I had to take out at least 3 from my early vassals as well before they gave in. The vassal was kind of a one shot deal, couldn't play it over and over again because they got too weak from initial beating.

I thought maybe it was just from the difficulty level I was playing at. But maybe it was something included in the patch to slow down vassalization. They've certainly done other things, like culture-less razing, to make the early strategies found on these forums more difficult, so I wouldn't be surprised. If so, definately makes an Occillation Strategy more appropriate.

e

[mlepinski]

A couple notes on culture:

1) Someone mentioned that they had never seen the AI lose a city to another AI civ due to culture. I can assure you that it definately happens. In the industrial era, I was fighting a war with Eqypt to get oil and my Chinese buddies were helping me out. Eqypt was on a continent by themselves. I came in with swarms of infantry and artilery and took the southern half of the Eqyptian Isle (including all their oil) and the Chinese took a couple cities in the North. I stopped the war when weariness started to hurt and leader rushed my palace into a captured Eqyptian city. China built very little culture in the Northern cities they took and it didn't take long after the war ended for those cities to revert to Eqyptian control.

2) Someone had mentioned that taking cities with culture doesn't seem any easier post patch. I'll second that remark. Despite what is said in the readme, I haven't noticed any difference in stealing cities with culture. It would be really nice to know the equation that's used to determine the chance of culturally acquiring a city, but I have no idea how to figure that out.

- Matt Lepinski :->

[Velociryx]

LOL...yeah, the Giant Pink Vulture image was just too good to pass on....heh...spooky stuff!

As to more aggressive AI...I agree! What's more....I mostly like it! True, when you're beating the SNOT out of the AI, they should know when their goose is cooked and just surrender, but they're not pushovers, and they won't just cry uncle at the drop of a hat anymore.

To Arrian: Quite so, on the Germanic state. The game's beginning saw me putting them into the oscillation mulch machine, turning them into a client state in the early game (sold them horses). From there, during the first Ruso-Germanic war when they (all of three cities) were in danger of being overrun by a much larger (15 cities) Russia, I made the decision to bolster Germany specifically to let them deal with the Rus for me. So....I happily joined them in the fray against the Russians, and bulked them up with a couple of cash and tech.

After fighting the Rus to a standstill (I kept warring with them until I got the message that they and the Germans had made peace), Germany began expanding aggressively, competing with the Rus for space....so I figured it'd just be a matter of time before trouble brewed anew, and with that in mind, went ahead and made a standing RoP agreement with Germany. Meanwhile, my armies turned their loving attentions on the British, kicking them off of the "big island", and then retired to German soil (the germans built two cities in what would be Norway today). So...with a big army up there, and horsemen/swordsmen being cranked out of France proper, with clean lines running through the heart of Germany and straight to Moscow, we were all set.

That's why I got a little miffed when I saw a Russian spear-chucker in France (all by himself, too!)

I told him to leave, and he said he would....didn't.

Then I noticed 4 swordsmen, 4 archers, 2 horsemen, and 3 spearmen (hard NOT to notice that, I admit! LOL) heading for the German nordic cities, so I just told Russia to either leave my turf or declare against me. She DoW'd, and I proceeded to unleash hell itself (10 catapults) on her big force....they got so badly bruised that they were easy pickings for my horse troops (and the army I had stationed up there). (also enlisted the aid of the germans against them....an opportunity that Bismark positively LEPT at!)

I'm actually still fighting the Rus in that game. Should finish it out tonight...have given Germany five formerly Russian towns, with three more on the hit-list. When all is said and done, they should be about equal in size and power to russia, and I can officially leave that part of the world stage alone for a while. But yes....given Russia's aggression, I found that the Germans served me much better in the role of a Junior Partner....that's been good stuff!

India and China though....those are my two nearest rivals in terms of both power and culture.....might have to engineer some trouble out that way....using Japan perhaps? That could be interesting....

Now....about those Panzers..... I have this LOVELY vision of hordes of German panzers at my beck and call...perhaps helping me boost the Babylonians with the destruction of Persia? (ultimately setting up a Babylonian/Greek war to keep them busy?). Yes...I see German Panzers in my future, and it looks pretty cool to me...heh....

-=Vel=-
PS: I think though that if Germany starts making TOOOO much ground on Russia, I'll quietly start supplying the russians with tech....can't let them get tooo uppity....

[Arrian]

Careful now, Vel. Pretty soon you will find yourself in front of your computer rubbing your hands together in anticipation, murmuring "ssssoooon, my precious, ssooon" as you envision yourself the master puppeteer of geopolitics... only you will be in front of your computer at work, and your co-workers will think you've lost it.

I have a question about engineering far-away wars. In order to do it, you have to get an alliance vs. someone or get an MPP and figure out how to have your target attack you. If you sign a military alliance, doesn't that lock you in for 20 turns of war (provided you want your reputation to be spotless)?

Hmm... I'm not explaining this very well. Say you wanted to engineer an asian war in your game, Vel (but do be careful about those land wars in asia, ok?). Say you call up the Japanese and convince them to join you in an alliance vs. China. Your objective, as I understand it, is simply to stir up trouble for China and knock them down a peg or two. Even if you're doing this pre-republic/democracy (so no war-weariness for you), there is a downside. For one thing, China isn't gonna like you much, and since they're not gonna get wiped out you're gonna have to deal with them later. For another, what if China wastes Japan and gets stronger? I don't know, but in my experience the AI ends up causing trouble for itself - usually in the industrial age. Then you can pick a side to bolster w/money or tech.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Hate to break it to you, brother Arrian, but I think my coworkers already think I've lost it...or at the very least am pretty far out there (hmmm....::as he stops to contemplate:: Perhaps it has something to do with that whole "loosely tethered to the shores of reality" comment I made....LOL)

And yes! I must admit that this whole puppettering thing has really been fascinating for me! I'm enjoying this aspect of the game much more than anything else so far. Who wants to control the world directly (ie - own every corruption-ridden city)?! Much more entertaining to practice building civs up and tearing them down as local politics and the winds of change blow across the playing field....eventually engineering the destruction of some ('specially if anybody wants to mess up my fun by attempting to build the space ship or something! Can't be havin' 'em do that! ::evil grin:: ).

As to that asian land war....it'll be REALLY interesting to see how that shakes out. I think where possible, I'll stand clear of it entirely, tho I will likely make a RoP agreement with India to station a token force over there (good use of my soon to be obsolete Longbowmen). Put them there, get an MPP with India and Japan, and then get someone (possibly India/Japan, possibly someone else) to join me in an embargo on China....they declare war, I make sure my longbowmen are very much in harm's way on Indian soil...whamo.....the plot sickens! I love this stuff!



-=Vel=-

[pchang]

My best game so far was an incredible stroke of luck. My first warrior went exploring in pretty much a straight line and about 15 tiles later ran into (an captured) a Japanese worker. Two tiles later, he dan into Kyoto defended by 1 warrior. For the heck of it, I attacked, and lo and behold, I won! In addition to capturing Kyoto, I also captured two more Japanese workers (I guess that explains why the pop was only 1). With a great start like this, I was golden for the rest of the game.

[mlepinski]

I noticed the following situation in a recent game:

In the early game, I'm the only empire with contact with India. I soon meet Rome and France. I decide to trade Communications with India to Rome for some cash. I then go to France and find out that they already have Communications with India. Now, either I'm dreaming, or someone traded communications with India to France during my turn.

I think this is a result of applying the patch since I've observed situations like this several times since patching and I don't remember anything like this pre-patch. Has anyone else noticed this type of behaivor?

Thanks,
- Matt Lepinski :->

[Quurgoth]

I'm in the final stages of winning another "purist" game (no IFE, no pop rushing, city placement at least 4 squares apart, etc.). This time I almost managed to win without a war, but I must confess that I succumbed to temptation and embarked upon the eventual annihilation of France after I got cavalry.

A few observations (large/regent/continents/restless, America):

1. Expanisionist is AWESOME for peaceful games on a large map.

a) One of my early goodie huts yielded a settler (!), which became a city on the edge of my northern border with India, and which was placed smack in the middle of four spices.
b) I eventually controlled the world supply of four luxuries, with multiples of each, which was HUGE later in the game for restoring damaged reputation, gaining tech, making money, and keeping the AI happy with me. I also (!) controlled all of my continent's iron, which I NEVER traded to anyone.
c) I was fortunate enough to be located roughly in the center of four AI civs, and I was able to crank out enough scouts (sending them in each direction) to get contact with them before they contacted each other. This meant I was able to trade for every tech... by the end of the ancient era, I was 5 techs ahead of some of the civs.

2. Stabbing your ally in the back can be your friend

I made an MPP with India fairly early in the game, as India was the only civ between myself and Egypt, where Cleopatra was behaving pretty aggressively. I wanted a partner/buffer, so Ghandi and I became pals. To my total surprise, however, France attacked me along my southern border!

Perhaps this is due to my "turtle" style of play... I build 1-3 defensive units per city, workers, and that's it. Maybe she thought I was weak... but when I refused to cave in to her demands for my map and cash, she felt she could run over me.

I proceeded to complete an army of cavalry, while India sent its war elephants down (slowly, as we had no RoP agreement). Once I amassed enough cavalry to take three cities in one fell swoop, I attacked... and Joan refused to surrender. So I took a few more cities. Eventually, she agreed to peace, but DOH! That really peeved Ghandi. He still doesn't like me, hundreds of years later.

After I made peace, Ghandi and France continued their battle, and shortly thereafter Persia and Egypt declared war on France as well. This left me sitting pretty: France is the southernmost civ on my map, with my fairly large territory to her north, so the invading civs took a loooooong time to get their armies, one square per turn, to battle. During that time their tech and cultural production slowed considerably, and I was able to culturally absorb a few Indian cities.

Eventually, France was annihilated (alas, as I like vassals), and I worked long and hard toward repairing relations with India. I've also been left with four smallish cities along my southern border, which I assume I'll eventually be able to culturally absorb.

I think the key here was the MPP and eventual desertion of my partner... I was able to focus on tech, culture, and defense, while the AIs went to war. This left me a HUGE lead in the trade game, in which I managed to earn ~700 gold/turn from the opposing civs, which left me with the freedom to discover tech every 4 turns.

3. A late golden age is FREAKING HUGE. My golden age came as I was about to embark upon the Hoover Dam... and WOW, did it make me a powerhouse. I was able to complete my defensive armies (ramping up to a minimum of 2 defensive and one artillery per city, with more in border towns), complete the Dam, Intelligence Agency, and Battlefield Medicine, and even more importantly, I was able to get factories in nearly every town. I left the AI in the dust due to that golden age

********

Although I'm not playing at a high difficulty level, I hope someone out there who enjoys playing purist games can get something from my observations... this game is so much fun!

[DaBear]

I'm doing the tournament now game so I haven't patched yet but this was weird.
I'm trading with Germany
They have Music Theory and I want it to trade to others.
I ask him "What will he take for it"?
He answers "I can't see that it is possible"
I figure lets see how close I am
The Offer
Gems (fairly rare on the map) 42 Gold per turn and 328 gold
Not acceptable.
As I'm clearing the table manually I notice when left with only 328 gold he will probably accept ... Huh?
I sold it for 308 gold.

Now I'm wondering since I was @ 100% Tech my gold per turn would have been in the negatives but my trades ( I love being a merchant/broker) brought it positive. In trading do the other civs take this into account or do they think I'm a bad investment?

As a side note to merchant/brokers consider the type of civs that are with you in a tech race, especially those with a edge on development time. Don't research the same tech if given a choice. Don't use the crystal ball of saved games but understand the opponent civ. Example a military civ will generally research a military tech over any other given a choice. If everyone is left with only one tech ... turn you research engine off...make money and then trade for it... then throttle back up.

[Adam Wallock]

DB-

There is clearly some sort of new bug in the AI bargaining behavior. I have noticed instances like your example and times when I ask the AI what they'd offer for X, they make an offer, I tweak it, the Advisor says they'd NEVER acept that, I set it back to the AI's offer and it's now somehow unacceptable. But if I clear the queue and make the same offer The AI will agree to the same deal. (Does that make sense? )

Anyhow I reported this in the Patch thread over in the General Forum, but Firaxis hasn't acknowledged (AFAICT) the existence of a problem here.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark... (err....Civ3)

[DaBear]

Originally posted by Adam Wallock
DB-

There is clearly some sort of new bug in the AI bargaining behavior. I have noticed instances like your example and times when I ask the AI what they'd offer for X, they make an offer, I tweak it, the Advisor says they'd NEVER accept that,"

Most of the time it means the civ can not offer you the $/turn you were requesting...
[/QUOTE]I set it back to the AI's offer and it's now somehow unacceptable. But if I clear the queue and make the same offer The AI will agree to the same deal. (Does that make sense? ) [/QUOTE]

Most likely it was a marginal trade and as such the threshold for his offer will be lower than yours (It was their idea :LoL)...


[/QUOTE]Something is rotten in the state of Denmark... (err....Civ3) [/QUOTE]
"Is that a dagger that I see?"

[Nero Would]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Profoundly important bit from Jeff Morris - Firaxis

If you capture a city that has not generated any culture, you will Raze that city, regardless of its size....
(snip)

Are you sure about the "regardless of size part? Jeff's post in the "v1.16f: Issues? Bugs?" thread says

This should have been in the readme.txt. If you capture a city of population 1 and the city has generated no culture, it is automatically destroyed.

I have seen other people post that cities larger than size 1 have been razed, so perhaps Jeff changed the wording in a different post.

[sophist]

Originally posted by DaBear

Most likely it was a marginal trade and as such the threshold for his offer will be lower than yours (It was their idea :LoL)...

I think he's referring to the sort of behavior I too have seen. You ask the AI what it will pay and it puts up an offer. You think, ok, good, but I want world map. Nope, unacceptable. So you take world map off, leaving the offer exactly as it was offered by the AI initially. Nope, unacceptable. Clear the table, ask them again what they'll offer, and you get the same thing.