Why do you spit in our faces, Firaxis?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Yoleus
Markos: IMHO you are always too cheery with developers... is everything always OK for you? I do not remember you ignore or criticize ANY civ game... not even Ctp. Maybe that's just because I only surf the forum occasionally.

ctp: see my review in our ctp section
civ3: see my impressions in our civ3 section....

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by MarkG
ctp: see my review in our ctp section
civ3: see my impressions in our civ3 section....

Can you help me with a link?

[Libertarian]

Judging from how long you have been at this site...

That's twice that you've novitatemed me. If you make your judgments in this manner, it is no wonder that you have judged the Firaxis developers to be evasive.

[crewealex]

"If you are nice to people,they will be nice to you." Rather trite and sometimes inaccurate but nevertheless, a far better way of negotiating life than raving and abusing, People tend to respond to positive remarks(that includes construstive criticism) in a positive way.
I `ve been astonished at the insults and general unpleasantness that take place on this forum. Many participants appear to be lacking in fundamental social skills and perhaps need to spend less time cowering behind a keyboard and more time getting out and about dealing with people in the real world. Remove the cloak of annonymity and I just wonder how these people would behave then. If they interacted in the same way as they do here it would be a quick case of a clip round the ear and on you way sonny.
I`m particularly astonished at the level of abuse given out to the Firaxis employees. The very fact that they visit the forum in order to get feedback suggests that they want to improve the game and will take constructive suggestions on board. I`m impressed with their level of commitment to the game but even more impressed with their patience and tolerance towards the social inadequates who abuse them and their company. It would be quite understandable if they stopped spending time here and started work on a new project. They must be sick of all this nonsense.
I appreciate that as a new poster I have a status akin to something that resides on the bottom of a pond. However, better that than a veteran who just wishes to brag about how wonderful he is ,show people how arrogant he is and generally be as obnoxious as possible. Not everyone but certainly a significant minority.
To that minority,get out and start meeting people.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Yoleus


You score a point, patches are for fans (for selling more copies to more fans).
But why do you think scenario capabilities will be in a patch??
Mahaga DID NOT SAY patch...
They will be in a nice expansion pack!
And that's why they are keeping the silence... would you keep buying the game as it is now if you'd know that a Scenario version/expansion is coming out in some months?
They "care" about us as much as tobacco firms care about their market target

Markos: IMHO you are always too cheery with developers... is everything always OK for you? I do not remember you ignore or criticize ANY civ game... not even Ctp. Maybe that's just because I only surf the forum occasionally.

I didn't say patch, and I didn't say an expansion, either. This is exactly the kind of "conclusion-jumping" that I was referring to in my original post.

Simply put, for those who may have missed it earlier, we aren't saying *anything* until we know whether it's going to happen or not.

Dan

[Slocombe]

crewealex:
HERE! HERE!

Is it just a British thing, this treating one's fellows, even enemies, with decency, civility and manners?

[jackshot]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Simply put, for those who may have missed it earlier, we aren't saying *anything* until we know whether it's going to happen or not.

Dan

I doubt the same will be true around here.

[Hoek]

I am not bragging about anything. I am pointing out the difference between people who have been members of the community for a long time (who generally are disappointed as well) and those who are new to the community (who may not understand why we make threads critical of Firaxis). I assume this is the first thing you've read from me, and that your entire basis for being critical of "some people's" social skills comes from my posts here. That just shows that you rush to judge people, which is a good deal worse than stating what's on one's mind. Your "english civility" apparently does not prevent you from passing judgement on me based on incomplete knowledge of me. Instead of criticizing me through a thin veil of third-person referencing, you should try to criticize me directly. Being direct and clear about what you say and what you mean is vital. You call me arrogant and socially inept without knowing me and call yourself civil?

The fact is that Firaxis and Infogrames have not responded to many previous threads that have been quite positive regarding the prospects for scenario-making capabilities. I needed to get Firaxis's attention to know if they are even willing to address the matters I bring up. Many of us were also quite shocked at the German-translation fiasco. It gave many of us a dim outlook for the prospects of scenario-making in the future and gave us a glimpse of the attitude Infogrames was going to adopt towards the community. I admit that my title was a bit too much, and I apologize to Dan if I offended you. I won't withdraw my criticism of PR, though. Public Relations alone has soured many towards Firaxis. I personally think they make quality games, but there's no doubt that how they handle Civ 3 will determine their sucess.

Dan: I apologize for the title of the thread if it offended you. It was too much just to get your attention. I thank you for finally giving it to us straight that you just don't know if there will be scenario-making capabilities or not. That will certainly quiet me a great deal because I don't have to go around asking about it any more. It is important to let loyal fans know if they should sit on their hands or not.

[Xuenay]

* Editor: Added Barbarian Combat Bonus to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added Cost Factor to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added AI unit support bonus to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added AI bonus starting units to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added AI max. govt. transition time to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added corruption modifier to difficulty level tab.
* Editor: Added a number of armies requirement for Improvements and Wonders.
* Editor: Added a small wonder ability checkbox for "Requires a Victorious Army" for Improvements and Wonders.
* Editor: On General Settings, added Border Factor which controls border expansion.
* Editor: On General Settings, added Future Tech Cost.
* Editor: On General Settings, added Min. Tech Turns.
* Editor: On General Settings, added Max. Tech Turns.
* Editor: On General Settings, added Golden Age Duration.
* Editor: Added mission cost to Diplomats and Spies page.

Yes, Firaxis is definitely intending to sell us all the scenario tools in an expansion pack. That's why they added all of these new editor features in the patch.

[Hoek]

Except that these do absolutely nothing to allow scenario creators to actually create a scenario. Note that we still can not place cities and units and lay infrastructure. You also can't make flat maps. The editor should be quite useful once people can actually create scenarios, but as it stands, there is no scenario-creation capability and Dan has just indicated that he doesn't even know if there ever will be scenario-creation capabilities.

[crewealex]

Hoek,
The criticism wasn`t directed at you in particular. It was more of a case that your thread was the last straw(certainly the title) and therefore you got the full blast of something that was directed at a lot more people.

Looking back at my previous remarks,perhaps they were a bit severely expressed for which I apologise. It`s just that I`m thoroughly sick of so many threads degenerating into slanging matches. I come here for information and intelligent comment,not snappy abuse and gormless rantings. Sometimes I get the former but too often it`s been the latter.

I note that you apologise for the title and I hope you can accept that the comments were not specifically at you.

crewealex

[Velociryx]

::does a doubletake on this thread::

Whaaaaa???

What did Infogrames do to Hurricane re: their strat guide?!?! I hadn't heard about that.....dayum....as a strat guide author myself, this one hits close to home for me!

-=Vel=-

[AntiQaj]

Here's a few things for everyone (Firaxis, sycophants, fans, ordinary player, detractors and Yin ) to keep in mind:

• Other software houses and publishers have been far more forthcoming with patch information and general feedback, and have produced superb games. The mushroom treatment is not necessary in order to get a patch out.
• A little recognition of problems would be a good thing, but not so little that it leaves most people frustrated. Perhaps a long, comprehensive list of people's problems, the relative difficulty, a very tentative schedule would alleviate the axieties of many players.
• Firaxis are not miracle workers! They have only a limited amount of resources, and have to work with Infogrames (I'm presuming - if the patch release quality control is anything like what I remember of the SMAC patches - that some kind of authorisation is required) and these things take time.
• Yin is right - PR is not an afterthought. Whether you're a furniture maker, a software house, or a supermarket, customer service is EVERYTHING to the company that wants to make money. Hype will only go so far. Quality of product and aftersales service count for a LOT.
• Isn' there some kind of quoe that says for eevery disgruntled customer, you lose ten sales? Word of mouth is POWERFUL.
• Alienating your customer base is Not A Good Thing. Look what happened with SMAC and ACOL. Many of the ACOLytes were Civ fans when they bought SMAC, but because of certain PR blunders by Firaxis (some of which they appear to be repeating) they created a community of people who will NEVER buy another Firaxis game, no matter how good.
• One patch is better than no patches. Be thankful.
• A mostly fixed game is better than a hastily patched game. Be vigilant.

My biggest piece of advice is to Dan Magaha. Get someone at Firaxis to authorise a weekly report to release to the Apolyton community. Briefly (but not too briefly) outline what work happened on Civ3 over the past week, including problems identified, problems solved, fixes abandoned etc. Just so it looks like you're doing more than occasional posts on the boards here. Even just the appearance of doing something is better than almost silence. I know you may have your hands tied regarding what information you're allowed to release, but try to convince someone in charge that this would, if nothing else, create a large amount of good will in people who stand to be your future customers

Rant mode off!

[Vonotar]

Originally posted by crewealex
I appreciate that as a new poster I have a status akin to something that resides on the bottom of a pond. However, better that than a veteran who just wishes to brag about how wonderful he is ,show people how arrogant he is and generally be as obnoxious as possible.

More new posters like CreweAlex please!

IMHO People can complain, they can occasionally rant and a bit of light satirical humour can be funny. But some people here seem to be worshipping the gods of Anger and Insult

Aloisia Vonotar

P.S. I take it the user name is a homage to a certain football team (which is only 15 mins away from my house)

[ENGINEER]

::does a doubletake on this thread::

Whaaaaa???

What did Infogrames do to Hurricane re: their strat guide?!?! I hadn't heard about that.....dayum....as a strat guide author myself, this one hits close to home for me!

-=Vel=-

You could probally read more about it in the news, but I believe Prima, the maker of the offical stra guide, did a ceast and desist on Hurricane since they were selling a guide also.

Seems to me as long as they don't claim to be the offical guide anyone should be able to sell their experiences as free speech. I wonder how any of this would hold up in court? I guess you would be betting too much of your own money to find out. BTW liked your guide for SMAX
Any for Civ 3 yet? Can't sue you if it is free right?

[Thresh1642]

Software houses and publishers have been far more forthcoming with patch information and general feedback, and have produced superb games. The mushroom treatment is not necessary in order to get a patch out.

And other companies have released bad games with no patches at all. We seem to be in a middle gound at the moment. At least there are people from Fireaxis responding to our enquiries

A little recognition of problems would be a good thing, but not so little that it leaves most people frustrated. Perhaps a long, comprehensive list of people's problems, the relative difficulty, a very tentative schedule would alleviate the axieties of many players.

Problem with this is, people will see a tentative schedule, and assume its the real schedule, and when it's not adhered to, they'll pitch a fit. Say something at 10AM, people will start wondering at Noon what's going on, and getting mad a 2PM the problems not solved. And worse, lets say the people at Firaxis are considering 100 things to add with the editor. If they print that list, people will look at it and critique, which is not a problem. But, if the editor is released, and only 75-85 of those ites are included, the howls will be heard across the land like you wouldn't believe.

Firaxis are not miracle workers! They have only a limited amount of resources, and have to work with Infogrames (I'm presuming - if the patch release quality control is anything like what I remember of the SMAC patches - that some kind of authorisation is required) and these things take time.

True. Very True

Yin is right - PR is not an afterthought. Whether you're a furniture maker, a software house, or a supermarket, customer service is EVERYTHING to the company that wants to make money. Hype will only go so far. Quality of product and aftersales service count for a LOT.

Also true, but then Dan and Jeffs participation in these threads and Firaxis efforts to pathc the game shouldn't be considered bad PR.

Isn' there some kind of quote that says for every disgruntled customer, you lose ten sales? Word of mouth is POWERFUL.

Thats true, but it also depends on what the mouth in question is saying.

[QOUTE] Alienating your customer base is Not A Good Thing. Look what happened with SMAC and ACOL. Many of the ACOLytes were Civ fans when they bought SMAC, but because of certain PR blunders by Firaxis (some of which they appear to be repeating) they created a community of people who will NEVER buy another Firaxis game, no matter how good.

One patch is better than no patches. Be thankful.

A mostly fixed game is better than a hastily patched game. Be vigilant. [/QUOTE]

All true. we had to go through what, six or seven patches for Civ2. I never played CTP or CTP2, so I am not sure how many patches there are for those games.

I do think that for the majority of Civ3 gamers (those of us who are not big fans of MP) are that upset over the product that was sold. It wasn't as buggy as it could have been, and the majority of the bugs affecting gameplay have been resolved with this first patch.

Besides, I like to try and beat the game first before modding it, so waiting for an editor is not driving me up the proverbial wall.

[MarkG]

Thresh1642, ACOL now has an active civ3 forum and it's owner is making her own civ3 mod...

[crewealex]

"Homage"

A thoughtful and intelligent choice of vocabulary. Some other people would call it blind stupidity!

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
I didn't say patch, and I didn't say an expansion, either. This is exactly the kind of "conclusion-jumping" that I was referring to in my original post.

Simply put, for those who may have missed it earlier, we aren't saying *anything* until we know whether it's going to happen or not.

Dan

Thanks for the reply!
You are right, that was just my PERSONAL and UNSUPPORTED opinion.
I am sorry if I sounded conclusion-jumping, I will try to stress it more in the future (more IMHOs).
The thing is that I miss any external info. I just do not know anything of what Firaxis is planning to do for CivIII. Not the minimal bit of info, exactly as you posted. I just know that there is out a fair game (CivIII) but with no MP, no editor, no scenarios. I spent some time in the forum to collect some reasonable opinions (quite difficult, even cutting apart Yin and Libertarian who, by the way, are talking to each other in a nice 2 posters thread ) and to get some info on the version to buy: the standard is pretty uncomplete (IMHO), the LE is a joke (IMHO), the eventual others I do not know nothing of, and you say Firaxis does not know for sure either, even if it has been working on the game for a while and relies on its sells. So THE ONLY THING I CAN DO IS SPECULATE.
If it bothers you, I am sorry. I am just quite disappointed.

[AntiQaj]

MarkG, sure, there are a few of us at PlanetACOL who bought the game and like it. But we were severely disappointed with the sheer number of bugs in SMAC/SMAX, even after all the patches. Those of us that did buy the game were willing to give Firaxis the benefit of the doubt and see if they could get a handle on quality control this time around, not to mention the exceptionall poor way they handled some PR issues like the forum and email feedback. The really did give the impression they were only interested in our money and not much else (note: this may not have been the case, but it was the impression most of us had).

This time, I'd like to think they've changed, but if they have, the change is very slight. I don't think I'll be buying another Firaxis game, no matter how fun-looking or hyped it is, if this one ends up like SMAC/SMAX did (ie. still full of bugs, with many of the ones identified in v1.0 still manifest!)

But don't get me wrong. Civ3 is a good game, not a GREAT game, though with some knuckling down on the part of the programmers it could be.

[Kolyana]

Alienating your customer base is Not A Good Thing. Look what happened with SMAC and ACOL. Many of the ACOLytes were Civ fans when they bought SMAC, but because of certain PR blunders by Firaxis (some of which they appear to be repeating) they created a community of people who will NEVER buy another Firaxis game, no matter how good.

Ooh, me smells Gossip.

Do tell, what happened with SMAC? I bought the game, played it to hell, then stopped and went onto other things when they started releasing all sorts of addons and stuff.

Go on ... add some detail to this ...

[yin26]

LOL! Well, you can pretty much imagine the kinds of things you see here with Civ3 -- bad PR, sloppy release and patching, etc. -- but it got a bit more personal with Dan and Jeff from Firaxis. This caused them to actually close down their forums because Dan felt it was better to delete or lock any kind of criticism about the game. And Jeff was busy writing articles about how fans get more enjoyment on-line when there are bugs to talk about. In fact, he still claims, on-line communities simply die when a game lacks bugs to talk about.

Combine all that and you had some really pissed off people. They still haunt the halls, actually ...

[H Tower]

the ambiguity of there posts doesn't make me like them anymore, in fact, i despise them all the more for it.

yin, is it time for the pesimist club to claim victory over all the other clubs and say "civ3 sucks, we were right, you were wrong!" ?

[yin26]

I would never claim victory. It's too solemn an occasion. Too important a topic. Yeah, right!!! LOL!

[DaShi]

Let me get this right. A lot of people bought CivIII because they believed that it had scenerio creating capabilities. Then they add editing features that don't allow you create scenerios. Now Firaxis is saying that they don't know if there will EVER be scenerio creating abilities. Was this promised or not?

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by DaShi
Let me get this right. A lot of people bought CivIII because they believed that it had scenerio creating capabilities. Then they add editing features that don't allow you create scenerios. Now Firaxis is saying that they don't know if there will EVER be scenerio creating abilities. Was this promised or not?

It's not so much that they lied to us, more like most were dissappointed when the promised us that:

"Civ III will ship with an editor that will allow you to greatly customize your Civ experience. This editor not only allows you to alter game elements such as advances, civilizations, units and wonders (to name a few), but also includes a robust map editor."

And

"More powerful and intuitive customization tools."

(Both from the Civ3 FAQ at the official site .

I dunno. What we recieved was indeed 'new', but in order to be 'more powerful', shouldn't we be able to do more than before?

[Provost Harrison]

Blame Infogrames, it's all their fault

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Blame Infogrames, it's all their fault

Hmyeah when *are* we going to get avatars back? I can't wait to bother everybody with the power of 500 posts custom avatar-ery.

[Kolyana]

And Jeff was busy writing articles about how fans get more enjoyment on-line when there are bugs to talk about. In fact, he still claims, on-line communities simply die when a game lacks bugs to talk about.

?

:: Blank Stare ::

HAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA.

:: sniff ::

:: Wipes tear ::

I'd put that up with "I invented the Internet".

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Blame Infogrames, it's all their fault

Dunno.