My Criticisms of Civ3 (with questions for Firaxis)

[Deornwulf]

I've been lurking for several weeks and have wanted to ask this question - And I ask in all seriousness.....

Yin and Venger - Do either one of you have any programming experience? If you do, would you find a venture capitalist and form a gaming software company? I would like to play the version of Civilization that your suggestions would bring about.

If neither one of you actually knows how to program, would you find a friend who does. Tell him (or her) your ideas and make a game that would really be the Civ Game to beat all Civ Games.

As for the rest of the "whiners," stop whining and do something about it. Consumer dissatisfaction is one of the biggest motivators in starting new businesses. So, go out and start your own software house and produce really cool games. (Just don't sell-out like it appears Firaxis has).

Most of the problems you post are valid. The game is not what you expected. I'm not entirely satisfied with the game (but for some reason I keep playing it.) I challenge you to do something about it instead of just complaining. If you all pooled you resources and ideas, you would be able to make your vision of what a Civ game should be into reality. Heck, if there were enough of you, a proxy bid could be made to take control of Infogreed and the rights to the Civilization name.

Besides being responsible for creating the greatest game ever, think of all the wonderful responses those fanboys you currently despise would give you. The tons of money wouldn't be all that bad either.

If anyone out there actually acts on this, keep me in mind for the job of Tech Writer.

Deornwulf - The English Teacher

[Chronus]

Having to move more than a hundred workers one unit at a time is simply insanity.

Even if they don't implement stacked movement, I'd find it helpful if Firaxis simply allowed us to select multiple units at the same time . . . say SHIFT+CTRL+CLICK. This is already partially allowed with the unit menu. I could click a whole bunch of units and then click the GOTO feature to direct them all at once. The individual units already retain their destinations in memory, so I would think this would be an easy programming feature to implement. I'm not asking for anything fancy here. I don't need (or want) message boxes popping up to tell me one of my units can't move there. If the unit can't move there then the GOTO command for that unit should simply be ignored.

[yin26]

Don't feed me this "Are you a programmer?" crap. It sickens me. I just love how everybody who can turn on a computer and get some program to type 'Hello World!' thinks he's a friggen genius in programming. Give me a break for the Love of God!

First understand my posts THEN type up your sludge if you wish.

Until then, troll in other waters.

[FALVES]

Originally posted by yin26
Don't feed me this "Are you a programmer?" crap.

I have to agree with Yin on this one. Why should I, a gamer, have the slightest notion of programming when all I want is to have fun playing a game?

Do not excuse the faults of a game with the "programming".

[cutlerd]

I hear a lot of people whining about the AI civs constantly intruding on their territory.

I am a bit confused by this for several reasons:

1. So what? Who cares if they tromp through your kingdom on the way to business elsewhere? Usually the AI does this either when it is at war with a civ that is across your nation or it needs to support a city that is separated from its homeland by your nation. Is there really so much harm in letting a line of garrisons and workers cross your mighty lands?

2. I find that once you kick a civ's butt in war he becomes much more reluctant to cross your borders. So if you are really that pissed off...tell him to leave.

3. If you keep telling him to leave and he does but then continually comes back, then garrison your border.

Garrisoning your border is not that difficult. Once I have what I believe will be a static border I general put 1 modern defensive unit per square on the border and then build a fort. This creates a sort of Maginot Line. The concept of having a guarded border makes perfect sense, especially in the early industrial age. Such a border helps to blunt the effect of surprise attacks and gives you an instant force at hand to hit roads and rails or to garrison nearby cities.

Devin

[Venger]

Why yes, in fact, I would love to associate with a quality gamehouse and produce the definitive TBS Civ game. I have no doubt it would be hugely successful.

Alas, the story of a man who went to heaven comes to mind... he asked the Lord who the most talented painter in history was - was it Picasso, Renoir, Monet, Rembrandt? It was, the Lord replied, Davis. Davis, the man thought? What did he paint? The Lord replied "he never painted anything"...

That we may not do all things doesn't mean we are not capable of them in the right circumstance. There is also a critical difference between taste and talent - one can have a keen eye for art, but not be an artist.

That said, is it okay if I have an opinon on a game if I never get around to making my own? Can I have an opinion on this game even if I don't have the skills to make one of my own?

Venger

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by Venger
That said, is it okay if I have an opinon on a game if I never get around to making my own? Can I have an opinion on this game even if I don't have the skills to make one of my own?

No. You evidently have to be an 'expert' on everything and worship Infogames/Firaxes' wonderful anuses to be able to post an opinion without bein flamed from here to next Tuesday.

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Libertarian
FF E0 11 D8 44 46
FF E0 11 D8 44 4F
FF E0 11 D8 44 52
FF E0 11 D8 44 20
FF E0 11 D8 44 59
FF E0 11 D8 44 4F
FF E0 11 D8 44 55
FF E0 11 D8 44 2C
FF E0 11 D8 44 20
FF E0 11 D8 44 59
FF E0 11 D8 44 45
FF E0 11 D8 44 53
FF E0 11 D8 44 21

Translation for the ASCII impaired: "FOR YOU, YES!"

[Xentropy]

[Libertarian]

Yin and Venger,

I could be wrong, but I think the guy was on your side. He thought your ideas were good, and sought to motivate you to implement them.

Xentropy,

Well done.

Firaxis,

Answers would be nice.

[Deornwulf]

To all others - Sorry for hijacking the thread.

Yin and Venger

Thank you for spitting the venom in my face when I made a perfectly civil post. I was serious about my desire to see one or both of you seriously persue developing your own TBS game. I made the post as a call to action not to come across like a fanboy of Firaxis and Infogreed.

"Well then, why don't you do it yourself!"

I am. I have been dissappointed by every TBS Space Empire type game that has been released since I bought my Atari ST (The best computer of its time!) Because of this, I am working with a programmer and learning programming myself to write a game that has all of the features that I think a space game should have. Unfortunately my career as a teacher prevents me from spending much time on this project so we are not much past the initial development stage.

I have to admit that I don't know what your current circumstances so I don't know if either one of you have the resources, time, or knowledge to create a game. I do know that in reading your posts (aside from the venom and teen angst) that you have some good ideas as to what a TBS like Civilization should have.

So, I merely asked if you were willing to take action on your words. In return, Yin, you insult me. As simple no would have sufficed. Venger at least had the decency give an eloquent reply.

Quoted from Venger - "That said, is it okay if I have an opinon on a game if I never get around to making my own? Can I have an opinion on this game even if I don't have the skills to make one of my own?"

Yes Venger, you can have your opinion. (Not that you need my permission) You answered my question. I look forward to continue reading your insightful posts and hope that others are willing to act on your suggestions.

Inspite of the insults, Yin, I think you have some good ideas as well. I happen to agree with you and think that the game is not complete in its current state. At best, Civ III can be viewed as still in the Beta Test stage. Infogreed has scammed us all to pay $40 to do their playtesting for a game that will always be fundamentally broken because of the corners cut in the initial programming.

To prevent further hijacking of this thread I'm going throw out a thread to the to both of you to see if you'll bite.

Deornwulf - The English Teacher

[Venger]

[Venger]

If I mistook your statement re: programming my own game as an inditement, I apologize.

Venger

[Deornwulf]

Venger - Thanks for the apology and fast reply.

Yin is right, Talking about Civ III and what is wrong with it is more fun then playing the current version Civ III.

[Libertarian]

Well, it appears that no response from Firaxis will be forthcoming. I presume that implies that either they hate me, or there will be no stack movement or sensible unit activation order.

Sorry, guys, I tried.

[Special_Olympic]

Originally posted by Jodo Kast
Ok smart alec.

Think about it: You have 75 units to control. You create them in a certain order.

The battles rage and your archer and horseman are fortified. Now you may have all of your workers queued up, but the archer is done repairing itself.

And since the Archer's Number is 'up', it gets ready to go.

This has ALWAYS been like this for ALL civilization games. And Call to Power. There are a lot of units and if you make a mistake and move a worker on to a mountain, live with it!!!

You have 70 more units to bother with, get on it. Again, instead of complaining, get over it. It's just a game.

Whatever, llama.

The game needs stack movement simply to cut down the number clicks needed. Carpal tunnel anyone?

If I have 5 workers making a railroad in the same sqaure wouldn't it be better to just click once? WTF? Why should I need to make five clicks for that? It's stupid and boring.

[Special_Olympic]

I'm guessing that Firaxis can't figure out how to get stack movement in. It's probably some flaw in the programming that makes it too hard to do.

[Libertarian]

It's difficult to speculate when they flat out ignore the question. You could be right. There might be some hard-coding that makes stack movement problematic. Or they might just think it isn't important (especially if they don't play empire-building strategies into the modern era). Or they might not care. Who knows?

[jbrians]

Originally posted by Special_Olympic
I'm guessing that Firaxis can't figure out how to get stack movement in. It's probably some flaw in the programming that makes it too hard to do.

This doesn't sound like a design problem to me. Even if it had been designed to have this from the outset it would be non-trivial to implement. Remember a feature that takes 1 week for a dev to do takes another week to spec out and 2 more weeks to test, and that's assuming everything goes according to plan!

What happens when you attack with a stack? Do they all attack? In what order? Depending on how it's implemented, what is the advantage of an Army? What if the stack has units of different move rates? What is the interface for bundling/unbundling units?

Seems to me that this is a prime target for a cut when you go to the adds/cuts meeting and you're over-scheduled.
-Brian

[Libertarian]

We aren't talking about stack attacks. We're talking about stack movement. I have four workers who just finished railroading a mountain. I want to move them (and five other such brigades) to new mountains to begin work. That's all.

And yes, I understand that it might not be trivial to implement. But who can say? The one(s) who can aren't answering.

[Kolyana]

QUESTION:

Why are none of the lists in the game sorted in any form of order???

PROBLEM:
Trading one city from 100+ and sorting through a list in random order.

PROBLEM:
Using the editor with every list in rando-style-listing and just about every list in the game.

REASONS:

a) Programmers overlooked this glaringly obvious necessity.
b) Programmers couldn't be bothered.
c) Programmers couldn't figure out how to do it.
d) Playtesters never pointed out this horrible flaw.
e) There were no playtesters.

Sorry, love the game, but time after time I'm encountering extremely sloppy workmanship. This is one of them.

[scientist]

I am having a psychic vision:

DAN JEFFREY MAGAHA MORRIS POSTS:

I can neither confirm nor deny that we are or are not at work on any aspect of Civ III. I could tell you but than I would have to have you all killed, for knowing our secret, which is that we farmed out the work on Civ III to underpaid Indian programmers and that Sid Meier was kidnapped by aliens years ago and we have an advanced animatronic robot posing as him in the meanwhile. We have pissed off the last six weeks chasing transexual hookers in Bangkok, which is why the patch is so buggy.

We should also inform you that you will soon be spending time in jail, because Infogrames has a strict "no modification without prior permission" policy, and it has come to our attention that some of you have fallen for our trap and used the so-called Civ III editor, which is really a longstanding sting operation for catching hackers put in place by the FBI.

Lizards! Navels! Furry Lizard Navels!


OK, Firaxis-Infogrames-stein, you can now post your usual insipid, useless reply to this post, rather than reply to Libertarian's polite, well thought out questions.

Civ III isn't such a bad game, as these things go when you consider it is still essentially a tweak of a ten-year-old game, but I am starting to hate Firaxis' and Infogrames' indifferent contempt to its fans.

Come to the dark side Libertarian! You've been nice for too long!

The dark side of Apolyon will crush you, Firaxis-Infogrames-stein. All your bases will belong to us!!!(BTW, did you get permission to steal that phrase from the original author, you copyright-thieving blackguards?)

sigh, boy it feels good to let loose every once in a while. That was more fun than playing Civ III.

[Libertarian]

I must admit that it is more than a bit disconcerting that one's history of staunch support merits nothing more than being summarily ignored. I have no idea why they are not responding to this.

I believe the request is reasonable. Whatever resources are put toward thwarting munchkinism would be better served improving gameplay.

After all, a player may select not to lumberjack. But he has no choice when it comes to moving a hundred workers one at a time.