Government type that influences production

Well, in Civ2 we had two governemnt forms that raised the trade amount: republic and democracy

I'd like to see government types that increase the production or the food output

Communism/Fascism would be predestinated for this, weren't they?

[Stuff2]

I think that governments are much more complex than that. I think SMAC where on the right track but they didn't succeed.

Andz - Maybe it doesn't matter b/c I'm ONLY a Warlord but the thread Units and Democracy is currently debating on this. I thought up a system for an increase in production under Communism. Me Dalgetti and Par have been going over it. We'd love some new ideas as well.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Well, WARLORD I couldn't know about your disgressing...I'll go and check

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Andz83 on 05-13-2000 05:04 PM Well, in Civ2 we had two governemnt forms that raised the trade amount: republic and democracy I'd like to see government types that increase the production or the food output Communism/Fascism would be predestinated for this, weren't they?

Well, two parts to the question...

1) The governments need to have tradeoffs that balance against each other and avail strategies that can be successful in each without being unbeatable.

2) Communism is possibly the WORST government for production, food, or research. The USSR, North Korea, China, Cuba, etc. are all excellent examples. All are net food importers, all have standards of living under what we would consider reasonable (see if your local North Korean retailer has ToT on the shelf. Or even has a shelf), all have technology that laughably lags behind western standards.

Fascism is kind of tricky, as it isn't neccesarily a form of government as opposed to a trait. People like to equate Nazism to Fascism, which is not really correct, although some traits are common between them. Nazism had more in common with Stalinist Communism than any other major government in Europe (stooge in Italy notwithstanding).

If one wanted a fascist government, I would offer benefits of reduced unhappiness, free support for two units, maybe a special unit (security troops) that can reduce unhappiness in any city by 4 (important when capturing cities). As a disadvantage, science should take 2 extra turns REGARDLESS of light bulb production (Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists), higher rates of barbarians (resistance by undesirables), and negative diplomatic tendencies (countries tend to be hostile).

Communists...well, frankly the current Civ2 communist unit is really unrealistic for the government, but if it were realistic (1/2 science, -1 food, -1 shield), who'd choose it? Maybe reduced unhappies, security troops, immunity to diplomatic pressure...

Venger

Venger - minus one shield?? minus 1/2 science??? "reduced unhappies"?!?!?!

You must be joking! Go check out "units and democracy". Dalgetti and I just went through how Communism should be changed to lose food and GAIN shield and science production. We have HUGE posts about it.

And to whoever made the post about two free units under facism, I agree. But I'd actually make it more than two. Or full support for a certain unit (similar to Fundy)

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 14, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 05:58 PM Venger - minus one shield?? minus 1/2 science??? "reduced unhappies"?!?!?! You must be joking! Go check out "units and democracy". Dalgetti and I just went through how Communism should be changed to lose food and GAIN shield and science production. We have HUGE posts about it.

Incoming!!

I've read them. They are historically inaccurate. Soviet Communism COLLAPSED. It literally shriveled up and blew away. Soviet Communism depleted the entire Soviet gold reserve, once the world's largest. It's GONE. The Warsaw Pact dissolved, all traces of empire gone overnight. And you want to compare production now, after Soviet central planning utterly destroyed the entire country for 70 years, to it's production while it was busy exhausting it's resources? After the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the removal of Belarus, the Ukraine, and the Baltic states from the picture? The damage done is going to take a generation to fix, unfortunately.

That the country collapsed like a house of cards should show everyone the mirage that was the Russian Bear.

Science? You must be kidding. There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced. Space? Their program was far less successful than ever thought, now that Soviet archives show the massive level of resources used and the number of setbacks they had. Mir, anyone? Military? Dear Lord, please examine the burning hulks of Iraqi and Syrian equipment destroyed by the Israeli's in the eighties and the U.S. in the 90's. The East Germans in particular had to thank God Almighty they weren't ever called upon to be the front line for what was going to be M1A2 and A-10 target practice...Medicine? Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union were breeding grounds for the new resistant strains of tuberculosis. They did however have a huge smallpox and anthrax germ warfare facility. Industry? Russian industry was never able to create consumer goods, durable goods, or foodstuffs in any quantity or quality to satisfy domestic demand, much less actually EXPORT anything. Nearly all Soviet exports were of raw minerals or military equipment (much of which currently has numerous NATO created holes).

As to reduced unhappiness, it's not so much a result of bliss and euphoria as it is of police control and Russian historical culture, where self determination and liberty had never occurred.

quote: And to whoever made the post about two free units under facism, I agree. But I'd actually make it more than two. Or full support for a certain unit (similar to Fundy)

That was me. I think two is enough personally, but I could be talked into three...the other benefits make it a balanced government if you can swallow the concept of fascism personally...

Venger

Your post supports my view on Communist production. Everything in between was simply your view on the collapse and failures of Communism in Russia (which btw I completely agree on). The fact that they depleted all of their resources in 70 years SHOWS how their production dramatically increased. And none of the information was inaccurate.

You say "mir" I think "Challanger". The US and USSR both had their aviation failures. And Challanger was in 86. The Soviets had just as many nuke's (ok, if you want to be accurate - more) and more subs deployed in more places across the globe.


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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-14-2000 06:31 PM Your post supports my view on Communist production.

Hmmm...I didn't think so. How about this - military units are produced at a 20% discount under communism. Hey, that's sounds pretty good!

quote: Everything in between was simply your view on the collapse and failures of Communism in Russia (which btw I completely agree on). The fact that they depleted all of their resources in 70 years SHOWS how their production dramatically increased.

Problem is, EVERY nation experienced ridiculous growth since the advent of the production line and the automobile. GNP figures show the US smashed the USSR in that field. But, let's not quibble on that...the concept is to capture the essence of the Soviet/Communist government to give it the right balance of effects that you feel like you're playing (against) them, but in a way that neither unfairly helps or hurts you in comparison to other governments...

quote: And none of the information was inaccurate.

My quibbles:
1917 Russia was Europe's sleeping Giant and nothing more
Communism under Stalin turned them into a major industrial power house

quote: You say "mir" I think "Challanger". The US and USSR both had their aviation failures. And Challanger was in 86.

I really don't want to compare space disasters, as A) they had many more, and B) that wasn't my point. Mir wasn't a disaster, just a piece of junk.

quote: The Soviets had just as many nuke's (ok, if you want to be accurate - more) and more subs deployed in more places across the globe.

This is kinda pointless, because nuke counting get's absurd after about 100 deliverables ...

BUT...most Soviet MIRV's couldn't hit water if they fell out of a freaking boat. Every Soviet Typhoon or Yankee that sortied had a LA class on her ass - first thing that was to be done under declaration of war was to sink every Soviet submarine made. Bombers...forget it.

BUT...you can't them all, which is kinda the point! So from that perspective...

Venger

[The Joker]

I think that the Civ2 gov types should be replaced by SMACs SE. The latter is superior in every way. It should be heavily improved though.

If anyone is interested they should read the SE models from The List v2.0. They are all highly complex, but very realistic and playable.

On the Communism business I would think that communism would get a production bonus (both for units and other stuff). During WW2 the Soviets pumped out tanks at a tremendeous rate, far faster than any other civ. And that was even though a large part of their productive capabilities had been destroyed by the nazis. On the other side they should get a trade penalty, which in the real world is shown by the system's incapability to produce consumers goods, and to meet the demands of the people.

I think that it is pointless to discuss the soviets military strength compared to the USA. They were not at all as weak as Venger described. The Soviet MIG 29 was by far the best fighter of it's time. It was much better than both the F14, 15 and 16. The russians had more (and better, I think) tanks than the US, and more subs.

But no matter what both sides (and all others) would be completely destroyed if a war between them ever came.

BTW Mir wasn't at all a piece of junk. Sure, it became so after having been up there for 14 years or so, but in the first years of it's life it was highly succesful.

[Az]

Venger :
I protest . first of all as The Joker said both sides would be completely destroyed in a case of a war .

but , here they come . the inaccuracies .

you said that the Israelis blew up Soviet equipment in th 80's . the reason for that humiliating defeat lies not just in the tanks , but abount the tanks Syrian T-72's(old . old . old ) didn't stand a chance IsraEl's hot-from-the-oven in that time Merkava MBT ( proud production of the local military Industries complex))

second : ( also , very proudly ) Israel's soldiers are far better trained than Syrians.

now about this :

quote: The East Germans in particular had to thank God Almighty they weren't ever called upon to be the front line for what was going to be M1A2 and A-10 target practice.

oh really ? with a force ratio of 1:10 MBT's
(if not higher)
the soviets couldn't lose ! anyway that Abrams MBT is a nice piece of craft but dont forget : Soviets have T-90's . and keep in mind that 1:10 ratio.

and A-10's ? well I'll give you a name of a SAM model called S-300. this baby eats chumps like Warthog for breakfast . it also can take an F-117 as a treat .... :P

and yes the MiG is a better aircraft than the F-16 . it's only minus is a pretty weak Missle system , if I am not mistakin'.

and about failures in space . don't forget that "MIR" was designed for 3 years of service only. Its failures are results of poor supply , by the New regime . ( I would describe it in Civ Language as between-goverment-anarchy ) .

dont forget that the Western Democracy is feeding itself from .... 1 billion ppl living for less than a dollar a day ( as RATM video said ) . yep . that's what you call western standards ,huh ? oh maybe it's foregn corporations taking over . cheap jobs . almost a slave labor .

damn , Venger . you just don't know . if some1 lives in luxury , another person lives in poverty . yes . It's sad but it's true .

P.S. to kill some more myths in your heart, Venger :
- It doesn't always snow in Russia .
(as shown in any american movie)
- Russians don't Hit Hi-Tech equipment in order to fix it . ( as shown in Armageddon )
-Russians aren't always drunk.
-Not all Russians are Attached to the KGB .

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Enslave the enemy .
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti on 05-15-2000 03:05 PM Venger : I protest . first of all as The Joker said both sides would be completely destroyed in a case of a war .

Nuclear yes, convetional no. The Germans would take the brunt of it though...

quote: but , here they come . the inaccuracies . you said that the Israelis blew up Soviet equipment in th 80's . the reason for that humiliating defeat lies not just in the tanks , but abount the tanks Syrian T-72's(old . old . old ) didn't stand a chance IsraEl's hot-from-the-oven in that time Merkava MBT ( proud production of the local military Industries complex))

So slap an M1A1 on. The Merkava isn't all that grand unless in Mk3 form. The Israeli's actually used a whole slew of M60A3's if I'm not mistaken...The T-90 is a T-72 with prettier paint. And examine that 79-0 Syrian vs. Israeli air force count.

quote: second : ( also , very proudly ) Israel's soldiers are far better trained than Syrians.

Can't argue with that. But consider the training level of British and American front liners to Warsaw Pact forces that are exactly how dependable?

quote: now about this : oh really ? with a force ratio of 1:10 MBT's (if not higher) the soviets couldn't lose !

Of tanks likely to be lost at ridiculous rate to AT fire from enemy armor and Apache/A-10. You pity the T-72, what do you think was the most numerous tank on the German front?

quote: anyway that Abrams MBT is a nice piece of craft but dont forget : Soviets have T-90's . and keep in mind that 1:10 ratio.

I am duly unimpressed by the T-90, really a derivative of the T-72. Bad fire control, bad mobile fire, bad power to weight ratio. Now mind you, I wouldn't want to walk in front of one, but I'll ride in 70 tons of M1A2 before I wedge my ass in a T-90.

quote: and A-10's ? well I'll give you a name of a SAM model called S-300. this baby eats chumps like Warthog for breakfast . it also can take an F-117 as a treat .... :P

There are a number of S-300 designates, most designed for higher altitude interception.

In addition - forward deployment of AA units is problematic in an armored thrust as close support aircraft from NATO will be primarily operating over their own territory and the very front line, assuming a WP advance. To put AA in such advance locations make them highly vulnerable to ground attack. Also, keep in mind the near ridiculous amount of CM available especially in a compressed front, I'd be suprised if half the guided weapons from either side worked...

Note that nearly all NATO craft lost in Bosnia and Iraq were due to ye old flak.

quote: and yes the MiG is a better aircraft than the F-16 . it's only minus is a pretty weak Missle system , if I am not mistakin'.

79-0. Nuff said. Also - what's the point of building a fine aircraft if you can't arm it? AMRAAM is an excellent AA system.

quote: and about failures in space . don't forget that "MIR" was designed for 3 years of service only. Its failures are results of poor supply , by the New regime . ( I would describe it in Civ Language as between-goverment-anarchy ) .

Heh...MIR is an example of the penultimate of Soviet technology. Yikes!

quote: dont forget that the Western Democracy is feeding itself from .... 1 billion ppl living for less than a dollar a day ( as RATM video said ) . yep .

Are you referring to food? Western democracies are net exporters of food. Third world countries (including many former Soviet republics and of course nearly all Soviet client states) are net importers. Drop by Uncle Kim's place in North Korea and share a grain of rice with him.

quote: that's what you call western standards ,huh ? oh maybe it's foregn corporations taking over . cheap jobs . almost a slave labor .

Slave labor, I LOVE IT! Obviously multinational corporations are taking these people out of whatever high wage paying job they had before to make them work at $1 a day...of course, never mind what that money buys.

quote: damn , Venger . you just don't know . if some1 lives in luxury , another person lives in poverty . yes . It's sad but it's true .

Not quite. We can all be millionaires. But if we were, who'd work? Being a millionaire wouldn't be worth anything, because you'd need to pay $1000 for anyone to bother to make you a Big Mac. It's relative, just like that $1 a day paycheck. If $1 buys food for the family, isn't that the important part?

quote: P.S. to kill some more myths in your heart, Venger : - It doesn't always snow in Russia . (as shown in any american movie)

It doesn't always snow in Canada either - but would you describe Moscow as warm or cold climed?

quote: - Russians don't Hit Hi-Tech equipment in order to fix it . ( as shown in Armageddon )

****, Americans do! And by God, sometimes it works! Not that Russians have hi-tech equipment...

quote: -Russians aren't always drunk.

Alcoholism is rampant in Russian society. It's a shame.

quote: -Not all Russians are Attached to the KGB .

The KGB doesn't exist anymore. The FSB does though...

Venger

Venger - I'm sorry but I don't agree with a single thing you've said during this entire argument. I would suggest rechecking all of your "facts" and get out of your one frame americanized view. And you're quote about Russian drunks ~ take a look at America!!! For God's sake alcohol is worse here than it is In Russia. Especially when drunk driving is punishable by death!!!!!

Unless you can get someone else on your side on this thread to back you up, I'm afraid you have a very small case.

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

[Az]

Venger:
That 79-0 ratio during the 80's was because of awful training of the Syrian pilots .

hell if I am not mistakin' , in some battle the Israelis found the Egyptian Armor fleeing even before engaging battle. Israelis crushed egyptian armor at a 1:3 ratio and agree with me that the Patton is no killer and is not superb to the T-62 .


The Merkava Mk 1 was NOT a modified Patton .
Actually it's basic design hasn't changed in all designs from Mk1 to Mk3 . anyway the Mk3 is equal to the West-German Leopard ( last models ), and the British Challenger ( also the last model )

about the planes and SAMs . american SAM' lose in a sure way to the Soviet.
I just remember during the gulf war ...
Patriot SAMs " defended " us ....
I am not sure they've even hit one Warhead

....
Planes ... well . AMRAAMs are great . but I am sure that Soviets had their own missiles.
...

and haven't you checked out Soviet choppers . just don't say Hinds coz I dont mean them. chopps like .... Ka-?? I don't remember . ( ok I admit . I DONT remember ! )
or planes like the Su-25 ... ( does the same as the Warthog )

or ATGMs ... anyway ...

about ppl : When I said live in poverty I didn't mean amount of money . you know that if there is plenty of money and no goods the money value falls . Remember Post-War Germany ? Remember carts full of cash ?
well what I actually meant was ... ahh never mind coz you won't change your mind anyway .

OrangeSfwr :
give me a 5 !

Andz83 :
You still can't understand what have you started , right ?





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Enslave the enemy .

[Youngsun]

quote: . Nazism had more in common with Stalinist Communism than any other major government in Europe

Nazi German style
Private ownership:yes
Centralised economic planning:yes
Not regulated price control:yes

Soviet style
Private ownership:no
Centralised planning:yes
Not regulated price control:no

Western Europe style
Private ownership:yes
Centralised planning:no
Not regulated price contorl:yes

I see more similarities with Western style.

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists

But still managed to develop rocket and jet engine. actually Me262 would be in production line by late 1942, if Hitler did not order general halt on military research during early stage of WWII.(he thought the war would be shorter)

quote: There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced

I heard that US jet propulsion tech is one year ahead of Russia but Russian rocket tech is one year ahead of USA too.

quote: Russian industry was never able to create consumer goods, durable goods, or foodstuffs in any quantity or quality to satisfy domestic demand,

That's right and my corporation model exactly simulate this kind of situation.

quote: Mir wasn't a disaster, just a piece of junk.

But at leat only working manned space-station
and the first too. bi-planes are pieces of junk compare to modern day air planes but their historic significance as pioneers never be underestimated.

quote: The Soviet MIG 29 was by far the best fighter of it's time

what about Su27 and Su35? they too are superb indeed.

quote: Slave labor, I LOVE IT!

You must be joking!

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited May 16, 2000).]

[The Joker]

My god you people know a lot about weapons!

I must agree with ... well virtually everybody on this thread, that Venger is showing a classic examble of ignorance, caused by american anticommunist propaganda. What a shame!

The USSR had it's succeses and failures and so did the US. USSR, for instance, had a far better health sector than the US ever had. Although this is all in the past...

And it is VERY true that a very important reason that we in the west can have our current lifestyle is the exploitation of workers in third world countries (a communist would say it was the only reason!!).

I do not quite understand the reason for mentioning the millionaires thing. The concept is called inflation, and avoiding it is what is propably causing Greenspan to raise the interest rate soon.

[Az]

The Joker :

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 05-16-2000 08:06 AM My god you people know a lot about weapons!

So playing all those Aero-Sims did pay off in the long turn after all ...hmmp

quote: I must agree with ... well virtually everybody on this thread, that Venger is showing a classic examble of ignorance, caused by american anticommunist propaganda. What a shame!

too much movies from the 70's . or something.

quote: The USSR had it's succeses and failures and so did the US. USSR, for instance, had a far better health sector than the US ever had. Although this is all in the past...

It was free . not as good but it was free ! to everyone !

quote: And it is VERY true that a very important reason that we in the west can have our current lifestyle is the exploitation of workers in third world countries (a communist would say it was the only reason!!).

I am not a communist but I'll say this any way : it's not the only reason . I don't know what is the reason .
the fact is that Communism brought the Russia a Giant Leap ahead . It virtually saved it from getting stuck in the 19th century . Stalin ( believe me I hate this guy . He put some of my ancestors to jail .)
was the one to introduce literacy to everyone.

quote: I do not quite understand the reason for mentioning the millionaires thing. The concept is called inflation, and avoiding it is what is propably causing Greenspan to raise the interest rate soon.

Venger just didn't get at all my poverty concept .


Youngsun:
I loved your Corporations Idea ! pics incuded ! wow . what an investment .


everybody :
I wanted to post a whole a new military model ... but the thing got stuck . 3 times ! and I forgot to make saves ... that model was so great . but I got frustrated of writing it all over again.

I could use some help . could you plz contact me ?

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Enslave the enemy .
[This message has been edited by Dalgetti (edited May 16, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-15-2000 10:49 PM Venger - I'm sorry but I don't agree with a single thing you've said during this entire argument.

Certain things don't require agreement, but rather are factual. Look them up.

quote: I would suggest rechecking all of your "facts" and get out of your one frame americanized view. And you're quote about Russian drunks ~ take a look at America!!!

I'm sorry if my historical and factual observations don't agree with your political ideologies.

Want some facts?

Russians consume more alcohol than any other people in the world.

Russians consume twice the amount of alcohol as Americans per capita.

Suicide and Alcoholism are leading causes of death - the average life expectancy for the Russian male is 56 years (mid 90's figure).

One of the highest non-natural causes of death in Moscow during the winter is drunks freezing to death.

Want more? Hit any search engine and find links galore. The ncpa web site has some good quick articles on Russia through the 90's.

quote: For God's sake alcohol is worse here than it is In Russia. Especially when drunk driving is punishable by death!!!!!

Factually untrue. How can you make such statements? You have absolutely no basis in fact to make them!

quote: Unless you can get someone else on your side on this thread to back you up, I'm afraid you have a very small case.

Why not do some research on the topic? I assure you even the lightest amount of looking will reveal your errors.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 05-16-2000 08:06 AM My god you people know a lot about weapons! I must agree with ... well virtually everybody on this thread, that Venger is showing a classic examble of ignorance, caused by american anticommunist propaganda. What a shame!

Yep, all propaganda. If only I lived in Moscow during the times of Pravda, I could have read uncensored, balanced news about world and political events, helping me to shape more favorable opinions of the Soviet Union and their glorious successes.

quote: The USSR had it's succeses and failures and so did the US. USSR, for instance, had a far better health sector than the US ever had. Although this is all in the past...

COUGH HACK...Oh my GOD. I can't believe anyone had the balls to claim the Soviet Union had a far better health sector than the United States. Check infant mortality rates, life expectancy, any figure you want. Russian sanitoriums are breeding resistant strains of tuberculosis and other communicable diseases.

And you want to distance Russia's current situation from Communism? What do you think ruined the country in the first place?

quote: And it is VERY true that a very important reason that we in the west can have our current lifestyle is the exploitation of workers in third world countries (a communist would say it was the only reason!!).

Sheer, pure, and utter nonsense. What part of our lifestyle is subsidized by third world workers? Agriculture? No, domestic production feeds the U.S. Technology? No, domestic and developed countries produce that. Heavy industry? No, automobile, aircraft, shipbuilding, production is domestic, don't try and sell me on the maquiladoras either. Light industry? No, forging and other medium level industries are mostly domestic and require extensive infrastructure. Textiles? Well, China produces a hell of alot of T-shirts. Yep, that's it, the entire U.S. lifestyle built on the backs of Chinese prison workers who make stuffed Pokemon toys and T-shirts.

quote: I do not quite understand the reason for mentioning the millionaires thing. The concept is called inflation, and avoiding it is what is propably causing Greenspan to raise the interest rate soon.

The point is that you will always have varied social strata. You cannot have a nation of the wealthy. You will always have rich and poor. The difference is in what we consider "poor". If a poor person has a car, TV, and three squares, then I would offer that's a far cry better than any other time in history.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti on 05-16-2000 06:46 AM Venger: That 79-0 ratio during the 80's was because of awful training of the Syrian pilots.

Who trained them?

quote: The Merkava Mk 1 was NOT a modified Patton . Actually it's basic design hasn't changed in all designs from Mk1 to Mk3 .

Unless you consider the move from the 105 to 120 significant, which I absolutely do.

quote: anyway the Mk3 is equal to the West-German Leopard ( last models ), and the British Challenger ( also the last model )

The Merkava is a fine tank, in Mk3 form.

quote: about the planes and SAMs . american SAM' lose in a sure way to the Soviet. I just remember during the gulf war ... Patriot SAMs " defended " us .... I am not sure they've even hit one Warhead

They hit numerous warheads (scuds), but that didn't necessarily stop the inbound weapon from causing damage. The patriot was never designed for this regardless...

quote: Planes ... well . AMRAAMs are great . but I am sure that Soviets had their own missiles.

They did, which relied on Russian electronics and production techniques. Seeing as we can't go back and start a shooting war in 1985, it's hard to know exactly how it would have worked. Although I maintain we can see where the equipments been used and get a good idea...

quote: and haven't you checked out Soviet choppers . just don't say Hinds coz I dont mean them. chopps like .... Ka-?? I don't remember . ( ok I admit . I DONT remember ! ) or planes like the Su-25 ... ( does the same as the Warthog )

Maybe you refer to the Hind?

quote: about ppl : When I said live in poverty I didn't mean amount of money . you know that if there is plenty of money and no goods the money value falls . Remember Post-War Germany ? Remember carts full of cash ? well what I actually meant was ... ahh never mind coz you won't change your mind anyway .

Change my mind about what? I understand the value of money, I do not understand what you are trying to say however.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Youngsun said: I see more similarities with Western style.

You listed all of three items. Let's include:

Centralized power.
Nationalization of industry.
One party system.
Dictator.
Anti-semitism.
Intolerance of political dissent.
Purges of military ranks.

If you think Nazi Germany in any way resembled Belgium or England more than the Soviet Union, you are way off base. Why do you think Stalin was Hitler's lap dog? They were damn near mirror image governments.

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists But still managed to develop rocket and jet engine. actually Me262 would be in production line by late 1942, if Hitler did not order general halt on military research during early stage of WWII.(he thought the war would be shorter)

He continued work on the V series as well as submarine development and atomic bomb work. Hitler had finite resources to devote to said production - what would have not been built had he moved to Me262 jet production, which may not even have been feasible come 1943? Seeing as the last one (atomic) was the biggie, regardless of the ME262, they were finished.

quote: There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced I heard that US jet propulsion tech is one year ahead of Russia but Russian rocket tech is one year ahead of USA too.

I think if we want real evidence, let's see what country sells more commercial airline jets...

quote: That's right and my corporation model exactly simulate this kind of situation.

I have not seen that model, is it listed in this or another thread?

quote: Mir wasn't a disaster, just a piece of junk. But at leat only working manned space-station and the first too. bi-planes are pieces of junk compare to modern day air planes but their historic significance as pioneers never be underestimated.

Point taken, it may be junk, but it is historical junk!

quote: The Soviet MIG 29 was by far the best fighter of it's time what about Su27 and Su35? they too are superb indeed.

Argh...hack...cough... What is the current total AA kill count of all Mig-29's ever produced? I am fairly sure that Mig-29's have ZERO air combat kills. Now, compare that to any front line NATO fighter. God, even the Mirage (Drek!) fighters have a higher count (I believe the Mirage scored a kill or two in the Gulf as flown by either Qatar or Oman).

quote: Slave labor, I LOVE IT! You must be joking!

I meant that as in "Slave labor, I love how ridiculous that is". I certainly do not advocate slavery. Well, maybe love slavery...

Venger

[Youngsun]

quote: If you think Nazi Germany in any way resembled Belgium or England more than the Soviet Union, you are way off base. Why do you think Stalin was Hitler's lap dog? They were damn near mirror image governments.

I should have made it clear that I said them on purely economic sense and if you include other aspects then there is no point of arguing. Anyway its my fault that I did not specify it and did not understand what you were up to on the previous post.

quote: He continued work on the V series as well as submarine development and atomic bomb work. Hitler had finite resources to devote to said production - what would have not been built had he moved to Me262 jet production, which may not even have been feasible come 1943? Seeing as the last one (atomic) was the biggie, regardless of the ME262, they were finished.

What happened to your previous statement? Are you defending this or not?

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists

and your last statement itself contradicting your previous point.

quote: I think if we want real evidence, let's see what country sells more commercial airline jets...

You not saying whether you agree or disagree.... and have a look who get more contracts for launching a satelite(I heard it's Russia)

quote: I have not seen that model, is it listed in this or another thread?

It's on another thread named "Corporations".

quote: Point taken, it may be junk, but it is historical junk!

Only future generations who will live in the World which has really advanced space-tations compared to Mir have the right to say "it's a piece of junk" not you! How arrogant! Can you imagine People in early 20th century saying Wright brothers' plane is piece of junk because they think there will be better airplane which will be built later on? Keep in mind you are one of the contemporaries with Mir.

quote: Argh...hack...cough... What is the current total AA kill count of all Mig-29's ever produced? I am fairly sure that Mig-29's have ZERO air combat kills. Now, compare that to any front line NATO fighter. God, even the Mirage (Drek!) fighters have a higher count (I believe the Mirage scored a kill or two in the Gulf as flown by either Qatar or Oman).

First of all, I did not say Mig-29 things.(Joker defend this please) You did not comment on Su27 nor Su35. You always bring "killing ratio" thing but that's not all which make good weapon. Most of all, USSR had different military doctrine than USA and her allies. Whereas the latters were highly concerned on casualties taken every time just like you, USSR concerned to have most cost-effective weapons regardless of human casualties. And for Russian governmnent's point of view, US and allies style armours and figthers are not fit into this categories so they were treated like "BAD WEAPONS" & "TOO EXPENSIVE" compared to what they can do. If killing ratio thing is the only important thing that we have to consider for actual battlefield then why not build SUPER-DUPER tanks or SUPER-HYPER fighters regardless of their cost? SU27 and SU35 as far as I know the most cost-effective intercepters in the World. Remember total war and limited conflict are completely different things and USSR knew damn good about this.

quote: I meant that as in "Slave labor, I love how ridiculous that is". I certainly do not advocate slavery. Well, maybe love slavery...

your first post did not give that impression and I rather say it's still highly provocative.

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited May 17, 2000).]

[Az]

Venger :
why do you say stuff and then take back your words ? 'cause I can't understand where does your wind blow if I can say it this way .


and yes . the Russian Aircraft are much more cost-effective than the US ones . but actual
human losses are pretty lowered with the invention of the ejection seat.

quote: God, even the Mirage (Drek!) fighters have a higher count (I believe the Mirage scored a kill or two in the Gulf as flown by either Qatar or Oman).

hmmp. about mirages . dont forget the 6 day war ( by Israel ) they were the main fighting force . they've scored ..... 400 kills versus the Egyptians ? but that doesn't count coz the Egyptians' Aviation was all blown on the runway .

everybody check out my New military Unit model . ( posted on a separate thread )

P.S.
hey Venger . you know maybe you R no slaver after all ...

[The Joker]

I refuse to comment on all the small technical facts discussed here. Compared to you guys I seem to have absolutely no knowledge about weapons. I do, however, have knowledge about economics and such:

First of all I have never said that the USSR didn't use propaganda. They did. But the thing that most americans don't realize is, that the US used just as much propaganda! I have seen some american propaganda movies from the 50s, and they're just as terrible as the antisemite nazi propaganda. The movies is about how the russians are really evil, and that communism is invented by the devil and such. On top of this there is a movie intented for kids, in which they are shown how to avoid getting killed in a nuclear war. All they have to do, it seems, is to get down on the ground and lie there. The movie even had a very happy song called "Duck and Cover"!

Second I do not want to explain every economic aspect of the exploitation of the third world, so I'll try to give a short overview. As the third world countries are undeveloped they are primarily exporting raw materials. And by this I do not just mean bananas. Most of the raw metal, oil and other to the western production very important raw materials are actually imported from third world countries. This, of cause, doesn't have much future, so they are trying to start out some more hightech (or even middle or low tech) companies, to get other stuff to export. Unfortunately for them the western world doesn't want them to export anything but raw materials, as this gives the west acces to cheap raw materials and it stops the third world countries from competing with the west in areas where the west produce stuff.

To stop the third world from taking advantage of their cheap labour and produce hightech goods that could very easily compete with the goods produced in the west, the west has made a special differentiated duty. When importing goods from the third world the duty gets higher the more fabricated the good is. So when exporting raw materials there is very little duty, and when exporting high tech stuff the duty is very, very high.

This is one of the fundamental parts of the exploitation of the third world. This way the west can make sure that the third world continues to export very cheap raw materials to the west, so the west can export expensive manufactured goods (primarily weapons and luxury items to the elite, as the average population in these countries can't afford much).

On top of this the western coorporations, which are the main producers of these raw materials in the third world, can continue to pay the workers a very low salary, and take all the profit back to their homeland in the west. Most of the investments that the coorporations make are also in the western world, as it is in the coorporation's interest to keep the third world countries undeveloped, so that they can continue to pay their workers a low salary.

All this combined means that the third world countries get very little investment, and therefor very little development. And this is because of the western world.

To finish off I must state that I am not a communist, nor a socialist. I am, however, aware of the facts of the current economic situation.

Guess that didn't end up very short after all...

[Az]

youngsun:

quote: and have a look who get more contracts for launching a satelite(I heard it's Russia)

yep . that's true . and who's next ? china !
but that's not necessarily a thing for communists to be proud of .

quote: originnaly mentioned in SouthPark Hey look , this guy is a communist!

and then they kicked his -S- .
that means something, right ?

quote: originnaly posted by The Joker First of all I have never said that the USSR didn't use propaganda. They did. But the thing that most americans don't realize is, that the US used just as much propaganda! I have seen some american propaganda movies from the 50s, and they're just as terrible as the antisemite nazi propaganda. The movies is about how the russians are really evil, and that communism is invented by the devil and such. On top of this there is a movie intented for kids, in which they are shown how to avoid getting killed in a nuclear war. All they have to do, it seems, is to get down on the ground and lie there. The movie even had a very happy song called "Duck and Cover"

The Joker :
I remember one movie " what will happen if communism will occur tomorrow " , or something like that . It shows some ppl looking like Soviet Party executives busting into Radio stations , printed press buildings etc .. and then soldiers come to ppl's houses and make them march at the 1st of May ( Intl. Workers' day ) parade....

Also ppl were put in jail just because they were communists . it has been said that it isn't worth the risk. every communist is a spy . Is that reasonable ?

The termine for that was ... McCarthyism or something like that right ?

about economics :

The things you said were the same things I wanted to say .

P.S. btw , in current tech. levels if all ppl would live the western life style the Planet's eco-system. but Venger just don't say that the Corporations give a damn about ecology.

P.P.S. and the last , Venger : do you really think that the West would manage to build that new Space Station without both Russian Modules ( soviet scetches ) or Russian Long-Term-Personnel-space-dwelling techs and experience ( also soviet ) ?
Half of that station is Russian !

------------------
Prepare to Land !

[Venger]

quote: I should have made it clear that I said them on purely economic sense and if you include other aspects then there is no point of arguing. Anyway its my fault that I did not specify it and did not understand what you were up to on the previous post.

No prob...

quote: He continued work on the V series... What happened to your previous statement? Are you defending this or not?

I'm stating that alot of research did continue, including the most important research, the atomic bomb, the race for which they lost due in large part to the loss of Jewish scientists.

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists and your last statement itself contradicting your previous point.

Huh?

quote: I think if we want real evidence, let's see what country sells more commercial airline jets... You not saying whether you agree or disagree.... and have a look who get more contracts for launching a satelite(I heard it's Russia)

Sure, who has cheap ass boosters, an empty flight schedule, and needs hard currency? I would offer that as a more likely explanation for that. What country is developing deep space exploration tools, single stage oribiters, I mean the real meat of the next step for mankind? Hubble, X-33 anyone?

quote: Point taken, it may be junk, but it is historical junk! Only future generations who will live in the World which has really advanced space-tations compared to Mir have the right to say "it's a piece of junk" not you! How arrogant! Can you imagine People in early 20th century saying Wright brothers' plane is piece of junk because they think there will be better airplane which will be built later on? Keep in mind you are one of the contemporaries with Mir.

Dude, junk is junk. They are fixing this thing with SUPER GLUE now. Super glue. Mir wasn't even the first long term occupancy space station. I'll take 100 shuttle missions over floating Mir space debris any day. That said, Mir is still an important accomplishment. Still junk though...

quote: First of all, I did not say Mig-29 things.(Joker defend this please) You did not comment on Su27 nor Su35.

Same basic plane. Russian military expenditures are such that damn near every "new" piece of Russian military equipment is a knockoff of an old one. Look, it's a new Su-37! Or is that a 35? Or a 33? Or a 30? Or a 27?

quote: You always bring "killing ratio" thing but that's not all which make good weapon. Most of all, USSR had different military doctrine than USA and her allies. Whereas the latters were highly concerned on casualties taken every time just like you, USSR concerned to have most cost-effective weapons regardless of human casualties.

Soviet emphasis was on numerical superiority due to qualitative inferiority.

quote: SU27 and SU35 as far as I know the most cost-effective intercepters in the World.

I'd say landing your plane is more cost effective than being shot down. What's the point in sending up cheap plane after cheap plane if they are going to get swatted?

quote: Remember total war and limited conflict are completely different things and USSR knew damn good about this.

They massed as the only means of victory. They were never goign to match NATO technology or command and control technology in the air, on the sea, or in the ocean. Best example of this - compare an Ticonderoga Aegis cruiser to a Kara class. The Soviet ship is littered with delivery systems. The AEGIS looks bare, using the VLS. It's versatility makes it the more powerful ship though. Not to mention the fire control system...

quote: Your first post did not give that impression and I rather say it's still highly provocative.

"I Love It" is part of the vernacular, you can either accept that or not. I stated bald faced that it was in no way advocating slavery of any kind. That you continue to call it "provocative" seems to indicate you'd rather make false assumptions rather than accept on it's face what it means.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 05-17-2000 09:10 AM First of all I have never said that the USSR didn't use propaganda. They did. But the thing that most americans don't realize is, that the US used just as much propaganda!

I'll take a few John Ford films with my free press over Pravda any day of the week.

quote: As the third world countries are undeveloped they are primarily exporting raw materials. And by this I do not just mean bananas. Most of the raw metal, oil and other to the western production very important raw materials are actually imported from third world countries.

Yeah, like those damn third world living Saudi's - we are taking them to the cleaners! Every time I filler'up at $1.70 a gallon I think of how I'm standing on the backs of those oppressed sheikdoms...

quote: This, of cause, doesn't have much future, so they are trying to start out some more hightech (or even middle or low tech) companies, to get other stuff to export. Unfortunately for them the western world doesn't want them to export anything but raw materials, as this gives the west acces to cheap raw materials and it stops the third world countries from competing with the west in areas where the west produce stuff.

That's peculairly incorrect. We don't want to import their tech? We are importing their PEOPLE for Christ's sake. What salient product does India have to offer the world but 1 billion Indians? Rattle off the net exporters of raw materials to the U.S. who we are abusing. Don't just say we do it, LIST SOME and what we are stealing from them.

quote: To stop the third world from taking advantage of their cheap labour and produce hightech goods that could very easily compete with the goods produced in the west, the west has made a special differentiated duty. When importing goods from the third world the duty gets higher the more fabricated the good is. So when exporting raw materials there is very little duty, and when exporting high tech stuff the duty is very, very high.

I am stunned. Do you think there is an internet startup in Rwanda that can't get going because the US is taxing their product? That's nuts. Do you know what the U.S. imports mostly? Oil. Cars. Electronics. Textiles. From OPEC, Canada, Japan, Mexico.

quote: This is one of the fundamental parts of the exploitation of the third world.

Did you pick up a pamphlet on the UC Berkley campus and read this stuff?

quote: This way the west can make sure that the third world continues to export very cheap raw materials to the west, so the west can export expensive manufactured goods (primarily weapons and luxury items to the elite, as the average population in these countries can't afford much).

Do you have any RAW DATA? I thought we wanted their cheap labor, not their cheap raw materials. Like copper. Oh wait, we produce the largest amount of copper in the world (with Chile). Aluminum. Nope, us again. Keep going. Those raw materials we DO import we get from those third worlders in Canada. And from South Africa, another third world nation... Look it up. The US Geological Society has tons of data. I've read it.

quote: On top of this the western coorporations, which are the main producers of these raw materials in the third world, can continue to pay the workers a very low salary, and take all the profit back to their homeland in the west. Most of the investments that the coorporations make are also in the western world, as it is in the coorporation's interest to keep the third world countries undeveloped, so that they can continue to pay their workers a low salary.

Just...not...true...minerals have spot market prices, they are not bought for pennies. A great deal of mining is nationalized in developing countries. The one's getting rich are those in power. See Zaire (now the Congo again), Nigeria, etc...

quote: All this combined means that the third world countries get very little investment, and therefor very little development. And this is because of the western world.

Yep, we're just The Man trying to keep the brothers down...we wan't to keep Zaire poor. Because that way they can't buy any of our value added goods. See, an information and service economy only has value added goods. We don't sell raw materials, just finished materials and services. This way, if we buy chromium from Zaire for 10 cents and pay their laborers 10 cents, we can use it to produce items we can't sell to anyone but ourselves. Nuts.

quote: To finish off I must state that I am not a communist, nor a socialist. I am, however, aware of the facts of the current economic situation.

I'd say not. The economy is evolving into an information economy, where no one gives a rats ass about the Bauxite price in Uzbekistan.

quote: Guess that didn't end up very short after all...

They never do...mine especially...

Venger

[korn469]

my question is that in civ3 could a communistic system ever work?

lets say that each time you play civ3 on an earth map it is like shaping an alternate reality...so the question is could communism work?

when i say communism i mean marxist economic theory and soviet econopolitical practice

lets say that in england in the 1890s that the communist party won control of the government using the democratic process (Marx said that this was possible) and instead of the politburo we have the british parliment trying to make economic policy using Marx's theory's as a guide (i am assuming popular support for the communist as long as they don't demolish the economy...rule by performance not police) so how could you describe that scenario using civ2/SMAC concepts?

or what if by some very odd occurance einstein, fermi, and oppenhiemer(sp?) had of all died at birth and the atomic bomb was never discovered but WWII still took place...then how would a late 1940s conventional war in europe between the US and the USSR have shaped up (allied and satellites included) could the commies have killed the daytraders?

or what if the Soviets had of been able to get all of their missles in cuba operational and krushchev had of traded the missles for west berlin at an extream loss of face for the americans, could that have changed the tide of the cold war?

why did the Soviet system fail so bad? could those negative effects be modeled in civ3? were there any positives to the Soviet system? could those effects be modeled in civ3? could those positive and negative effects be modeled in a way that encourages game balance while still be fairly true to history?

those are questions i would like to see answered

korn469

[Youngsun]

Venger your argument style is pointless and "word to word" not "point to point". See the forest not the trees pal.

Your very first statement:

quote: Germany never recovered from the loss of Jewish scientists

then you said:

quote: He continued work on the V series as well as submarine development and atomic bomb work. Hitler had finite resources to devote to said production - what would have not been built had he moved to Me262 jet production, which may not even have been feasible come 1943? Seeing as the last one (atomic) was the biggie, regardless of the ME262, they were finished

and then:

quote: I'm stating that alot of research did continue, including the most important research, the atomic bomb, the race for which they lost due in large part to the loss of Jewish scientists.

Only Atomic bomb I say! Was Germany defeated because of Atomic bomb? NO. Germany lost the war because of Hitler's stupidity and stubborn interference. Hitler's halt order on military research made all the necessary front line weaponry less-developed during very crucial period and many strategists focus on these as major fact for Germany's defeat not the loss of Jewish scientists! So what's the point of saying "Germany never recovered"?

Also you said:

quote: There is not a single field where Soviet science was advanced

So I said:

quote: I heard that US jet propulsion tech is one year ahead of Russia but Russian rocket tech is one year ahead of USA too

I proved that your previous statement is wrong but you replied with these:

quote: Sure, who has cheap ass boosters, an empty flight schedule, and needs hard currency? I would offer that as a more likely explanation for that. What country is developing deep space exploration tools, single stage oribiters, I mean the real meat of the next step for mankind? Hubble, X-33 anyone?

That's means you are admitting you were wrong with your first statement and Why are you bringing something new I never pointed out?

quote: Dude, junk is junk. They are fixing this thing with SUPER GLUE now. Super glue. Mir wasn't even the first long term occupancy space station. I'll take 100 shuttle missions over floating Mir space debris any day. That said, Mir is still an important accomplishment. Still junk though...

That's your definition of "junk". So do you have much junk around you?

quote: Same basic plane. Russian military expenditures are such that damn near every "new" piece of Russian military equipment is a knockoff of an old one. Look, it's a new Su-37! Or is that a 35? Or a 33? Or a 30? Or a 27?

Now you are showing your lack of knowledge about wepons. Confused?

Mig21 short-range fighter
Mig23 fighter
Mig25 reconnaisance fighter
Mig27 fighter/bomber
Mig29 interceptor
Mig31 long-range interceptor
Su25 Attacker
Su27 interceptor
Su35 interceptor

And it is well known Su35 is far better than F15. Also you failed to notice what Dalgetii was tyring to say which was "Ka-50 attack helicopter" and said Mi24 Hind? confused?

Mi-24 Hind
Mi-28 Havoc
Ka-50 (don't remember)

I heard AH64 series are no match for Ka-50.

quote: Soviet emphasis was on numerical superiority due to qualitative inferiority

Now you see there is no point of bringing "killing ratio" since USSR and USA have different military doctrine.

quote: I'd say landing your plane is more cost effective than being shot down. What's the point in sending up cheap plane after cheap plane if they are going to get swatted?

Who said Su27 and Su35 would be swatted against their US counterparts? or you just made that up without any hard evidence. If you are up to F22(too expensive)maybe but not with those F-16,F-15 and F-18.

quote: They massed as the only means of victory. They were never goign to match NATO technology or command and control technology

Again, I said USSR understood "total war" very well then you are bringing up new things which I would never disagree.

quote: "I Love It" is part of the vernacular, you can either accept that or not. I stated bald faced that it was in no way advocating slavery of any kind. That you continue to call it "provocative" seems to indicate you'd rather make false assumptions rather than accept on it's face what it means.

How convenient! be responsible with what you state.Don't just make some sort of escape route for every time for what you say.

[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited May 18, 2000).]

[Grier]

The most important thing in Civ3 is that the governments be balanced, with each having advantages and disadvatages. Otherwise no-one would ever pick the disadvantged form of government.

Ok so here are my ideas for the advantages/disadvantages of various governments;

Dictatorship:
Very high stability, low crime, cheap military,
low trade, low science, low diplomacy, low production.

Monarchy:
High stability, med crime, average military,
high trade, low science, high diplomacy, medium production.

Communism:
Medium stability, low crime, cheap military,
low trade, medium science, medium diplomacy, high production.

Democracy:
Low stability, high crime, expensive military,
very high trade, high science, high diplomacy, high production.

NOTE: Stability represents how stable a form of government is at its inception, all governments would grow more stable over time.