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Old May 27, 2000, 23:54   #121
Ubergeek
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and I challenge your life experience.

"I challenge your life experience"?

What the hell does that mean? Does it mean anything? And even if it does mean something, how can a 15-year old challenge ANYBODY'S life experience?

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Old May 28, 2000, 00:03   #122
S. Kroeze
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Dear Andz83,

I hope you will accept my humble apoligies for posting in your thread and introducing the topics of infant mortality, life expectancy and literacy rates in 1900, 1950 and 1980. I am really sorry.

Just one question: do you know a more effective way to determine the efficiency of a given economic or political system in a verifiable and objective way?

Sincere regards,

S.Kroeze
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Old May 28, 2000, 04:27   #123
Marcel I
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Sorry Andz,

I think we just got carried away
My opinion on what kind of governments should appear in Civ3:
A SE model would be more realistic and flexible. I would vote for that.
I try to give a summarization of my thoughts on the subject.

Basically I think there are four ways government can be organised politically:
 Dictatorship: speaks for itself. One person takes power on his own account.
 Oligarchy: A group of people take power on their own account
 Representative democracy: A group of people get a mandate to power by general election.
 Democracy: All people can vote directly on issues more or less important.

There are three ways production and trade can be organized:
 Planned: A goverment directs the efforts where they think they are needed
 Free market: Private companies direct their efforts where they think they are most profitable
 Public Private Partnership: A hybrid form of the former two.

Your goverment is a combination of the two groups. The second group will only be necessary after the discovery of industrialisation. That was the starting point for a accumulation of means of production and that gave relevance to the free-market or planned discussion.
IMHO there is no real need in Civ 3 for SE choices as “green” or “police state”. Those are the consequense of govermentpolicies and should be thought of in budget terms not as a choice.

Translated to the governmenttypes of Civ1 and Civ2 I think you would get something like this
 Despotism is rudimentory dictatorship and can only work in very small Civilisations. A dictator can’t be everywhere at once.
 In Monarchy the king was supported by his vasals. In fact part of his power was transfered to them, I think it fits in the category oligarchy.
 Republic would be oligarchy with free market
 Fascism Dictatorship with PPP
 Soviet Communism Oligarchy with planned.

I like to hear you people come up with some more and better suggestions.



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Old May 28, 2000, 10:28   #124
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Soviet Communism - Planned, Dictatorship. Not Oligarchy. (IMHO)

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[This message has been edited by OrangeSfwr (edited May 28, 2000).]
 
Old May 29, 2000, 02:56   #125
Tiberius
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Dear Anz83,

I hope you forgive us because this discussion turned into an (almost) wrong way. I said almost because we were talking about the represantation of communism in CIV3, which in not that far from your starting point.
However, because some of the previous posts are involving me directly, I think I have the right to answer them. I'll try to be short and I hope this is the last time I'm doing this.

The Joker
You said my statement that a communist country can't be democratic is false. So far, I didn't see any democratic communist country. If you know one, please tell me.
About Orwell: HA HA HA. Isn't interesting? A communist man, describing in his book the latest days of capitalism, which in reality looked more like the latest days of communism! HA-HA-HA.

Marcel I
You have perfectly right. Communism didn't work. That's a historical fact now. The only question is if any kind of communism would work ? And, what kind of communism should be in CIV3: the one which all of us know, or the theoretical one, which some people love, others hate, but nobody knows if it can work in the real life. (I personally think it can't).
And when you say that "modern democratic countries put more of Marx ideas in praktice than Communist countries anywhere in the world ever did" you're again perfectly right.

PrinceOfWeasels

First of all, what is this Tibby-tabby, you little peace of ...?
I DON'T PERMIT YOU TO MAKE JOKES WITH MY NAME, GOT IT?
quote:

I refuse to believe, no matter what you could EVER tell me, that pure, right, strong human emotion could be overcome by money.

What do you think, if I am anti-communist than I don't have emotions, or what? Am I monster, that are you saying? Didn't I have the right to believe in something else? That is what communism says? You're with us or against us?

quote:

I can realize the type of conditioning and propaganda that the US has done to you
I was mutilated by capitalism ? Are you insane? All of my life I heard ONLY COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA. And don't try to demonstrate to me that communism as it was in eastern Europe doesn't have anything in common with real communism. The idealogical basis is the same. I SAW it.

What do you think, that I don't want a better life for my family, the entire humanity, and, if you allow me, for myself? I want a better society, but I'm sure that NOT communism is the sollution. If you think that in communism won't be anymore bad, greed, evil persons, then I just can say: grow up, kid. It's not about communism or democracy. It's about human nature.




[This message has been edited by Tiberius (edited May 29, 2000).]
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Old May 29, 2000, 09:14   #126
The Joker
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Ok, I'm back.

First of all I would like to say that I am currently working on a concept to end the era of Social Engineering and begin the glorious new regime of it's successor: Social Interaction. My system includes a workable way to interact with your people, and let's them have a mind of their own. I like the way it seems to be working out, but it is not yet ready for the world to see. I think I will be done with it in a few days (depending on how much time I will have to finish it in).

Now for something a little more down to earth:

Prince:

SE is short for Social Engineering. This is the replacement for Civs government types that is used in Alpha Centauri. It means that in stead of Civs governments you are now choosing the way your society works via some categories. These are: Government, Economics, Values and Future society. The first, Government, is about who is controlling your society and how it is done. The options are: Democracy, Police State and Fundamentalism. The options in Economics are: Free Market, Planned and Green Economics. The Values options are: Power, Knowledge and Wealth. The Future Society is some stuff you can choose only far into the future, and so it is not relevant in Civ3 terms. The options here are: Eudaimonia, Thought control and... what is the last one? Damn, I can't remember. But it includes that machines is now doing all the work.

The great advantage with SE compared to the Civ governments is, that you can now choose different combinations of these categories. This means that you can now have democratic communism, or a police state with a free market and so forth.


Orange:

quote:


Yes I realize that Democracy has taken on those last two definitions in today's society. I used Direct Democracy for my point, but I can still argue - how can you call Greece democratic? They had Slaves, same with the US and many other countries about a century back. It's really a republic based form of government.

Today, we have billion dollar lobbyist groups who run our government, not the people. Representative government is simply a GAME for the rich and powerful. If we worked more on a direct representation government than the people would be represented better. But as long as we use this trustee-representative system in the US, we will always be a Democratic Republic.



I agree that the representative democracy is not at all perfect. But the direct democracy has it's great flaws too. I think that only when the people have become more intelligent and are able to think for themselves and not just be controlled by the media will direct democracy be possible. I hope the day will come.

quote:


So yes I see your point, but it still doesn't negate the fact that the tax on Gas is so high because of the high taxes a socialist system brings.
[quote]

But still, Sweeden is not socialist. Socialism means the state is taking over production, which is not happening in Sweden. Like I said, Sweden is what you could call a social capitalist system, which is the system that I like best. It offers the economic bonuses of capitalism without it's negative social effects on the lowest class (meaning that there are no homeless people in Skandinavia).

[quote]
BTW: does anyone know - what's the Denmark economy like?



Ehhhh, I think I would . It is like Sweden's.

quote:


Basically for Communism you need perfect people who always want to do what is right and never complain and always have a smile on their face, never upset. Basically - you need the infinitely stupid.



I strongly disagree. In communism you just need the infinitely good, who always think about the common good and never themselves. Communism would work best if people were intelligent, so there's no need for stupid people there. Capitalism need the people that are infinitely selfish, as the system is based on that if everybody does what is best for themselves it will end up being best for everybody.


Venger:

quote:


Pro-American literature? This book is based nearly entirely on declassified Soviet documents!!! If this is going to degenerate into "that's just American propaganda", let's all save ourselves the time...



Ok. I am sorry. I really am. I had no idea it was a "real" book. The title just sounded a little "hey look what the bad russians has done to us" like. I am sorry. But still, I am sure that the US spyed on the Soviets too. The main difference is, that the US secret documents haven't been declassified yet...

quote:


Poll taxes and literacy tests were obstacles to black voting - the poor and illiterate were often black. So - when those were outlawed, did we then become a democracy in your eyes?



Sure! Of cause, if I was to really annoy you I could say that no american president has ever been elected without getting millions of $ to the campaign from wealthy people and the coorporations, thus seing after their interests, that the "free" media are all privately owned and financed by advertisers, so the media coorporations and the advertisers gets a huge power, and are of cause not interested in hurting themselves, the money, so that anticapitalistic viewpoints are pretty unlikely to be shown in the media, that the media are all trying to get as many viewers as possible, so they all just show what the people like and never try to approach things from another than the most popular viewpoint and such things. But as this would be pushing things to far I will not.

quote:


He doesn't consider the Kurds his own people.



What a completely pointless comment!

quote:


I would see them worlds apart. Saddam is still a piece of **** however...



Well, that is where we are different.

quote:


A majority huh? In which country in particular? The Phillipines? Nope. Many small nations had communist guerilla groups which were Soviet sponsored, and against which the US government fought by supporting governments felt better autocratic than communist.



Many places in South America. The few free elections that has been there, and where the US supported military aren't just blocking everything has shown a great support to various socialists.

About the third world business:

We can both see that we will never agree on this. Scientists has spent years researching the matter, and they still reach different conclusions. But you must know, that this is not just something I am making up. Several recognized scientists (also other than old hippies) are reaching the same conclusion that I have, while other, equally recognized scientists are reaching your conclusions.

I will therefor stop this discussion now, in stead of just going on and on. At first it was fun to discuss this matter, but in the end it just becamse boring.

quote:


Productivity doesn't mean anything without consumption. If you can produce 20 widgets a day now instead of 10, that's only important if you can SELL 10 more. Consumption comes from wealth.



You are looking at this from a microperspective and are failing to see the big picture. Your examble works if we're just talking about one company, but surely you must see, that when everybody produces more then the demand will also come.

quote:


What? The velocity of money creates wealth. When it slows, it slows the entire economy, removes capital from investment (in a capitalist economy), and causes contraction of production. If money doesn't move, nothing gets produced. What's the point of money other than investment and expenditure?



Your idea is right, in the short run. A slower velocity of money will create a crisis. But as everybody continues to produce the same this situation is not stable. You must be able to see that. After a few years of crisis the value of money will have moved to a new level, where supply and demand again match. Money has no value other than what we give it. And the value we give money depends on the supply and demand (like with all other goods). So when the supply of money decreases (because of a slower velocity) the "price" of mony will decrease too.

quote:


Go here and do likewise...



Wow. Thanks, Veggie! I was number 908,482 to do so. Appreciate it, dude! But still, how can you POSSIBLY state that we don't produce more today with less effort than we did in 1920???

quote:


We use more raw materials but the produciton of raw materials accounts for a smaller portion of the economy in terms of real GDP



That was excactly what I said!

quote:


I'm a Soviet factory worker. I make widgets. I make 2 an hour. I can make 3 an hour. But why? I will not get a pay raise, I will not be hired by a competitor who needs someone to make 3 an hour, I will not be given a raise for it.



Although I would mostly agree with you I must state that not everybody is working only for their own good. Do you know something about sociology? If so, have you heard of the 3 basic lifeforms (The Independant, The Worker and The Carreer lifeform)? If so, then you should be able to see that if everybody belonged to the carreer lifeform then communism could work.

quote:


It's a natural consequence of competition. It's not sad, it's a boon to the consumer. Who is, by the way, the proliteriat...



It is sad if it will end like Marx thought it would: With contiued and severe economic crisis in all capitalist countries, as it could no longer pay off to start anything.


Marcel:

quote:


Marx didn’t foresee that industrial massproduction would inevitably lead to massconsumption, which had to lead to better wages for the workers to buy these goods. Even the owners of means of production (e.g. Henry Ford) understood their workers were also potential consumers. Instead of the gradual impoverishment of an increasing number of people, the standard of living was going up. The collapse of the system didn’t come.



Yeah. I think what killed marxism was labour unions, which made the workers stand much stronger against the capitalists than Marx had ever foreseen.

Your SE system:
Hmm, I had something far more advanced in my head.


Andz:

I agree. I think we might have gone a bit too far off topic. That was why I stopped my conversation with Venger. Let's try to get back to Civ3 for a moment.


Orange (again):

I must agree with Marcel that Soviet was definately an oliarchy and not a dictatorship. Perhabs it was dictatorial under Stalin, but all later Soviet leaders were chosen and under control by the politbureau (the oligarchs).


Tiberius:

Think what you want. I have checked it with people and books about Orwell, and it is true. To quote Tupac: "That's just the way it is!"
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Old May 29, 2000, 10:32   #127
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quote:


I strongly disagree. In communism you just need the infinitely good, who always think about the common good and never themselves. Communism would work best if people were intelligent, so there's no need for stupid people there. Capitalism need the people that are infinitely selfish, as the system is based on that if everybody does what is best for themselves it will end up being best for everybody.


Infinitely stupid meaning they aren't smart enough to think "Hey, I can really produce more if I do this instead of what I've been doing. I think I deserve more food and clothes now" Communists do have to be perfect people as well, and I stated that.
quote:


Basically for Communism you need perfect people who always want to do what is right and never complain and always have a smile on their face



quote:


Orange (again):

I must agree with Marcel that Soviet was definately an oliarchy and not a dictatorship. Perhabs it was dictatorial under Stalin, but all later Soviet leaders were chosen and under control by the politbureau (the oligarchs).


Yes, that's true. I thought we were discussing Stalinism though. So I changed Oligarchy to Dictatorship. If we represent Communism in Civ 3 I would like to see it as Stalinism (Socialist Dictatorship) because oddly enough, that's where most of Russia's success came - under Stalin. After that it was downhill Same with Mao. (even with the cruelty and death, you have to admit that much more change was done under Stalin and Mao)

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Old May 30, 2000, 00:35   #128
Tiberius
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The Joker

You misunderstood me. I believe you. Just the idea that someone who was communist (or socialist) saw the end of the capitalism in a way which in reality looked more like communism in its final stage (well, almost, but I saw it and looked pretty much the same), made me laugh. I saw in 1990 the "Animal Farm" cartoon (I think you read or saw it too), and it was a huge succes in Romania, exactly because we all felt that it was about communism.
Remember: "All animals are equal, except some animals that are more equal"? That was definitely about communism.
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Old May 30, 2000, 14:55   #129
Marcel I
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OK my SE system is quite basic.
It's IMO quite suitable to represent most governmental systems available in Civ2.
As I mentioned before I don't think choices like SMAC's police state, green and so on or fundamentalist should be simply be made with paying a few bucks when you chose them.
They should be made by your people who should have their own agenda and be influenced by improvements and the chosen political govermentform.
I'm open to any good suggestion on SE choices. I haven't very deeply thought about it myself yet.
Fire at will I should say.

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Old May 31, 2000, 04:03   #130
The Joker
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Orange:

Sorry! You're right, although I still don't quite agree that you would need stupid people for communism.


Tiberius:
I think what Orwell didn't like was the "communism" of Eastern Europe. He thought it was a terrible government form, and he thought it had nothing to do with the way communism should be.

I remember the animal farm, and it is definately about Russia up to ww2. Although I don't remember it in detail, I do remember that several of the characters in the book/cartoon was metaphores for characters in Russia. Napoleon was of cause Stalin, and other characters, including Hitler and Marx, were actually in the cartoon.


Marcel:
As I said I am currently (when I have time) working on a new SE like system, where the people are actually involved in the process of managing your empire. I have it worked out in my head, but there are parts of it that I have not yet written down. As soon as this has been done I will post it here at Apolyton.
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