Dan, Soren, Jeff....please take a peek here....:)

[Mannamagnus]

Isn't life wonderful

[Expatriate]

Just a quick comment:

Originally posted by Libertarian
Infogrames, owning the name "Civilization" and variants as well as certain intellectual items with respect to the game may, as is well precedented, establish who may and who may not publish its official strategy guide.

Its actually not possible to own the rights to an ordinary word. Its a trademark, meaning that others cant publish a game called the same. But noone can prevent you from writing a book called "Civilization Strategy Guide" or selling a candybar called "Civilization Bar". Just make sure you dont use any logos or other copyrighted things that belongs to others.

This discussion actually reminds me of a situation that happened during the launch of the MMORPG "Anarchy Online". A guy that called himself "Derisor" on the boards got unlucky and found that someone else created a character called just that ingame. Since the games doesnt allow duplicate names he couldnt get that name for himself. He then started threathning the other player with lawsuits because he claimed to have copyrighted the name. The resident law experts on the boards were fast the point out that a name or single cant be copyrighted

[Velociryx]

The more I'm reading here, the more confident I am about continuing with my own work....thanks everyone....

-=Vel=-

[sophist]

Originally posted by MarkG
hmm, well Vel, the hurricane guys were not simply talking strategy, they were selling something for which prima had payed to get the exclusive rights....

i wonder though if these rights are for eternity or... less

They can't do that. They don't have a legal leg to stand on. Freedom of speech and all that. Now, Infogrames might be able to get somewhere by stating Hurricane couldn't use the trademark "Civilization III," but I think even in that case they don't have that much power.

Originally posted by Libertarian

What exactly is wrong with the inoffensive ethic of greed? Why is profit bad? Why ought not the owners of property be the proprietors of rights with respect to it?

Greed's not so bad. But ownership is not viral; just because they own the "Civilization III" trademarks, copyrights, etc. does not mean that they immediately own and control everything that comes about as a result. This site, for example, is dedicated to Civilization games, but that doesn't mean that Microprose/Hasbro/Infogrames/... can tell Apolyton what to do. Actually, I think that your libertarian outlook would see things this way; I know mine does. The important part to recognize here is where Infogrames property rights end and someone else's begin. For property to be meaningful and practical, there have to be limits on one's rights with regards to property (a seemingly self-contradictory statement, I acknowledge, but also truth).

Originally posted by Libertarian
gaikokujin,

Thanks for the lecture, however gratuitous. Libertarianism — or opposition to the initiation of force and fraud — is not lacking in a definition and contextualization of property. Infogrames, owning the name "Civilization" and variants as well as certain intellectual items with respect to the game may, as is well precedented, establish who may and who may not publish its official strategy guide. Prima, having secured exclusivity, was understandably miffed when a third party undercut its rights, which rights were extended by the property's owner.

I'm not defending anything about Prima or Infogrames here other than what I've stated. I don't know whether their strategy guides are worth the money or not. Frankly, I'm satisfied with what I've learned from Vel's compendium of notes. But rights with respect to property (the only rights that are ontologically relevant) may not be abridged solely because the rights holder is stupid.

Prima cannot secure exclusivity because Infogrames does not have control over what others say about Civilization III. Infogrames does not own exclusivity so they cannot sell exclusivity to Prima, and so Prima cannot prevent anyone from publishing their thoughts and opinions thereon. Now, they have control over what the official one is, but that's a matter of truth versus falsehood, as if Hurricane claimed they were the official guide, then that would imply they were endorsed by Infogrames, which is obviously not the case. But then, they never did that. I'm all for property rights and the free market, but ownership is not absolute.

If I wasn't unemployed (and getting poorer by the minute), I'd want to publish a guide just to put Infogrames back in their place.

Originally posted by Expatriate

Its actually not possible to own the rights to an ordinary word. Its a trademark, meaning that others cant publish a game called the same. But noone can prevent you from writing a book called "Civilization Strategy Guide" or selling a candybar called "Civilization Bar". Just make sure you dont use any logos or other copyrighted things that belongs to others.

Is that completely correct? I believe you can have a trademark on an ordinary word in a particular context. While Infogrames could not block a Civilization Candy Bar, they could prevent anyone from creating a computer game (perhaps any software or board game as well) called "Civilization" or with that word in its title on the grounds that it would create confusion in the minds of consumers etc. etc. But in the strategy guide case, if they prominently state that they are not endorsed and they give proper credit for trademark ownership and so forth, I can't see how Infogrames could stop them. Besides out-spending them on lawyers (who really ought to have better professional standards of behavior to punish those who go along with tripe like this).

[Libertarian]

Vel,

Perhaps the advice given here is not the most steady advice available to you. One set of "gamers" has already demonstrated an incredible legal naivite.

Why not consult professional legal advice if you truly intend to invest the time and effort into your project? Most such initial consultations are gratis, and if you have a legal let to stand on, it will be because the attorney with whom you consult smells money down the road. In just a few minutes, you'll know exactly where you stand. And where you can go.

[Libertarian]

Just to be sure you understand, I'm not trying to disuade you from writing your book. I'm just saying that you're likely to find more reliable advice elsewhere. This is not a matter to toy with or take lightly. You've no idea the grief that awaits you if you do not strategize this project at least as thoughtfully as you would strategize a game of Civ.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Just to be sure you understand, I'm not trying to disuade you from writing your book. I'm just saying that you're likely to find more reliable advice elsewhere. This is not a matter to toy with or take lightly. You've no idea the grief that awaits you if you do not strategize this project at least as thoughtfully as you would strategize a game of Civ.

Based on my (non-professional, but pretty good for a layman) understanding of the law, he'd be in the clear. I mean, think about the implications of this sort of thing being illegal for a while. That would be some seriously bad mojo. The issue here isn't who's right. Infogrames could outspend any of us long before a judge dismissed the case as frivolous. Well, unless you caught the attention of the ACLU or EFF, in which case Infogrames would have be in it deep.

[Heliodorus]

Originally posted by gaikokujin

Should be _When_ is profit bad? When it is _boundless_. Follow the logic, see below.

The word, 'property', has no meaning in the abstract. When you see the word, 'property', think, _whose_ property? Actual property only has a real existence when it is the property of _sombody_ (or a group of sombodies). As we know from John Locke, property adheres to persons as a result of their labor in producing particular forms of property. This gives property definite _bounds_.


[insert ideological apologetics for crony gangster (read: lawyer) capitalism, U.S. - style]

Obviously you're very well versed in the philosophy of property and the legality of it, too. My thought on your post and on the concept of the publishing deal addressed herein is that what the Prima guys are claiming as property is not their strategy guide, per se, but their property is the right to make a profit through a book about Civ3 (whatever the meaningless content may be).

I don't think Prima has a leg to stand on when it comes to anyone publishing anything for free on the Internet (so you GO, Vel, GO!) (or were you intending to try to recover some of your effort by charging?). But when someone charges for their version of a strat guide, they infringe on Prima's exclusive right to profit from publishing garbage austencibly blessed as useful Civ3 info.

As for Prima's "guides," they are handy with RPGs most of the time (I particularly liked their Icewind Dale guide), but with a game the scope of Civ3, or MMORPGs, they are worse than useless. I have their Everquest guide, which has about 200 pages of fluff and about 25 useful pages of spells and maps. I learned my lesson - go to the web for your guides.

[Velociryx]

The ultimate plan is to follow the same basic format that I used when putting the SMAC(x) guide together.

Post TONS of ideas and observations in the forums here, get involved in detailed and in-depth discussions about game mechanics....what works and what doesn't (and why/why not!), find ways of stressing and/or breaking the current system, etc.

And, when I've got 100,000-odd coherent and hopefully entertaining words on the subject, put a fancy coat of paint on it, polish it till it's glowing, add in any tables that might be appropriate, shortcut sheets, and a fistful of goodies I wrote but kept to myself as surprises for the readers of the finished work, and then haul the whole thing to a publisher to create an actual, saleable book out of it.

In this way, I feel two important groups are served:

First, the strategy guide is NOT developed in a vaccuum. All the ideas in what eventually becomes the guide are put to forum to be discussed and dissected. LOTS of folks test them (with, predictably, varrying degrees of success), and then come back to report on whether it worked or not and why, which leads to still more refinements and additional rounds of discussion....

Ultimately then, what you end up with is a collection of ideas that have been thoroughly tested and refined by the gaming community as a whole. Thus, a large portion of the body of work that eventually becomes the Civ-Guide will already be common knowledge here. No need to go out and buy the book when you participated firsthand in the discussion that swirled around its creation!

However, having said that, numerous people find something magical about holding that bound, finished product in their hands (I found that out during the SMAX project!). And that's really, really cool to me.

So...the distilled answer is this: I fully intend to carry on with my strategy threads and ongoing discussions. I am making careful notes of about every game I play, and am constantly refining my strategies and observations about the game.

Eventually, there'll be enough material for a book, and when there is, I intend to make one and market it. The truth is, most of my potential market is right here though, and everybody here will have already seen the lion's share of the material as it was slowly whipped into shape, which begs the question....will anybody wanna buy it when it's done?

So...that either makes me a really, totally foolish marketeer, or a completely brilliant one....jury's still out?

In terms of "marketing the product" though....for me at least, it's not about the money. It's never about the money. What it's about, at the core, is doing what I enjoy doing.

I'm certainly not gonna strong-arm anybody into buying the guide...lol...not my style.

But, the option will be there....worst case, I'm out a few hundred bucks to set all that up....

-=Vel=-

[Libertarian]

No, Vel, sorry. Worst case is that you're out many thousands of bucks, a case that is ever so simply averted merely by consulting professional legal opinion. Whatever you decide to do, all the best.

[Velociryx]

Yep....that part though, goes without saying. I intend to take a close look with a Lawyer at the legal ins and outs of it all, but....no need to do that just yet. I don't have anything that even *approaches* enough material, and what I DO have is in rough shape so far....but...when I'm closer, yes, that'll very definitely be a part of the process....

-=Vel=-
(who mighta been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night....the folk of Prima will not find me an easy target, I think)

[sophist]

Originally posted by Heliodorus

I don't think Prima has a leg to stand on when it comes to anyone publishing anything for free on the Internet (so you GO, Vel, GO!) (or were you intending to try to recover some of your effort by charging?). But when someone charges for their version of a strat guide, they infringe on Prima's exclusive right to profit from publishing garbage austencibly blessed as useful Civ3 info.

How is the right to publish an exclusive right to Prima? How can Infogrames control that? So, let's go through this logically. Can we say that making posts like in the strategy section is legal? I think we can all agree on that. Now, suppose someone wants to collect all those posts in one location. That is clearly acceptable too; it's barely different. Now, suppose there's redundancy, misspellings, bad grammar, and structural problems with this format. So some enterprising individual goes and distills all the content into a more neatly organized, cleanly edited, nicely formatted document. Same information, but presented much better. Clearly acceptable actions. Now, suppose some of the people who want to read this document don't have access to the web. Then you print out the document and send it to them. Also acceptable behavior. But wait... you incurred costs doing this favor for this person. You spent money on the paper, the toner/ink, and postage (call it a dollar). Surely it's ok for you to get reimbursed for those; you don't run a charity. Then there's the time you spend printing it out, stapling, folding, and mailing. Those are more ambigiuous costs, but time is the only currency any of us have. Your time should be made up somehow, so it's perfectly reasonable to tack on another 50 cents or so to account for your time, especially considering you might be doing this a dozen or more times. So now you're accepting money for a guide substantially written by you to a game you don't own. At what point in the chain did this become legal? At what point does Infogrames gain control over what you do? You're not profiting; you're covering your expenses, including your time. You're being very clear to demark who owns what, never claiming Civ3 or attendant trademarks and copyrights as your own. All you're doing is writing down what you think about a particular subject (namely Civ3) and sending it to other people who send you compensation for your time, materials, and effort.

[eclarkso]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep....that part though, goes without saying. I intend to take a close look with a Lawyer at the legal ins and outs of it all, but....no need to do that just yet. I don't have anything that even *approaches* enough material, and what I DO have is in rough shape so far....but...when I'm closer, yes, that'll very definitely be a part of the process....;)

-=Vel=-
(who mighta been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night....the folk of Prima will not find me an easy target, I think)

If you want my advice, don't call Tom Turnipseed or Bill Green, no matter what the back of the phone book says :). Seriously, if you don't already have an attorney/firm in mind, my grandfather was a partner with what is now Haynsworth Sinkler Boyd, so I can recommend them (yes, I'm from Columbia too).

My apologies if you're related to Messrs. Green or Turnipseed :). Good luck with the project, you're a much more patient man than I!

[Velociryx]

LOL! Sitting here at work, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw the names of Columbia lawyers in a post! Very cool to meet someone else from Columbia here on 'poly! (and to those of you not from 'round here, yes, we really do have a....er....hmmm.....I can't really say "prominent" but certainly well-known lawyer named....Turnipseed....

And thank you for the offer! I will be needing a hand with looking into the legalities of it all when it gets closer to time, so I'll take you up on that!

-=Vel=-

[Libertarian]

Sophist,

Logic? We're talking law here.

[Q Classic]

Hmm... just a thought, Vel... maybe if you published in eBook format, through a good dealer, you could circumvent Infogrames/Prima's silly little thing.

and in it, in the forward, you could suggest that Firaxis drop such a prickish publisher, to just quickly dump them, maybe rename their flagship series to something else...

[sophist]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Sophist,

Logic? We're talking law here.

Logic will work to a point. After all, for the most part, the law is self-consistent. Namely, one part of the law shouldn't contradict another part of the law. When that happens, there's usually court decisions and explanations determining why one has priority over the other.

[scientist]

Since the game is starting to get boring, I'm back discussing the political economics behind the game with my fellow civ scholars.

Isn't this forum a "publication" in its own way? Could Infogrames shut it down? IANAL, but I suspect that Infogrames could not shut down Apolyton. They can't stop people from publically discussing a game. I would posit that a publication is a form of speech. The fact that money is made from that publication should not allow that speech's rights to be heard to be inhibited. Once they put their product into the public sphere by selling it, they have opened it up as a subject of free speech.

An allowance might be made with regard to any "official" appelation, but that's about it.

And I have taken a look through Prima's guide, and besides some basic info and stats that should have been included in the manual, it is a shoddy worthless book.

[Expatriate]

I just had a thought! (amazing, huh? )

Even if Prima had some way of claiming the sole right to profit from advice on Civ III, they have to protect that right to keep it. So if we all start selling each small pieces of advice for 1 cent each, they basically have to sue us all.

And no, they cant possibly secure the sole right to profit from a guide to a game. What is the next step? Will they start suing all the magazines that have reviewed Civ III? After all, a lot of those magazines include information that may help someone to being a better player. Maybe Vel should publish his guide under the name "Civilization III review booklet" and claim that its a very in-depth game review. There is no way they can sue one person for reviewing the game without doing it to every other reviewer.

[Velociryx]

Heh! Some excellent ideas here! I like the "everybody charge a penny" approach! They'd go insane just trying to chase everyone down....LOL

And the "extended, in-depth review...." that's every bit as pure gold....as doing a "review of Prima's work"

-=Vel=-

[rdomarat]

I doubt you'd get a reply from Dan or Jeff or any of the Firaxis posters on this issue. If Firaxis is anything like the software companies I've worked for, the legal department is tucked away in some corner and is staffed by those stangers that you see at the Christmas party each year that also seem to come and take the last donut on Friday mornings.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a lawyer..... (please don't sue me)

Reg

[Sauron07]

Hello all, nice discussion you have going on here. As an attorney(please don't hold it against me, I actually work for state gov't and my only real practicing is pro bono public interest work - like this) I have a couple of general comments to make, including an offer to vel to provide any advice he may need on this subject free of charge.

A caveat to start, its been several years since I took a trademark class in lawschool and this is not my area of practice. So until I do a little research and actually get some info on the agreement between Prima and Infogames I will just make some general observations.

First, trademark law, as I believe sophist correctly alluded too, is based on the premise of preventing another individual from capitalizing on your reputation/goodwill while copyright law focuses on protecting your intellectual property from being stolen or utilized for profit. Basicly if you trademark the logo/name of your product then another individual cannot utilize that trademark for commercial purposes in a manner which would lead or confuse consumers into believing that it is your work. The example of the civilization candy bar is entirely correct, anyone could create a civilization candy bar but creating a civilization board game might lead consumers to think it is a firaxis product, and thereby profiting on the value of the civilization name and infringing on infogames rights.

The issue at hand in the Prima/HG dispute is probably more of a contract and copyright issue however. My guess is that Prima paid infogames/firaxis for the rights to publish the "official" Civ III strategy guide(thereby profiting from the association with the creator of the game). Now if I was Prima's attorney, I would also want exclusive rights to utilize the copyrighted material from within the game(images, logos, screenshots) for a guide, and I think(dont know without seeing the contracts) that this is most likely what occurred. As a result, Prima can ask/force infogames to bring a copyright infringement case against any other guide publisher if those guides utilize screenshots, quotes or other images from within the game in their guide. Infogames does have the right to prevent reproduction of their original works for profit but it is generally not in their best interest to do so(i.e. magazine reviews=free PR so why stop them), but if Prima is paying them they may be doing this on Prima's behalf.


One other thing, there is no reason why Infogames would have to sue everyone if we all started selling strat tip for 1 cent. They could pick and choose who to make an example of so while it sounds like fun, it wouldnt really prevent them from taking action.
Lastly, and an important point is that the law doesnt exist in a vacuum, if Infogames took enough of a public relations hit from the translation project and HG guide issue, they may realize its counterproductive to enforce their rights(even though they could) and making the legal issue not the deciding factor in the dispute.

Anyway, I will do a little research into this subject and may just have to obtain a copy of the complaint filed against HG.

[Libertarian]

Speaking of board games, I always wondered how Microprose got away with using the name "Civilization" since it was an Avalon Hill board game at the time. And it worked very much the same way: global expansion, tech advances, etc.

[Heliodorus]

I'm not a lawyer and so I can't assert rules and precedents on how this exclusivity right works, but clearly they do work.

Examples of exclusive marketing rights are found all over the place:
Concert T-Shirts at music concerts. A thousand t-shirt makers create knock-off concert Ts and try to sell them around the venue, and it is illegal (I don't know why, but it is).

Movies promote their toys at McDonald's or BK, and the other chains do not create their own mockups and sell them in their kids meals.

Napster comes to mind, but that's about intellectual property rights, and I don't think that's in the same area as exclusive marketing rights, which is what we're dealing with here.

There is a VERY interesting precedent for what Vel is doing, though, from the site Gamespot.com. Gamespot is renown for writing and publishing gaming guides for games like Baldur's Gate and Tombraider. Some of those are on a fee-base download, and some of them are free. Vel, if you want to get some of the legal issues researched, they may be able to help.

In any case, if Vel did NOT intend to charge for it

[Sauron07]

I just visited Hurricane Gamings webpage, and it further cemented my belief that infogames beef was most likely about the use of screenshots from the game(read copyrighted material) within the strategy guide. I have also emailed HG to try and verify this information and obtain a copy of any legal actions filed on the subject. I will be in contact with vel, and anyone else who is interested in the subject just send me a pm and I will be glad to help.

One last comment, the thread topic does not really identify the subject of this discussion and Im sure some more apoly-lawyers would join the fray if it was more clearly labeled.

[Velociryx]

Howdy Sauron, and thanks for the MOST generous offer! The information you've already uncovered has been quite enlightening (as Vel breathes a sigh of relief about having resisted the temptation to use screenies in the SMAX guide!). Good, heartening news indeed (tho I DO feel sorry for the folk of Hurricane Games.....I feel like I got my money's worth out of their short, but intriguing guide).

Still...this is good news! Soon as I unbury myself at work, I shall get right back to writing about more strategies I've been comin' up with...oh! And also finishing those Civ-Analysis articles!

-=Vel=-

PS: Yep....I forget what the title of the thread was originally, but as the discussion unfolded, I changed it to get the attention of some of the Firaxians....

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Speaking of board games, I always wondered how Microprose got away with using the name "Civilization" since it was an Avalon Hill board game at the time. And it worked very much the same way: global expansion, tech advances, etc.

Im pretty sure I remember reading something about Microprose buying the rights to make the board game into a computergame. In an interview I know I have seen Sid Meier state that the idea for th computer game came from the board game, and it pretty obvious that many concepts are taken from the board game. Avalon Hill has later published an alternate "Civilization" computer game that is a direct copy of the board game, so maybe whatever agreement they had with Microprose must have left them the option to make a version of the game themselves.

[Libertarian]

I like your Einstein quote. It reminds me of my favorite quote about computers from, of all people, Pablo Picasso: "Computers are useless; they give you only answers."

[Sniffer]

Sorry that I have taken so long to get in on the discussion, as I have been quite busy for the past few days and didn't know about this thread. I am the writer for the hurricanegaming Civ 3 guide, so I know a fair bit about this issue and would like to help out a bit.

It was not only an issue of Screen Shots or anything like that when push finally came to shove.

The first contact we were given was from a lawyer at Randomhouse (Prima's publisher). She said that Infogrames wanted the guide sacked immediately. We asked for the reasons, and we were told that Prima had an exclusive for this guide. That meant that any guide with the following would be illegal:

Guides with any lengthy discussion of strategy
Guides that were or were not sold for money
Guides with Screenshots

This would cover almost all of IGN's guides (back when they did a lot more), might hit on Civ3 forums, and basically cover anything that could ever be done by the community. Officially, the lawyer claimed that this was not because the guide was being sold!

The screenshot issue has been done before, and those shots are legal! Game artwork is not (that is IP of the publisher), but the shots are public domain.

It may amuse you to know that Prima was sued by Nintendo back in 1997 for this type of thing, and Prima was the victor. That is irony for you. The only reason why we didn't fight was because I have no money. In fact, I am pretty much out of a job now because of this. I'm trying not to be bitter, but this really hurts--we tried our best to be part of the community, we didn't claim to have an exclusive guide, and all of those screen shots were my own work.

Even better, Prima does not have to disclose when they have an exclusive deal! There was no mention of this until the lawyers closed in. I was in the middle of working on a Return to Castle Wolfenstein guide (almost done, actually), when Prima announced that they had an exclusive for that guide--this was well over a week after the game came out.

My email address is mklummis@hurricanegaming.com if you have any comments or would like to find out more about this issue. I am perfectly willing to help out anyone who is worried about getting sued.

Take care guys,
Michael

P.S. I have received very unofficial support from Firaxis, saying that at least one person there was against this action. It would be very nice if Firaxis as a company was willing to say that I didn't deserve this. If anyone thinks that I was getting rich off of this work, understand that my most successful guide ever (Max Payne), took nine days of work and made me about $400 bucks. Some guides never make $100, and now I can't do any for fear of legal action. Just wanted you guys to know that I wasn't big business.

[Sniffer]

To Sauron07:

I don't have a written copy of anything that Randomhouse gave us. Everything was dealt with between Doug Walsh and Randomhouse, so I got a third hand report of the matter. Sorry that I can't be much help in that area.