Civ III Engine Proposal

I know I've said this before, probably twice, but to me it's very important. But now I have even more information about a graphics engine we could use for Civ III. And I'm not saying just 'could' but 'should' too.

I don't know how many of you, including Firaxis and Sid Meier himself are aware of the game Black and White by Lionhead Studios. If you do know a fair bit about the game, you will know why I am suggesting we use Black and Whites Engine.

We now have the technology to further emerse the player into the game itself. As many people have said, including myself, the Enviroment is one of the main aspects of Civilization. It's where Civilization grows and lives. It is their requirement. So in other words, the more realistic it is, the better Civilization will be. Because, it just doesn't seem right to put people on a non-living world with no depth, does it.

Black and White's engine, personaly, is the best engine to use for this game. Unless, you can come up with something better. (VR? haha).

Here are a bunch of screenshots of Black and White, so you can use your imaginations as to what the game will be like if it was Civilization III.

Before I give you the screenshots, I just want to let you know that this world is a living-breathing world. The tree's sway, the seasons change, snow settles or disappears into the ground. Tree's change to a golden flavour in autumn, rainbows, storms/rain, and even day and night. You can see the sunrise come up and go down. Birds fly, animals are chasing each other for food or reproducing. Well, you get the picture.
http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen009.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen003.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen008.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?i...reen011big.jpg http://bwvault.ign.com/display.cgi?images/screen005.jpg

And remember, the engine is very controlable. You can zoom in so close you can see a worm poking out of an apple on top of a barrel. And you can zoom out so far, you are pretty much in space.
It's also a scalable engine. So when you zoom out everything gets smaller and when you zoom in everything gets larger.
http://www.gamecenter.com/Features/E...te/shot03.html

You can rotate it round, its all controlled by grabbing the land with a hand cursor and pulling it or pushing it. And the camera view moves forward or backward or around. Total freedom.

Peter M, the designer of the game recently said. IN SCALE. Judging by the size of the villagers in the game, the entire world in Black and White is 3 times larger than our planet Earth. So don't think that there's not enough room.

And if you think computers aren't powerful enough. Surely you have a P200 with/without a 3DCard? It will always run at 15fps I think it is, which is a good smooth rate. The human eye can't really distinquish any faster than that really.

And how many units do you think can be displayed at once on screen? 500. How many units do you have an entire game? I end up with about 50. Heck, not even close to 500.

All I am saying is, if you want to make this a great game, and I know its worth it. I mean for christs sake, everyone loves it, even people who don't like these sort of games. You have to make it good, and you should be using the best thats available. No crappy looking, freedomless engines!

[Youngsun]

Beautiful graphics I say!

quote: And how many units do you think can be displayed at once on screen? 500. How many units do you have an entire game? I end up with about 50. Heck, not even close to 500.

Me around 200~300 units. 500 units?! once in a life time.

[Malignantx]

Wow the graphics are beautiful. Yes and even before CivII came around i imagined graphics like these would be "needed" in order to fully imerse the player and attain a level of interaction no 2d, chess looking game could. These graphics are awesome, just imagine the possibilities and how realistic civIII can be now. CivIII would totally blow away the competition =p. Of course the gameplay must be on an equal level, graphics only complement the gameplay.

[The Joker]

WOW!

I can only say one thing: I want to buy this game! What sort of game is it?

If Civ3 is to use graphics that are anything like that it would be truly great.

[yin26]

It's an interesting idea. I happen to like U9's graphics better, but the world is not as maleable, of course.

Personally, I'm looking forward to a more "simple" Civ3, but that's because I'm hungry for a retro Civ3 with ultra-modern stuff built into the AI and the gameplay itself.

HOWEVER, a Civ-like game with a BW or U9 engine would be great. Firaxis' next game anybody? Or maybe BHG is already on it?

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 05-15-2000 01:53 AM ...Me around 200~300 units. 500 units?! once in a life time.

On a big map in civ2 I usually end up with atleast 150 cities. I usually have about 3-5 units in (or around) every city. that's about 600 units. And above this i usually have about 100 engineers working the land. That's a total on 700 units. (This is why i've started to hate units and stopped playing civ2). Is there any further degree of difficulties or am I just too good? hehe

Sweet graphics, looks like something made with "Bryce 4". Have any more info on this game, I never heard of it. Remember, with the bigger map, more units may be a necessity

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~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

Okay, Black and White is a type of God game, you control the villagers and a titan. The AI is the most advanced AI ever created for a game. Its one of the top 5 games in development. Halo, Freelancer, DeusX and I think..The Sims was the other one, but I'm not sure. But after E3, people have agreed that Black and White beats them all hands down.

It's really difficult to explain in a short sentence. You really need to find out for yourself.
http://www.lionhead.co.uk Thats the official site. You can find it there.

Yin, what is U9?

And I understand that there can be a lot of units in a Civ game, but do you ever see them all at the same time? Thats what I was saying. And it's obvious that if the units aren't doing anything, then you could have thousands of units viewed at the same time.

[yin26]

U9 = Ultima 9

The graphics were (are) amazing--if you have a powerful enough computer, that is. So while the weather effects were stunning and you actually felt "in" the game at times, my 450 Mhz P2 with 128 MB ram (16MB Voodoo2) choked in places, which really ruined the immersive feeling. If you haven't given the game a try, the last patch they made gets the game in pretty good shape.

However, most people don't have a comp powerful enough to run all the stuff at full tilt, so it's a bit disappointing. Ultima on-line 2 is coming out, and you can see shots of that around, too.

But we need an engine that runs smoothly on most machines, not just on a priviledged few, so it seems like PM is doing the right thing. But I do hope he leaves plenty of space for people to crank things up if they have the power.

[yin26]

Check out some shots of U9.

I realize that a kind of God-like perspective would be better for a Civ3 game, but you can get an idea of the kind of detail they put in. Surprisingly, the game itself looks and feels even better.

[Adm.Naismith]

Loki, very nice screenshots! Thank you for news.

I'm only a bit upsetted by your enthusiastic:

quote: The AI is the most advanced AI ever created for a game.

Did you played the game in beta or you simply pass for true the common marketing "$h!t"?

Back to wonderful Black & White graphics, I agree it looks very immersive, BUT it can be appropriate for a TBS game, where B&W instead is real time?

I mean, how can we control the units movement with precise tuning? Squares or exagons (hidden or visible) are a need IMHO. Quite difficult to match a grid system with a so smooth graphic.

Of course I will be pleased to see I'm wrong (on real game, not by some players dream), better if I can play so beatiful beast on affordable Notebook (no 3D cards as powerful as desktop models).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Ah Ultima, yes I've seen those screenshots. They do look awesome.

I've been studying Black and White as much as I can for over 2 years now. The Freedom in the game, is much more than anyone is used to, this type of freedom in the game, is the most that has ever been created. It's difficult to explain how large and powerful the Engine is, how new it is, compared to games now. All I can say is, think big, think REALLY BIG. Because that is precisly what this game is.

and Adm, you have made valid points. I did very quickly fear that there wouldn't be a way to 'control' the units and so forth.

I'll tell ya what though, through my eyes, imagining how Civ III would work in a rule-less world. Would work much the same way as it does in real life. Just like it is in that other game. Shogo, anyone know it?

If I want to put my tank behind two tree's, I should be able to do it. If I want the turret to stick out 4 inches over a pond, I should be able to do it. Think about this. The Sky is completely open. There are no tiles.

Imagine, you as a tribe struggling in this large island, looking up at the sky one day, in your beautiful tropical enviroment, and seeing a jet fighter fly 700mph over your island and disappearing in seconds across the horizon. And then suddenly realising, how pathetic you are. And how advanced life is out there across the ocean.

Or Vice Versa. There is SO much depth, you can isolate yourself, you can now be a part of the game, or you can open yourself up, travel to another island, now, you can REALLY explore, a world, instead of continous tiles - this is not exploring.

Lionhead is not a shitty company. They allow thousands of people beta test their game within the sudios. They are a dedicated, down to earth company, surprisingly, more down to earth than Blizzard. Christ, Lionhead are donating some of the money that Black and White sells to charity. (And it's not a publicity stunt).

I ask Firaxis, Sid Meier, to heavly consider, opening the world, and allowing us to actualy, sit in this world.

I actualy, want to play my game, and one day, see a large galleon come over the ocean, land on my beach and meet me, face to face. Now thats diplomacy!

[The Joker]

Hmm, I am not sure.

Somehow I feel it could wreck the Civ experience with such stunning graphics (did I really say that?).

It does sound nice to be able to LIVE the world you are playing in, but I feel that that is not how civ games are. In civ games you are supposed to run a civ, not be astounded by the graphics.

In other words I could say that I feel that this graphic is too realtime. I am not sure it would work in turnbased. And I would sure hate to control every little tank in my tank division, so that they all just stick 4 inches (10 centimeters?) over some building.

In stead I hope for Civ3 to have a great AI, superb diplomacy, the rise and fall of empires, a people that actually have a will and stuff like that. Combined with CPT like graphics (I thought the graphics was the best part of that game), and possibly a spherical, tileless world (I would really like this, although there are things I would much rather have) this could be the civ of my (our?) dreams.

Meanwhile: It this game complete, and if not, when will it be?

BTW I can't even begin to believe that the world in B&W is actually LARGER (??!?!!) than the earth! Is this true? So you can have billions of trees and birds that ALL move with the wind or fly over the land??

[Adm.Naismith]

Loki, I must admit I share some of The Joker fear.

quote: It does sound nice to be able to LIVE the world you are playing in, but I feel that that is not how civ games are. In civ games you are supposed to run a civ, not be astounded by the graphics.

Yes, some touches are really nice (seeing a plane flying over your head: an image worth a million words ), but I must take care of strategic Civ choices.

Seeing soldiers butchered on Normandia beaches didn't helped Montgomery or Eishenower to make better strategic decisions. It can be really immersive to see fights and labours from ground, but you really end loosing the whole scenery, IMHO.

Sky isn't the limit, my mind is!

It can be really interesting (immersive) to see some cut-scene (some battles or mid-turns events) modelized with so nice detail, but I suppose using this engine for cut-scene (pre-rendered are so boring, always-the-same) is really as using guns against flies: way too much (but it really take care of flies, you know ).

Of course I'll always sustain a spherical globe map for Civ worlds, if I can manage it.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Atahualpa]

Stuff2: CivIII will hit shores in 2001. I guess even late 2001. I am quite sure you will have a newer system at that time.
Nevertheless, I dont know if the BW engine is suitable for Civ. I think it would more fit to Sid Meier's Dinosaurs.
Dont get me wrong, I am all in favour of 3D, but a bit reduced engine would be alright too. Civ games dont live because of graphics but because of gameplay.
Of course graphics do play an important role, but gameplay is at least as important. While in Shooters for example graphics are much more important than gameplay.

ATa

[Az]

for me even CTP was too full of grafics . thew only grafics part I liked was the trade routs .

more grafics will kill the Chess feeling if you know what I mean .

Ok, this is the image I am getting from you people.

You guys seem to just want to sit in your throne and tell everyone in your civilization what to do. That isn't civilization. Think harder now!

The reason why I am suggesting they 'take' the BW Engine from Peter, and then build around it.

So they have 2? years to work on diplomacy, units, trade, and whatever! The Graphics engine is already built! So they are already half way finished!

This is what I'm trying to tell you. Grab a brilliant Engine, and put Civ on top of it.

Then, they can use all their energy into the diplomacy, trade, etc. Instead of into the graphics, coz, well, most of its done!

Listen, all I'm saying is. I don't want to feel like I am playing on my computer, and thats what I get when I play Civ1 and 2. I want to feel like I am one of the people in my civilization, and actualy feel like I have real power, etc. At the moment, the only way now, to express that type of energy and whatever, is through this Graphics Engine. And then VR.

I don't want to sit in some chair, telling people what to do, for 6000 years.

(The game will be out in 23rd September)

[yin26]

And what I (and others) are saying is that we want Civ to stay true to its roots more or less. This means NO 3D graphics.

HOWEVER, another game with Civ's depth AND a BW world would be very interesting. You can sort of get this VR feeling with Everquest and Ultima Online, but nobody has tried something like that from a Civ perspective. If done properly, it could be a blast.

But I don't want Civ3 to be that kind of game. A vastly improved Civ2 in terms of diplomatic options, interface, 2D graphics, sound, etc. is what I'm after. And there's more than enough stuff in The List to make a cool game.

[Stuff2]

Actually I'm not a fan of graphics (My computer is simply too slow and I don't afford bying a new one). What I would like is more possible responses to events. Imagine this: an majer earthquake destroys one of your cities. Instead of just getting a message that it has happened you get a message about it with possible responses to do like "Rebuild whole city for xxx gold", "Evacuate", "Let them take care of themselves", "Give aid (food and shelter)" and so on. When a neighbur country crosses your borders u'll be notified and given choises on how to react. Like "Prepare Ambush", "Warn them", "Kill them" and so on.

[Malignantx]

It seems most of you don't want great graphics, just great gameplay? I feel the same way as Loki, playing civ is like playing a chess game not controlling a civilization. Isn't civilization suppose to simulate a real civilization and the interactions between them? What is the perspective of real leaders in the world? The same (almost) as in B&W.. although real leaders can't zoom in and out but you get what im saying. The 3d graphics would make me feel IMO like im actually building an empire instead of simply moving chess pieces around. Maybe you guys are satisfied with mediocre graphics and great gameplay, but i want great grahpics and great gameplay.

And maybe CivIII isn't ready for these graphics.. and so it seems most of your budgets, but i hope by the time CivIV comes around they do switch to a 3d graphics engine like B&W and you guys have upgraded your computers by then. =)
[This message has been edited by Malignantx (edited May 17, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

If there's one thing that would get me to upgrade it would be Civ3, but I'd prefer not to. And it doesn't need great graphics, it just needs to be simple, clear, and have atmosphere. As long as it can do that without top-of-the-line graphics, then I say keep it simple.

- MKL

[yin26]

This has nothing to do with my budget. But thanks for the concern. I routinely buy a new top-of-the-line system every 2 years (and upgrade in between if I have to).

It has to do with the kind of game I want Civ3 to be. And I don't want it to be a 3D game. And this VR idea of seeing opposing leaders at a coffee shop while you stop together and discuss philosophy has never been a part of the game. It has been the illusion of the game made possible by great gameplay.

Keep it that way.

There are at least 50 3D games to choose from if I want that experience. But I don't.

True to its roots! Exactly!

You all know what made Civ a great game, well, I don't get that feeling from tiles anymore, sorry! I am trying very hard to bring that addictive feeling back into life with Civ!

Only 3D is going to accomplish that now!

I just remembered another reason why I am trying to argue this point, and that is because Firaxis have said time and time again, they are bringing Civ3 up to standards 'graphicaly'. Which is 3D. No matter which way you look at it.

I am trying to support the idea of BW's 3D Engine. Because of how powerful it is. And how addictive it will make the game again.

And Malignantx, obviously knows, that you CAN have both great gameplay and graphics. Don't let graphics make you think you can't have great gameplay, thats just pathetic.

[Grier]

IMO, if done well, a 3D g-engine for civ3 might be nice, but it certainly isnt on the top of my list. I would hate to happen to civ what happened to Populous when Pop3 came out. The most important aspects of the graphics are that they are functional.

[yin26]

Nobody is arguing (I don't think) that great graphics and great gameplay are antithetical. But there's simply no getting around the fact that a 3D Civ3 (using a BW engine) would NECESSARILY be a radically different game in terms of gameplay and feel. This is obvious.

What I'm saying is, in the case of Civ3, I don't want graphics to determine how the game is going to be radically different. If you can explain a BW engine Civ3 that has all the complexity (and simplicity) of the Civ tradition, I'm sure lots of people would be interested in hearing.

The closest thing yet is likely to be Warcraft 3...but that game is a far cry from Civ's use of world history. WC3 will be fun in its own right, no doubt, and perhaps revolutionary, but for now I don't think that a sweep of history game can be done well in 3D.

And aren't you sick of 3D games? It's been beaten to death. There will ALWAYS be room for great 2D games simply because you can do things with them that no 3D game can offer.

However, in the off-chance that Firaxis is reading this, I would like to support the new company line that graphics will be given a lot more attention. This is obviously awesome to hear...but 3D on Civ3 is clearly not the way to go.

[Asher]

Loki: I believe what you're looking for is what Warcraft III has (had?) planned...

But as stated before, B&W is a real time game, and I'm pretty sure Civ3 will be turn-based. Also...being able to see such detail in a game can wreak havoc on scale...

Imperium Galactica 2 had a cross between the two scales. There was a Galactic screen where you manuevered fleets around and a 'battle' screen. If ships were fighting, it'd zoom in and let you control ships in detail in the battle. The same thing with Tanks for ground invasions. You could also move the camera 360 degress in all directions and zoom in and out and such.

While the idea does sound cool, the novelty wears off pretty quickly and you begin to adjust to the "nice" visual effects and want a straight forward method of manuevering units tactically and move back to the strategy aspect.

WARCRAFT 3? IMPERIUM GALACTICA 2!?

ARGH!! You guys are fustrating me!

Those two games are ancient compared to Black and White, I've seen WC3 in action, its engine is terrible, and Imperium Galactica 2's engine is even more terrible!

I am trying soo hard to explain myself, but I'm failing! doh!

I just hope to god, someone from Firaxis is reading and has seen/played a bit of Black and White! I want people who have played it to help back me up! Someone!

The reason, why 3D is so important and popular, is because its the only thing that will immerse the player more. 3D cannot be done to death, simply because its too important, its still in its very early stages of technology, but in a few years, 5-10, it will be extremely realistic.

Yin, I'll be very blunt and I know you are going to disagree with me on this, but I personaly, and seriously am getting the impression you are supporting the wrong type of game, you should be supporting an advanced chess type game instead. Civilization is a hell of a lot more than chess. Like people before have said, civilization requires atmosphere, the more, the better.

I am *very* worried, that Civilization will die in the background amongst all the other games out there that will stand out infront, because they have kept up with technology.

Civilization is a very important game to the gaming industry, it is the only game with the name that needs to be on top, in front, because the majority of the people, want to actualy put on their VR headset, and sit in some golden throne. And not only that, but walk out and walk through their kingdom whenever they please. Walk into battles, and whatever.

2D will not accomplish this. I and I am very sure most other people would want to see Civilization keep up with time so that we can actualy feel like we are controlling a real civilization. If the step isn't made with Civ3, it may lose the people's interest and we may never reach that goal in the future.

I don't support 2D anymore. 2D has had its time, and IT has been done to death.

[yin26]

I understand what you are saying, but to say that 2D is dead is to oversimpify the matter.

Let me ask you: Do you still play Chess? I love chess and other board games. Poker is one of the best games in the world. Now when Battle Chess came out with pieces that fight each other, etc., I thought "Cool! Let's buy that!"

You know what? It was lame. Destroyed the game.

And let me be blunt, too: Like it or not, Civ3 is not going to be in 3D. It just isn't. I guess this means you won't buy Civ3, and that's fine. However, like a great game of chess, the underlying game of Civ3 itself will be a great thing to visit again with improved 2D graphics, gameplay etc.

Am I saying Civ and Chess are on the same level? Well, personally I think Chess is a FAR more subtle game, but Civ gives you more options, so in a way it's more complex.

And let me say again, if you can sketch for me how all that makes Civ great can be put into a BW engine, let's hear it. I don't think 3D and our systems are there yet. A much more watered down 3D Civ is possible, and perhaps quite fun.

But that ain't Civ. You want a new game entirely. I'll play it when it comes out one day. So, trust me when I say I share your enthusiasm for such a day, but it's a bit off yet and certainly not in store for Civ3.

I'm not asking for that VR stuff yet! I'm just supporting Civ for the future!

Who said Civ3 won't be in 3D? All I remember hearing is that Civ3 will be brought up to standards graphicaly, and that is from a graphic artists point of view, 3D!

By the time Civ3 comes out, and IF it's in 2D, it will look crap. absolute crap, compared to other games, most people just won't want to buy it. They'll be buying Metal Gear Solid 3 or some other game, supporting real-time rendering, etc.

I think I speak for the most, and that is that people don't want to see Civilization as a bad game, I want to see it on top. I want to see it on the top 10 list of best games of all time, again! That isn't going to happen with just good AI. Not anymore.


I am so sure, that the idea of making the player part of the people in your civilization, interacting with them and everything around you, is so important and immersive, that I am studying programming at the moment. I feel, that this is one thing I must accomplish, a game like this, just must be done, it's just one of those things that has to be done.