Civ III Engine Proposal

It's a scalable engine, so the more power your computer has, the better the game will look.

So in 5 years from now, I could have a 3ghz computer and a card that supports a zillion polygons, etc etc.

The game will then look 10 times better. It's a game that just gets better the more power it receives, even if the technology hasn't been discovered.

Yes, it will slow the computer to a crawl, but the game will still run smoothly.

The engines rule is to run at 15fps, So if the frame drops to 14fps, then it will lower the graphics a bit to bring it back to 15. Thats one of the main advantages to this scalable engine.

The game is now becoming so popular and important, that they're releasing it for PC, Playstation 2, Dreamcast, XBox, Linux and BeOS.

Hey, I'll give you a url to a video of it.
http://www.fileplanet.com/index.asp?...694&download=1

I hope you don't mind me rubbing this in

"The visual is the most important medium to clearly communicate information with minimal chance of misinterpretation. Out of our five senses, we comprehend over 80% of the environment around us through our eyes. Not only does 3D cross over language barriers, but it provides a completely unique experience. Whether it is stunning gameplay or saving time to market, the time for the 3D revolution is upon us."

I didn't say it! nvidia did!

[yin26]

quote: Originally posted by L o k i on 05-22-2000 06:25 AMI didn't say it! nvidia did!

And nvidia sells what, exactly? 3D CARDS!!! What else did you expect them to say: "Most great games are, at their base, about solid gameplay and the minimum graphics required to ignite the imagination, and this means 2D is here to stay."

Don't buy the company line, Loki. If you personally love 3D and can't get enough, great. But many of us here were weaned on outstanding games with meager graphics, and while we would all like a better visual experience, we have learned that most beautiful games pretty much sucked after the first few days of play.

P.S. How does a computer slow to a crawl and still run the game smoothly? Slow to a crawl means exactly the opposite. By your definition, the computer never slows. Instead, the graphics get adjusted.

Well, what I meant was, it will struggle to keep it running smoothly. And a 200 can do it.

It is too late for Firaxis if they want to release it next year, but still, who knows what they've been up to..

[Urban Ranger]

quote: Originally posted by L o k i on 05-22-2000 06:25 AM I hope you don't mind me rubbing this in "The visual is the most important medium to clearly communicate information with minimal chance of misinterpretation. Out of our five senses, we comprehend over 80% of the environment around us through our eyes. Not only does 3D cross over language barriers, but it provides a completely unique experience. Whether it is stunning gameplay or saving time to market, the time for the 3D revolution is upon us." I didn't say it! nvidia did!

There is some truth is this, of course. However, 3D is not always applicable to every situation. For example, web browsers definitely don't need to be in 3D.

I also don't think 3D is suitable for a grand stretagy game such as Civ. For a game such as Panzer General Assault 3D, sure. The 3D interface runs smoothly for the most part, but even for a handful of units there are problems, particularly with moving and attacking with air units. It also relies a lot on a supplementary 2D information system.

By the way, this world is mostly in fractal, not 3D

[yin26]

Ah, that makes sense.

Certainly B&W is bringing something very exciting to gaming...and I certainly share in the anticipation. Perhaps one day we'll look back and pin-point B&W as a watershed moment in 3D programming.

But surely you must see that it's too late for Civ3 to use such an idea?

[UltraSonix]

One thing I thought that was missing in this thread was that Civ3 was supposed to provide unprecedented opportunity for the end-gamer to mod to their heart's content. I could, and did, change the visuals of Civ2 and SMAC, but so far, I haven't learnt how to use motion capture to design new units (a feature definitely needed for a game like BW).

[DirkZelwis]

Hello!
This thread has gone very far into a direction I do not like. So I'll add something.
First, please consider some information like "Washington is the capital of the US of A", or "You need gunpowder to build musceteers". How would you do this in 3D? And how many bytes are needed for "Washington is...", and how many for it in 3D?
Second, I remember a game on the Commodore64, where I played the WW2 german battleship Bismarck and the cruiser Prinz Eugen against some british battlegroup. On the map, Bismarck was represented by a "B", and Prinz Eugen was represented by an "E". It was fun to play, I enjoyed it, I was delighted! So much for graphics!
Third, I'd like to throw in Tetris. How many people bought Tetris? And how many bought it because of "excellent graphics"? I think Tetris is all the argument you need for good gameplay before good graphics.
Bye, Dirk
"Dirks and Daggers.
Sharp to the point."

Ah, but I guarentee you, if someone makes Tetris VR, it would be twice as addictive.

[raingoon]

I'd like to jump in here and explain to Loki why he is wrong in suggesting that B&W graphics are needed for Civ 3 in any way.

Something that always humbles me when I ponder the great advancements of computer technology and immersive visual interfaces is the following fact. You know what the most sophisticated and imagination-stimulating graphical engine is to date?

A pencil.

A pencil and a piece of paper, actually. Put this in the hands of a genius like, say, Sid Meier and nothing can touch it for sheer ability to spark the imagination. To stimulate my senses? No. Not that. But give me the right idea on paper and I will be utterly and totally immersed. So will you. Just look how immersive this thread appears to have been so far? Face it, the debate on this thread alone is more immersive than at least three high-end graphical games you've played in the past -- put together. Because what a pencil and paper can do is spark the imagination. The job of a graphics engine like the B&W engine, what Loki wants, is to immerse me in a world that I don't have to imagine.

But the secret is -- and you won't hear this from people who sell 3D graphics cards -- it takes imagination to spark imagination.

Often we want to license that job out to technological stimulants, usually visual. Sometimes aural. And they stimulate your imagination to a point -- but they do not spark your imagination to create for itself the way a book will, or a basic abstraction -- even the Civ I graphics engine sparked a rational construct to take shape in your imagination that far exceeded the graphics of Civ 2 or any other game. I'll give you this, Loki, the B&W visuals look a lot like what it might look like if I was standing in my Civ. But that's just sensual stimulation. WHat you don't know, but I promise is true, is that after you played your fantasy Civ game a short while, you'd get the same experience we've all had with high-end visual games before. A tiny little voice in the back of your head would begin to say, incredibly: "...Huh -- this is MAYBE as fun as Civ I was, what's going on?"

Here's what's going on (or would be going on, as it were). Just like pornography is amazing for ten minutes, so would Civ 3D be amazing for ten minutes. Because it stimulates your senses as nearly as possibly approximating the real thing. After ten minutes, as someone once said, "you'd never want to have sex again." It's the same with computer games. The sensual stimulation of looking at such an amazing visual is NOTHING compared to the stimulation you get from imagining one. Why do you think Civilization was such a success in the first place?

The word "immersion" in this context does not mean literally to be immersed in a sensual sense. It means to be immersed in your own imagination. Which, oddly enough, requires the sparking of same, not -- and this is important -- an appreciation for what someone else has imagined. Cool as those B&W shots are, fantastic as that jet flying over your head is, you'll use your mouse to glance up at it on your computer monitor a few times, and after that you'll just wait for the sound to come out of your speakers letting you know it's there. Why? Because you can imagine what it looks like at least as well the game can render it.

Are cool graphics bad? No, no, no... They're fine. I'm talking about these so-called "immersive" graphics in the B&W engine. Those are bad for Civ 3 for the reasons I've mentioned, and because there is a point of diminishing returns in terms of drawing me into a computer game, and you're describing a scenario that would be beyond that point. This pseudo VR would be intriguing, to be sure. Even mind-blowingly fun -- for ten minutes. But it's not the real thing I'm after. What I'm after is the real game.

I totaly agree that reading books is great for the imagination and immersion, but no matter what happens, I am going to lose interest, even in books, I can read a sentence and be interested in it for about 1 minute. And if you can make that sentence REALLY interesting, maybe a lot longer, and it may even get stuck in my head for the rest of my life. But, eventualy everything gets boring and 'known'.

The only thing that keeps us bloody humans going is change, and if you're going to make a computer game with change, you need a powerful graphics engine and a powerful AI.

I don't know if you have heard of Evolva, but apparently everything changes, morphs into something else randomly, so it's always a different game every time you play. This game needed a 3D engine and a powerful AI.

This is what I'm asking for.

[SkeleTony69]

If Civ 3 is in 3D I won't buy it even if I can afford it.
And Loki you couldn't have been more offensive too me in some of your comments if you had called my mother a slut.You sound like my friend frank when we talk about movies.He won't watch any thing that doesn't have explosions and big special effects,whereas I prefer a movie with a good script and acting etc..
I am a 2d graphic artist for shareware rpgs(Tom Proudfoot's "Pirates of the Western Sea" if anyone is curious...www.proudft.com)
and I have as much fun playing these types of games as I do Everquest.I am only starting out on the 3D stuff using Bryce 3D but I can tell you that 15 fps is not suitable for any game,most run at 30 to 40fps or faster.
The point is that "Civ" games are a different genre than 3D action or rts games and I hope it stays that way.

SkeleTony

[raingoon]

"A computer game with change" -- I suppose you mean not like Civ I, since we all know that was the same every time you played it. And Civ 2, which was almost petrified it was so static.

Loki, I don't know why you're talking about books -- I don't think you understood my post at all.

SkeleTony69, I HATE movies, games, etc with no plot and just killing, etc.

Just because you make a game 3D doesn't mean you change its freakin GENRE, gods sake! Get a grip, its just giving the game more depth and power, which Civ DESERVES!

Civ and Civ2 were replayable, but! that doesn't mean you can't improve on that!!

And Books, read between the lines.

[nah]

You're right Loki
I think this 3D problem speed is a false one and not the aim of the game at all. It just can be an detail improuvment.
For all : have a look to 3D animations of Call to Power...great for kids!!.. but can't make the game deeper, but perhaps ridiculous!
[This message has been edited by nah (edited May 28, 2000).]

[nah]

In my opignon, what'll make the game slower if you don't improuve your machine will come from the general calculator or engin program : try to count how many parameters have to be calcute when you play with 10 civs with 80 cities each and 300units etc....
For example I had only minors problems of slowness with my 200MMX & 4Mo video in playing the 2D card Operationnal Art of War game with the heavier options. That's not a visual game but not as quik as Civ2 & i'm sure the CivIII will heavier. Improuvment for old PC's will be necessary

[Father Beast]

Loki, I have to agree with raingoon on this. Graphics make the game pretty, they don't make it playable. sometimes they don't do a good job on making it pretty. check out TOT, for example.
I still play civ 1 from time to time. I keep coming back to civ 2. Why? it's not for the graphics and sounds. these actually put me off when I first tried the game. No, it's the gameplay. the game was vastly improved from civ 1, and I have to get back to the real game.
3D acceleration? come on. next you know, they'll be demanding 3D acceleration for chess.
I also have a low end computer, and would like to be able to play it. If it requires high end systems because it has fancy graphics and runs like a pregnant sloth on anything less than a Pentium 3/750, I AM GOING TO BI**H. on the other hand, if it has high requirements because of improved AI, gameplay, and player abilities, I'll beg upgrades of my friends.
[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited May 28, 2000).]

no no no, you have to manipulate graphics properly in order for graphics to be used to gameplays advantage. It's very hard to do! But that's art for ya! Thats why some artworks are priceless!

Half-Life did it quite well, The Longest Journey did it well, Monkey Island 2, Civ2 did it well through the use of the diplomatic screens, wonder movies and also the council.

It's actualy very hard to use graphics to a strategy games advantage, but I think Black and White will be the first to accomplish it very well.

It's clear to me now, that most of you are basing your thoughts on what has already happened, I'm basing my thoughts on what can happen.
[This message has been edited by L o k i (edited May 28, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

What a vindictive guy!

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

LOL, I had to look that word up Ultra, and yes! I AM! But I can't help it, this is what you get when you mix Dutch blood and Scottish blood!

[jbvg]

Sounds Like what you are looking for Loki is Shadowbane - http://www.shadowbane.com

Looks like a great game! that shadowbane, I remember going to that site months ago! But..It's not a civilization.

[Leonidas]

I am new here - so please pardon my intrusion on your discussion.

I seem to remember a game called Myth , and Myth II, etc - didn't that game supposedly have all the 3D graphics, rotatable camera angles, "immersive" view, etc - well, where is it now? And 4 years from now - who will remember it?

Name one game, with all the spiffy "new" and "latest" graphics and technology, that has captured the interest and imagination that Civ II has (a 4 year old game).

Age of Empires and Age of Kings are great games (still 2D) but they do not have the in-depth level of play that CivII does. I wish game companies would realize that the latest and greatest in techno-wizardry is NOT where it's at when it comes to certain games. OK in first-person shooters, racing games and sports games, you want great graphics. But on the scale of Civ II or III - and remember the scale here - this graphics intensive environment would change everything we love about Civ II.

For example, Battlecry (3D Real-Time world) will be a different game from Warlords IV (2D Turn-based). Or that PG3D (a 3D 1999 game) is different from PG2 (2D 1997 game) (the latter has garnered a far greater following than the former). Gee, I wonder why that is?

All Civ III needs is to IMPROVE upon WHAT is already there - some better graphics in cities, military units, etc. Lush terrain (but not too much - let us distinquish what we have on the ground). Great sounds, movie clips, greatly improved AI and diplomacy (via SMAC), a longer technology tree (let it take us longer to move from epoch to epoch), and improve upon the combat (not a "winner takes all" approach).

In short - take what makes Civ II great - tweak it, improve it, make it better - but don't change it...

And if you read through these forums and hear people talk - that is what Civ II players really are looking for. And if they ruin Civ III? (which I strongly doubt) then we will always have CivII for another 4 or 8 or 15 more years...



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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.

Maybe the only reason why Civilization was great, is because it's the only game that lets you run a civilization, realisticaly.

Also, there aren't any games out there that prove that making Civilization into 3D a bad idea, you'd have to make Civilization into 3D in order to find out! So no one can come to me, and say, its a bad idea.

[UltraSonix]

Sorry for the late reply Loki, it was 'cause of the stupid cable connection here in Melbourne (Anyone reading from Australia - don't get Bigpond Advance).

The juicy interview with Sid Meier is in mp3/ra at:
http://www.gemonthly.com/features/civ3/index.htm

In it he says stuff like how civ3 won't be using cutting edge graphics (quote:"3d extravaganza") so that many people would be able to play.

(Also posted in reply to Loki's question in the Buildings thread.)

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

I have to agree with almost everyone else here. A 3D engine as detailed as the BW one is wasted in a game like Civ.

I don't understand how being forced to specify where every tank in the entire division is on the field improves the game. I honestly don't want that much detail in a strategy game. Civ (for me ) is about controlling large numbers of units over a large area with a lot of cities and seeing how they react with other civs. This does not require being able to see every millimetre of my world. Talk about micromanagement getting out of hand...

My standard map size is 115x105 (SMAC) or 105x95 (Civ 2) because that is the biggest map my computer (P266MMX laptop, 48MB RAM) can handle at a decent speed. If I could play 1150x1050 I would. Can you imagine how long a single turn in 2010 on BW style map would take to play at that size?

Loki doesn't seem to want to run his civ, he seems to want to be a tourist in it. That's all good, but that's not Civ. That's life, and I thought that that's what The Sims was about. I'm sorry Loki, but the BW scale just doesn't match the style of game Civ is.


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"We are all greater artists than we realize."
-Nietzsche

[amjayee]

I'd like to bring some technical ideas to the discussion. I hope this will prove it could be entirely possible to make an engine Loki suggests, and that is playable. Then you perhaps could leave poor Loki alone and not tease him anymore.

1. Even if we have a map of whole Earth in the scale used in B&W, it wouldn't be necessary to draw all of it for each frame, hust the protion the player sees. This way, at maximum only half of the globe would be needed to draw.
2. Even if the map has details 10x10 cm's wide, it wouldn't mean trillions of polygons in each frame. By adding some intelligent code, the level of detail would be decreased when the object is farther.
3. The objects that are not in the player's sight would be handled simply with numbers. Also it wouldn't be necessary to know where every one of the billions of your people are and what they are doing. If people in certain area are handled as a population, all we need to know is what portion of them is attending to what profession, and what the every-day routines of each profession are. Then when player is away, the behavior of each group of people, population, is determined with simple statistical maths. When player comes, can be shown people moving about their tasks. Since there are very many people in the civ and the scale is thousands of years, this is quite enough.
4. The player would not need to adjust each tank millimeter by millimeter. Instead, he could order the whole unit move to certain area, and they would handle themselves. Then the player could micromanage the units if he likes... good AI and automation are the key to handle the MM.
5. Since the game lasts for thousands of years, it's not wise to manage your empire day-by-day. That would take a long time. Instead the game speed could be adjusted, like in X-COM: Apocalypse. When something serious happens, the speed would pause or slow down automatically.

So, with clever programming and design, it would be entirely possible to make a playable and detailed system. But would it be wise, is entirely different thing. Frankly, in civ game so much detail is not necessarily needed, as so many people have said.

But I admit I'd like that kind of game, too. Perhaps it should be an entirely different game. And perhaps in that game the player wouldn't play a 6000 year game, but rather shorter scenarios, and perhaps with a limited playing area, as in Age of Empires.

I'm sure in future there might be games like that, but I have to say it would require a massive amount of work and time to make such a game.

Meanwhile, Loki and all the others wanting more depth in the game, check out the Openciv3 project. Our website is http://civ3.sourceforge.net. No, we don't yet have plans of making a system suggested by Loki, but in future we are going to make a 3d map, and since it is open source, anything is possible in the future. Until that, we will concentrate making the "basic civ" game system, but with more depth than earlier. It is a good intermediate point on the way to Black & White Civilization.

Once again sorry for my ads.
[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited June 04, 2000).]

[meriadoc]

I've been playing Civ games for years now, ever since the release of Civ1... for DOS. And in all of these years, only two problems have kept coming up. The first is that it sometimes is hard to keep track of everything, but that has been getting better with each version of Civ. The second is the AI - I'm still waiting for a challenging AI.

Graphics are great, and more power to them, as long as the game is challenging and fun. Remember, Civ is closer to a board game than it is an action game. The graphics in CTP are the best I've seen in Civ games so far, and they're enough to keep me happy for a long time - just make the gameplay better.

What I would truly like to see in CivIII is a game that makes me feel like my opponents are real people.
[This message has been edited by meriadoc (edited June 05, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

I truly and 100% agree.

I mean, you should be able to do what the FreeCiv guys want to do --> design 2 different ai scripts that are so powerful that you'll be able to get an absorbing game just by pitting the two script against each other (as in with no humans).

Graphics is only a minor component.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...