New ressources ideas ?

[Akka]

I had though some time about new kind of ressources, as some in the game just feel strange to me (rubber, horses, aluminium...), but I just could not think of anything new and usable.
So well, I would welcome any ideas on what can be a ressource, particularly in industrial and modern times.

Oh, and I would like to be sure : in the editor, on the "disappearance probability" field, I think that the higher the number, the smaller the chance of the ressource running out. Am I right ?

[Moraelin]

Had a thread like this of my own, though it never got too many responses, so here's a brief summary:

1) Cats. Strategic resource, needed to build granaries. (Otherwise you're just building a feeding place for the rats.) I don't think it's possible to have it act as two things, but it should probably also count as a luxury. (Pets.)

2) TV's and other electronic luxuries. Since they can't be manufactured, they should grow in the desert. (I understand desert tiles are supposed to be valuable late in the game, which is why the AI insists on colonizing every single desert.)

3) Marijuana or Coke. Should make lots of people REALLY happy if you bring them into your towns :P

4) Game CD's. Luxury. They should probably just grow on trees, so you don't expect support for them. (Maybe jungle?)

5) Frying pans. Strategic. Needed as hub caps for any late game wheeled vehicles.

Frankly, compared to silliness such as needing natural Latex but no Iron to build Mech Infantry or Modern Armor, I think these should actually count as an improvement

[Wrong_shui]

89 Actinium (Ac)
13 Aluminum (Al)
95 Americium (Am)
51 Antimony (Sb)
18 Argon (Ar)
33 Arsenic (As)
85 Astatine (At)
56 Barium (Ba)
97 Berkelium (Bk)
4 Beryllium (Be)
83 Bismuth (Bi)
5 Boron (B)
35 Bromine (Br)
48 Cadmium (Cd)
20 Calcium (Ca)
98 Californium (Cf)
6 Carbon (C)
58 Cerium (Ce)
55 Cesium (Cs)
17 Chlorine (Cl)
24 Chromium (Cr)
27 Cobalt (Co)
29 Copper (Cu)
96 Curium (Cm)
66 Dysprosium (Dy)
99 Einsteinium (Es)
68 Erbium (Er)
63 Europium (Eu)
100 Fermium (Fm)
9 Fluorine (F)
87 Francium (Fr)
64 Gadolinium (Gd)
31 Gallium (Ga)
32 Germanium (Ge)
79 Gold (Au)
72 Hafnium (Hf)
2 Helium (He)
67 Holmium (Ho)
1 Hydrogen (H)
49 Indium (In)
53 Iodine (I)
77 Iridium (Ir)
26 Iron (Fe)
36 Krypton (Kr)
57 Lanthanum (La)
103 Lawrencium (Lr)
82 Lead (Pb)
3 Lithium (Li)
71 Lutetium (Lu)
12 Magnesium (Mg)
25 Manganese (Mn)
101 Mendelevium (Md)
80 Mercury (Hg)
42 Molybdenum (Mo)
60 Neodymium (Nd)
10 Neon (Ne)
93 Neptunium (Np)
28 Nickel (Ni)
41 Niobium (Nb)
7 Nitrogen (N)
102 Nobelium (No)
76 Osmium (Os)
8 Oxygen (O)
46 Palladium (Pd)
15 Phosphorus (P)
78 Platinum (Pt)
94 Plutonium (Pu)
84 Polonium (Po)
19 Potassium (K)
59 Praseodymium (Pr)
61 Promethium (Pm)
91 Protactinium (Pa)
88 Radium (Ra)
86 Radon (Rn)
75 Rhenium (Re)
45 Rhodium (Rh)
37 Rubidium (Rb)
44 Ruthenium (Ru)
62 Samarium (Sm)
21 Scandium (Sc)
34 Selenium (Se)
14 Silicon (Si)
47 Silver (Ag)
11 Sodium (Na)
38 Strontium (Sr)
16 Sulfur (S)
73 Tantalum (Ta)
43 Technetium (Tc)
52 Tellurium (Te)
65 Terbium (Tb)
81 Thallium (Tl)
90 Thorium (Th)
69 Thulium (Tm)
50 Tin (Sn)
22 Titanium (Ti)
92 Uranium (U)
23 Vanadium (V)
74 Wolfram (W)
54 Xenon (Xe)
70 Ytterbium (Yb)
39 Yttrium (Y)
30 Zinc (Zn)
40 Zirconium (Zr)

How some of these got left out I dont know

[Marla]

Very funny idea about cats...

Anyway, to be serious, a good bonus ressource would be to me Volcanos. Why that? because wheat grows ultra fast such the lands are fertile there !
You can see that there's really a lot of people living below a volcano, we can also think of cities like Pompeii, etc...
To me, Volcanos should be in the game, maybe with erruption catastrophes sometimes, it would be fun.

Luxury Ressources: Tobacco !!! Why do you think cubans don't care of american embargos ? they smoke ! that's the reason !
Why not rhum or sugarcane... I personnaly think gold should be a luxury ressource. Weed is also a good one (with an extra trade bonus)

Strategic ressources: hum... no ideas.

[uh Clem]

Coffee: strategic resource

Becomes available with Computer advance

Raises science output

[Moraelin]

Ooh, right, there was the excellent Coffee idea, too. Sorry I forgot about that

Tobacco is a great one, too. Was one of the main resources exported by everyone's colonies in America.

And yep, I find it a bit weird too that Gold isn't a luxury. It's always been used for jewellery.

[Akka]

Ah well, thank all for your input, but...
How to say that ?
I don't think it'll help me that much

I was wondering what ressource could be needed to build infantry rather than rubber

[Kc7mxo]

Actually, when europe first tried to trade wit the east they got a rude shock, they didn't have anything the chinese wanted.

so they hooked half the country on opium and took advantage of them that way. perhaps opium should be some sort of trade commodity you can force on an opponent, and piss them off. just like happens right now. can anyone say war on drugs?

[Sevorak]

That would be very amusing, opium as the negative luxury, something that creates unhappy faces...as terms for peace in an unsuccessful war, you FORCE them to accept opium from you...

-Sev

[LotC]

Actually, coffee and/or coke (more properly coca) wouldn't be such a bad idea for luxury resources. Considering that there are no luxuries found on mountain tiles these complement the other luxuries well.

Of course with coca you would have to mod the Americans to automatically declare war if you export it.

[Venger]

He he, Wrong_shui on the right track again...

Until the gameplay with EXISTING resources is fixed, I'm hesitant to adjust them. That said, I'd like to increase the number or resources and luxuries but reduce their abundance.

Add:

Coffee
Tobacco
Sugar
Copper
Bauxite
Titanium

etc...

The luxuries of Sugar, etc. would be rarer - i.e. no clumps of 4 in two places. But there would be more. A chance for more cities to have one or two, with 1 surplus to trade.

As to resources - you would need to change drastically how these resources affect the game.

A much BETTER system for strategic resources would be that having oil or copper or iron would allow construction of a slightly better VARIANT of a unit, rather than making the unit dependant on it.

Example:

Tank - as soon as you research the tech, you can build it.
Superior Tank - can be built with oil and iron - has +1 attack and +1 defense.
Battleship - as soon as you research the tech, you can build it.
Improved Battleship - can be built with oil, iron, and uranium, + 2 defense and +1 move.

This would give you a nice bonus if you secured these resources, but wouldn't totally f@ck you if you don't. This REALLY helps the AI, because they are ridiculously easy to conquer (like the French). But securing a resource can give you a slight but sometimes crucial advantage.

This type of smart thinking with resources gives you a nice palpable bonus, without making the the spotty resources totally make or break a game (and let's be honest, these "resources" are found all over the world, to pretend that oil is only found in a couple spots is goofy).

Resources are a nice concept that couldn't POSSIBLY have been gameplay tested for balance.

Venger

[Terser]

Luxuries:
-Cocoa: (+1 food, +1 commerce).

-Oysters: (+1 food, +2 commerce). Not certain how this would be implemented, since water squares currently do not "connect" to cities in the same way land squares do. Could just say that any city with oysters in its' cultural radius gets the benefit of oysters on the half shell and a hand full of pearls to please the peons.

-Platinum: (+1 shields, +2 commerce). This might also be classified as a strat resource, as platinum is used quite frequently in electronic devices.

Strategic resources:

Lead: (+2 shields, +1 commerce) This one seems so obvious to me it ain't even funny. Lead is used extensively both in civilian products and military hardware (i.e. bullets).

[YC4B4U]

Originally posted by Venger

As to resources - you would need to change drastically how these resources affect the game.

A much BETTER system for strategic resources would be that having oil or copper or iron would allow construction of a slightly better VARIANT of a unit, rather than making the unit dependant on it.

Example:

Tank - as soon as you research the tech, you can build it.
Superior Tank - can be built with oil and iron - has +1 attack and +1 defense.
Battleship - as soon as you research the tech, you can build it.
Improved Battleship - can be built with oil, iron, and uranium, + 2 defense and +1 move.

This would give you a nice bonus if you secured these resources, but wouldn't totally f@ck you if you don't. This REALLY helps the AI, because they are ridiculously easy to conquer (like the French). But securing a resource can give you a slight but sometimes crucial advantage.

This type of smart thinking with resources gives you a nice palpable bonus, without making the the spotty resources totally make or break a game (and let's be honest, these "resources" are found all over the world, to pretend that oil is only found in a couple spots is goofy).

Venger

Here, here! Couldn't agree more.

I would have to check but I assume that coal and iron are pretty well everywhere! Rare minerals would be better for strategic resources.

Alternatively you could change it such that the first horse Units require horses (ie Horseman), after that Knights and Cavalry don't require horses (because you have bred them) but Superior Knights and Calvalry require horses and have +1 speed / defence / attack (whatever) as a new unit - because you have access to pure bred horses they are better.

This is similar to the theory behind riflemen not requiring saltpeter.

I like the idea of nuclear powered Battleships - only available after Nuclear Power - move further but require more shields.

Other thoughts for resources:

Herbs (various - luxury)
Trees (different types which maybe better for ship building or stronger foot soldier shields)
Camels (well you have horses)
There are also rare gases required for lasers (future tech anyone?)

Anyone know how they make Stealth material? (Oh, silly question...)

[Venger]

Good call on lead Terser. You also may have the single greatest signature quote in Apolyton history...

Venger

[sophist]

Originally posted by YC4B4U

Alternatively you could change it such that the first horse Units require horses (ie Horseman), after that Knights and Cavalry don't require horses (because you have bred them) but Superior Knights and Calvalry require horses and have +1 speed / defence / attack (whatever) as a new unit - because you have access to pure bred horses they are better.

Pure bred horses? As opposed to what, bred with dogs? Domesticated breeds would be the superior ones anyway, as they would be more tame (and more easily trained) and would be bred for strength, speed, intelligence, and so forth.

[YC4B4U]

Originally posted by sophist


Pure bred horses? As opposed to what, bred with dogs? Domesticated breeds would be the superior ones anyway, as they would be more tame (and more easily trained) and would be bred for strength, speed, intelligence, and so forth.

I guess I ran into that one With your knowledge of horses - do you have any better ideas - ie perhaps a new building - the stable which allows you to build advanced horse units.

[Venger]

Hmmm...stables or Hippodrome improvement that would allow horse units. Possible, not a bad idea.

We do reach a point of bulding saturation though.

Still, I think a stables unit could produce horse units with +1 move maybe? A thought...

Venger

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by sophist


Pure bred horses? As opposed to what, bred with dogs? Domesticated breeds would be the superior ones anyway, as they would be more tame (and more easily trained) and would be bred for strength, speed, intelligence, and so forth.

But, put realism aside for a moment. YES, realism is important, but so is gameplay and balance. You need to give those Civs which DO have access to the resource SOME sort of advantage, and one that lasts longer than the ten turns horsemen rule the battlefield.

I'm sure someone can come up with some kind of realistic reason why those with access to actual wild horses would be able to build elite versions of units. And if not, oh well, for most other resources, Venger's idea works great.

And best of all, unlike some ideas, Venger's is easy to put in a mod with even the paltry version of the editor we have now :>

Man, I'm getting the mod-building itch. The only problem is I'm sure anything I make would already have been done, probably better. I haven't even tried other people's mods yet.

[Moraelin]

Actually, I can't think of a single good reason why you'd need access to wild horses, once you have 50 cavalry divisions already. Why not breed your own? (E.g., America had no wild horses to start with, they were brought from Europe by the colonists. The wild horses are simply domestic horses that got lost. Either way, it didn't prevent both the colonists AND the native indians from having cavalry.)

The siliness of THAT was the whole reason I proposed cats as a strategic resource.

As for Infantry, I'm still thinking about it, but Latex (natural rubber) definitely is NOT it. Other than condoms and chewing gum, I can't think of anything that COULD even use Latex and the soldiers would need at all. (No, truck tyres are not made of Latex, so even that's not an excuse.)

Same for Marines. Wth do they need Latex for? Those "rubber boats" are actually reinforced synthetic compounds, that don't pop too easily when hit by small arms fire.

Frankly, the whole strategic resource system looks like something slapped together in a hury, not like something based on ANY research.

For the other stuff, personally I modded it as follows:

- Tanks: Oil and Iron. (There are tens of tons of iron in each tank. Don't tell me they're made of Oil and Latex. A rubber tank is at most a decoy.)

- Mech Infantry: Oil, Iron, Aluminum

- Modern Armor: Oil, Iron, Aluminum

[Akka]

Originally posted by Moraelin
Actually, I can't think of a single good reason why you'd need access to wild horses, once you have 50 cavalry divisions already. Why not breed your own? (E.g., America had no wild horses to start with, they were brought from Europe by the colonists. The wild horses are simply domestic horses that got lost. Either way, it didn't prevent both the colonists AND the native indians from having cavalry.)

The siliness of THAT was the whole reason I proposed cats as a strategic resource.

As for Infantry, I'm still thinking about it, but Latex (natural rubber) definitely is NOT it. Other than condoms and chewing gum, I can't think of anything that COULD even use Latex and the soldiers would need at all. (No, truck tyres are not made of Latex, so even that's not an excuse.)

Same for Marines. Wth do they need Latex for? Those "rubber boats" are actually reinforced synthetic compounds, that don't pop too easily when hit by small arms fire.

That's exactly why I started this thread : actually, except for uranium, oil and coal, either we produce synthetic materials, either there is such huge amount of natural ones (iron, aluminium...) that basically nobody lack them in the world. I like the ressources system, but requiring rubber and horses is just silly (one barely has any purpose, other just need to be bred). So I hoped that people would have better ideas than mines to find strategic ressources and allow building of advanced units.

[Moraelin]

Actually I'm thinking that what the game should really take into account is: cost.

If I lack a resource, I should still be able to build that unit, but each lacking resource would add, say, +50% to the shield cost. That way those who have a resource would still have an advantage, while the poor AI could still build advanced units. Just not as many, if he lacks the resources.

Realistically, a lot more stuff can be produced than you think, and there are a lot of alternatives. Only they're more expensive. So I think it's very realistic to assume that:

- I COULD breed my own horses, but just having an endless supply of wild ones is cheaper.

- I COULD produce my own synthetic diesel fuel for those tanks (maybe with a minor wonder), since that technology existed for a long time, but it would be more expensive than just having Oil.

- I COULD put a lot of effort into controled fusion instead of fission, if I totally lack uranium, but again it would be more expensive.

- I COULD use other materials than Aluminum to build airplanes (e.g., wooden airplanes have actually been used in WW2. Wood can actually take a lot of punishment before breaking. Or I could use some synthetic compounds. Or whatever.) But just having aluminum is better.

Alternately, you can just think of the extra cost as getting those materials by smuggling, black market, whatever. It costs more and doesn't bring me as much of it as just having that resource, but it's still possible.

[Mokael]

hmm ...

Timber - forest Tiles, + 2 production, +1 commerce. Required for Frigates, Galleons, and Man-o-War (didn't CTP2 had Timber as tradeable good?)

Gold should be a tradeable luxury as well

[Akka]

Originally posted by Moraelin
- I COULD put a lot of effort into controled fusion instead of fission, if I totally lack uranium, but again it would be more expensive.

Well, controlled fusion is such an improvement beyond fission that I really can't see it as a remedial solution...