The good old days

[CapTVK]

Google finally made the usenet archives available dating back to the early '80's. I decided to see what I could find on the original Civ and found this by Paul Maclauchlan in rec.games.misc dated 1992-01-16


Enjoy...

I "attended" a Microprose/Civilization Round Table Conference (RTC) on
GEnie last night. The guests were Sid Meier and Bruce Shelly, authors
and designers of Civilization.

There were some good strategy questions, and a few of the answers from
Sid and Bruce addressed issues that have been discussed on rec.games.misc.

Here are some excerpts from the RTC:

...
<[JOHN] J.TERRA>
First of all, hats off to an absolutely excellent game...as well as Railroad
Tycoon...they are my two favorites. My first question, is it my imagination,
or do competing civilizations get their knowledge a lot quicker once the 20th
century rolls around? In other wrods, does the computer cheat? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>

In general, the computer does not cheat. There is a certain amount of
advantages/disadvantages built into the Difficualty Levels. If you see a
civilization making rapid tech. advances it might be a Democracy\Republic,
which nearly doubles the rate of tech. advances. Another method of advancing
is by trading technologies with other civilizations. ga
...
<[paul] P.MACLAUCHLA>
Can I abandon a city so that a conquering tribe can't steal an advance from
me? ga

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
No, we had that feature in the game for a while but it seemed unrealistic to
eliminate an entire city and its population with one keystroke. It also make
conquering territory both a military and a political\economic problem, which
is what the game is about. ga
...
<[paul] P.MACLAUCHLA>
Is civil war covered in the manual? Why does it occur? Great game...
Thanks! :-) ga done

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Civil wars occur very rarely and only in cities which are in disorder or have
an equal number or happy and unhappy citizens. ga
...
<[Conrad] C.EVANS7>
Will there be a minor maintenance release to fix the norther landmass
appearance and city screen problems? GA Done

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
We are working with QA to document and correct any current problems. ga
...
<[martin] M.GLAZER> fantastic game sid. any chance that we will get modem play?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Sorry, modem play is not likely. We made a lot of decisions which improved
the one player version but which would make a multi player version more
difficult. ga
...

Sid - I'd like to know what your three favorite NON-MICROPROSE games are?
(Reverse registeration card, eh). Bruce - same question. GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
EMPIRE, SIM CITY, and an old game called The SENTRY. I'll also add my all
time favorite SEVEN CITIES of GOLD. ga
...

What is the method the program uses to automatically allocate land for
development during normal population growth? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
The computer picks what it thinks is best, supplying food first, then
resources, and then trade. ga
...
Is there such a thing as a trustworthy computer-run civilization? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Well, a civilization that is at war with three other civs is likely to be
trustworthy. At least until those wars are concluded. In general, Lincoln
and Gandhi are the most trustworthy. G. Khan is not to be trusted. ga
...

Since I got the game I haven't had a full night's sleep! That's the best
compliment I can think of. DONE
...

IThis question may have asked, but, Has either one of you played the Board
game Civilization by Avalon Hill?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Yes, we've all player the AH game, Bruce used to work at AH. ga
...
<[mel] M.CHIN5>
Both RRT and Civ are thoroughly addicting one-player games. Do you plan on
any multi-player games such as these? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Dan Bunten is writing some good multi-player games: Command HQ, etc. He's
working on one now called Global Conquest. I'm not sure what we'll do next.
...
<[mel] M.CHIN5> Do you have any ideas for your next project? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
We've got a French and German version of CIV which we're finishing up now.
After that we'll start thinking about new game ideas. ga
...
<[Dondo] D.ALDRICH1>
Hi again. I am afraid the "details" are **not** in the manual concerning two
WOWs--Copernicus doubles effect of knowledge production, but Newton
"increases the benefit" of U's & L's;same for Michelangelo. What exactly is
effect?GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Newton increases libraries and U's by 50% Mike's chapel increases the benefit
of catherals from 4 happy improvements to 6 happy improvements. These
effects were being fine tuned when the manual was being written. ga
...
<[Dan & Mark] DEWEY>
Two questions concerning things that aren't in the manual (I have read all of
all of them, but I might be wrong). First, what is the choice "subvert
city"? Why does it cost twice as much? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Subvert city has the same effect as Incite revolt except that Incite causes
the other civ to declare war on you. Subvert can be done without causing a
war. ga
...

At prince level, I captured Paris and got a bank, court, and temple. I
quit, reloaded, recaptured, and got barracks and granary. The third time
I got a bank and barracks. What gives? Also, is this related to the
seemingly random generation of wonders by computer players?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Variability is built into the game. Things are... designed not to happen the
same way each time. ga


Maybe, but how can the computer have different improvements at the same time
if there are three different sets at the same turn in a game? ga

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
When you capture a city some of the improvement remain and some are
destroyed. Those which are destroyed will vary each time you capture the
city. You are seeing the improvements which remain undestroyed. ga
...
<[Bobo] F.FREECE1>
Why no chance to immediatly restart after quitting? Or at least after winning?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
It turned out to be very difficult to reliable reset all the game variables
without reloading the game. To be safe we require a reload.
...
<[Bobo] F.FREECE1> What games do you play when not designing? Any favorites?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Favorite games: EMPIRE, COVERT ACTION, SEVEN CITIES of GOLD.
...

I wanted to know if I should watch out for 'liberties' taken by the
computer. for instance, in RRT, the computer expanded from his stations in
all directions. what about CIV, any 'funny' computer stuff I shuold look
for?

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
In general, the computer plays by the same rules as the player. The
difficulty levels adjust certain factors in the players favor or the
computer's favor. ga
...
<[Wendy & John] WENDYSUE>
Is there any advantage to having more than one or two units fortifying a
city? I tend to overfortify...is that why I'm in the Dan Quayle ranks? GA

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Yes, each unit will help to keep the population from disorder (unless you are
in Dem\Rep). Also each unit gets a chance do defend the city if it is
attacked. I usually keep at least two defensive units in each city. ga
...
<[Speed Demon] D.DUSSIAS>
Yeah, I was wondering whats your background Sid or Bruce, like what did you
major in, & what do you develope on, and what language do you use? ga

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Sid: I have a degree in Comp. Science from the University of Michigan. I've
been writing games for about 10 years. First on the ATARI 800, then the C-64,
and now on the IBM. Most of our programs are written in C.

Bruce: I have a degree in Forest Biology from Syracuse University and the
SUNY College of Forestry, Graduate school in economics at UVA, Been working
on games for over 11 years
...
'I will send ya surface mail some ideas if ya care to read them

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
Sure, we're always interested in whmat our player's suggestions. ga
...
<[paul] P.MACLAUCHLA>
Is it my imagination, or does the "Go To" instruction sometimes use a
non-direct route? ga

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
The GoTo command has a few weaknesses. It will try to use roads if possible
and this may lead to an indirect route. Its best to move a unit yourself
unless you're not to conerned about when it gets to its destination. ga
...
<[paul] P.MACLAUCHLA>
Is it possible to win a game with an economic rather than military strategy? ga

<[Sid & Bruce] MICROPROSE>
It is possible but not easy. With a large treasury you can Subvert enemy
cities, bribe enemy units, and buy peace with other civs. This can get
pretty expensive though. A mixture of economic and military strategies is
usually most effective. ga
...



I hope you found some of the exchanges interesting!

--

P.S

There's tons more available if you take the time to browse through the usenet archives. Happy hunting!

[CapTVK]

I have no idea where the headline "Microbitti`s Positive Spin " came from. My thread title was supposed to be "The good old days"

[Ming]

Originally posted by CapTVK
I have no idea where the headline "Microbitti`s Positive Spin " came from. My thread title was supposed to be "The good old days"

I have no clue what happened... but it was an easy change to make

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Ming


I have no clue what happened... but it was an easy change to make

Thanks Ming

P.S

Any chance you posted something on usenet (or via BBS) in those days?

[Ming]

Originally posted by CapTVK
Any chance you posted something on usenet (or via BBS) in those days?

Nahhhh.... I was on Plato in the mid 70's... but I wasn't on the Internet until the 90's.

[CapTVK]

Interested in what some people thought when Civ2 came out? In general the response was okay. But this is usenet right? Here are some more discussions. (names removed and added quick commentary here and there).

Usenet regulars might recognize a poster or two in this thread. Can you guess?

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:...easyaccess.com

> >> >> I am a CIV fan, so don't get me wrong. I've finished the old one on every
> >> >> level of difficulty, without cheating. Almost the same goes to Colonization
> >> >> (DOS-based), which is also one of my favorite games.
> >> >> Anyway, back to the topic.
> >> >> First of all, i hate Windows-based games. They are ugly, stupid and veeeeeeeery
> >> >> slow, copared to DOS-based ones. Even on my Pentium, CIV II is simply not
> >> >> playable.
> >> >> Secondly, they always tend to require lots of memory.
> >> >> These days 8 mb is only "bare minimum" and you often loose some of the
> >> >> features, like in CIV II you loose 3D sequences. Note: Civ2 had some extra's in the diplomacy screen which included animated heralds (simple 3d animated). They didn't add much to game
> >> >> And finally, CIV II is, in fact, the old CIV converted to the Windows format. Civ2 DID add new things, but in general the game remained the same. Never change a winning team right?
> >> >> It doesn't even support multiplayer mode, when the CIV structure is perfect
> >> >> for E-mail gameplay!
> >> >> What i was hoping it to be was an improved CIV with better graphics, which
> >> >> suck in CIV II (i quite liked the Colonization style of graphics, by the way),
> >> >> multiplayer mode support, which would be the whole new dimention to the game,
> >> >> new civilization advances straight from the beginning (i don't think the
> >> >> original CIV advances were perfect, so why do they keep the structure in its
> >> >> original form?) and, of corse, a DOS version of CIV II.
> >> >> What a disappointment...
> >> >
> >> >Fortunately, you are one of few who feel this way. The overall
> >> >response to this game has been good, and in my opinion, you were given
> >> >exactly what you asked for in regards to improvements. You fail to see
> >> >what is before you. The ONLY thing that I agree with in your entire
> >> >post is the multiplayer option,
> >>
> >> And that is the ONLY thing i would buy the game for, even if it was
> >> Windows based.
> >>
> >> >The ONLY thing that I agree with in your entire
> >> >post is the multiplayer option, but not by mail method.
> >>
> >> Tell me your method.
> >>
> >> >I suggest you
> >> >take another look at what you asked for. You seem to have a
> >> >preconcieved opinion about anything that is Windows based,
> >>Here comes the fanboy/whiner debate
> >> Wrong.
> >> As i said before, i dislike only GAMES that are Windows
> >> based. Mostly because of their speed.
> >>
> >> >therefore I
> >> >doubt ANYTHING would meet your approval.
> >>
> >> As i already said a DOS version of the game would be quite
> >> acceptable.
> >>
> >> >I suspect that there are
> >> >some other reasons for your opinion that have NOTHING to do with the
> >> >game itself.
> >>
> >> All the reasons are outlined aboved. As i see it, those are more
> >> then enough to be dissatisfied with the game.
> >>
> >> >Try playing the game for a while and then make an
> >> >EDUCATED opinion instead of a weak poorly done overview of what you
> >> >WANT it to be..............
> >>
> >> I DID play the game for a while and only after that made this "weak
> >> poorly overview". But even that "weak poorly overview" has more arguments
> >> then your "EDUCATED opinion", the only argument of which is "you fail
> >> to see what is before you". All i see before me was written above.
> >> Civ II is a conversion of the original to the Windows format which
> >> makes it slower, uglier and requiring more system resources than
> >> this kind of games would ever need! Even that was not enough, they
> >> decided to be especially cruel not implementing the multiplayer
> >> option!!
> >>
> >> name removed
> >> ******** For Gods sake, get it right..you are talking about Civilization for Windows, NOT Civilization II. Civ II has -
> >more units, better 3D graphics, the gameplays a a fine speed on my DX4-100, 16Meg, 2Meg Video, so I would say
> >there is something wrong with your pentium !!!
> >--
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >********** name removed
> >********************
> >*****************
> >
> >"May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back,
> >May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields,
> >And until we meet again may God hold you in the hollow of his hand"
> > - Old Irish Blessing
> >
> >"Just Reach Out and He'll reach in,
> >take your broken heart and make it whole again
> >It don't matter who you are or we're you've been,
> >Just Reach Out and He'll reach in"
> > "Just Reach Out"
> > Petra from "Wake Up Call"
> >
> >"For the want of a compass, we'd be shuffling charts,
> >For the want of good radar, we'd be glacier parts,
> >For the want of a lighthouse, can't you see,
> >we'd be lost at sea, lost at sea"
> > "It's All Who You Know"
> > Newsboys from "Take me to your leader"
>
> I personally love Civ2 (o.k. I have a decent P133 and a VERY fast
> graphics card. The problem in Civ2 is that it is still hypertext-based
> (you know, like a web page). I showed it to a mate who loved Civ1DOS
> and he loathed it due to the the new perspective - or rather the typical
> 3D **** as he usually refers to it. As I said, I like it but I would
> have preferred the 2D perspective as a kind of 'bridge'. the only thing (actually it's isometric, not 3d in that sense)
> where the new perspective really can be a nuisance is with planes - you
> know the sad fact that a plane has to return to a city square. In opinion
> they could have kicked ou the video nonsense abut these days you have to
> have or the hing does not sell. The down-side of things is that you
> cannot add stuff - like they did with Civ1DOS: a few more wonders, a few
> rule alterations etc. I would have preferred it had MPS used a few
> scanned (or preferable well-drawn) hi-res pictures of the wonders. They
> might also have been able to add things on a more flexible basis.The thing that made Civilization II sucks is that the programmers did not
write the game codes short!!! Like old days, people could write a program
with 10k run perfectly. Now, people didn't care about coding so the wrote
the program longer. The total of the space for Civ II was almost 550
MEGS!! If they had good programmers, this game would be about 100 megs
and the game with run faster. If you cut all the movies, sounds and other crap, Civ2 is about 10-14 megs)

Please note that I only selected one particular message from a thread.You shouldn't take this post as the "general public opinion" At the time the response to Civ2 was quite positive. There were no bugs in the game itself and came with two scenarios (Rome and WW2) and Microprose also released a couple of scenarios on a monthly basis (soon cancelled in favour of the fantastic worlds scen disk) and it scored in the 80's and 90's, strangely enough lower than with Civ3 is receiving now!?

[CapTVK]

edit: double post